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Cold weather starting

Started by concretecutter, January 03, 2016, 05:49:24 PM

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Gary_C

Quote from: Jhenderson on January 06, 2016, 08:23:10 AM
Sometimes it's tough to keep it friendly when people intentionally confuse opinion and fact.

Funny how there's no direct reference to someone who's had trouble, just " I'm warning you".

Sorry to have been busy with other things and have now come back to this issue to find you are having difficulty being friendly. 

I have some difficulty understanding your point when you seem to vigorously defend this practice and at the same time deny there is any risk with the split swapping practice. As others have since related, there are certainly factual cases of trouble and though I earlier did not feel it necessary to get into specific cases as I just related a simple cautionary note that there were issues, I will tell you of just one of many cases where I have personal knowledge.

A logger I know had a fairly new pickup which was still under warranty and he had some engine issues and took the pickup back to the dealer for service. When the mechanic saw the split swappers, the dealer voided the engine warranty and refused to service the engine problems. That alone is good reason to be cautious of the practice.

This cold shock issue is not just a problem with split swappers. Anybody with any sense knows better than to pour cold water into an overheated engine. It's all a matter of temperature difference.

Sorry, but denying that cold shock is an issue is beyond my understanding.  ::)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Jhenderson

There are not cases listed. There's one case, second hand. That's in four decades. Everyone has heard there may be a problem, but they haven't had one. I was discussing this yesterday with a friend who's run an automotive machine shop for over 30 years. Probably more knowledgeable than anyone here. He stated emphaticly " there is not enough thermal difference in 250f degrees to crack a block or head. Almost 100 years ago folks learned as long a an engine is running you can add cold water to an over heated engine without damage. That's with scorching hot cylinder walls and head". Maybe they've learned something sense you broke the block on your modle A with a cold water refil. We also read where a member asked his dealer about it and was told no problem as long as the coolant matched. I think there's a lot more to your story than you know or may be letting on.

beenthere

JH
I just read this "old sayin".. and think it fits...

QuoteIf Danny Gary_C tells you it's Easter, I would say you better start dyeing eggs.    :D      (old saying my younger late brother would say)
my edit...
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Bandmill Bandit

JH I have repaired more than one engine from cold shock for other people too many times HOWEVER it was from the failure of water to water heat exchanger failures on irrigation engines.

I have fixed over heated engines that were running as cold water was added to them. coolant level was too low and the heads cracked.

I am 100% sure that a split swapper WILL cause a problem IF they are not used properly and with caution.

My  experience in fixing engines is the reason I built my little control box and the basic design comes from a hot water heating system that was in my dairy barn designed to keep from dumping straight cold water into heating chamber of the boiler. The guy that installed the heating system in the barn pretty much made a drwaing and provided the parts for the control box and then taught me how to use it.


I treated my hot, running engine as the boiler in the system. The other engine was the cold cement slab that need to be warmed up.

Like I said it was probably over kill BUT I never had a problem by being cautious.   
 
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Gary_C

Quote from: Jhenderson on January 07, 2016, 08:39:13 AM
I was discussing this yesterday with a friend who's run an automotive machine shop for over 30 years. Probably more knowledgeable than anyone here. He stated emphaticly " there is not enough thermal difference in 250f degrees to crack a block or head.

Sorry but you don't know me so your claim lacks credibility. What your friend stated is also proof of his lack of real knowledge of heat transfer, coefficient of thermal expansion, and temperature differences. So your credibility has been shattered as I have known since the beginning of this topic.

Denying that thermal shock can be a problem is beyond belief.  ::)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

snowstorm

i used to use them. the last time was 25 yrs ago when one of the plastic tees broke and i got covered with antifreeze. as much as i paid for a new diesel pickup i would not even think of using them

Ed_K

One benefit of the gen set and block heater is you can always put the geny in a sled or wagon and get it to the block heater. It worked for me this morning when I couldn't get the pickup up an icy hill to the skidder  :( ;D .
Ed K

Bandmill Bandit

i know one guy that took a webasto heater and set it up on his service truck so he could use it heat cold engines in general instead of just one rig. Works real good and takes about a half hour to 45 minutes. for a good sized I6 engine.
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

jd540b

I used them in my old truck with great success.  That being said, I agree with snowstorm-I wouldn't even think of putting them on my new pick-up.

Offthebeatenpath

X2 to JD540 and Snowstorm. 

To me, this topic (borderline argument) is similar to people debating the usefulness of a skid steer wood splitter. Some people love those splitters and we all should agree that they work. Some say that the actual costs and/or potential cost of maintenance on a skid steer engine/hydraulic system is not worth it, given that wood splitters are pretty cheap.

Personally, I removed the spit swapper that came with my 440D and installed a block heater that I love. It just seemed like the potential for engine damage was much less and I can always get my little generator to the skidder, where the same is not always true for the truck.

JHenderson- I generally really enjoy reading your posts, as you have years of valid experience to share. I can guarantee that you are a much better mechanic than I am with much more knowledge on that front. That said, when you make comments like your friend is "probably more knowledgable than anyone here", you make a mockery of every single person who contributes to this wonderful forum, yourself included. You might want to dial that back a bit, because offending everybody isn't a great way to get folks to listen to your point.

1985 JD 440D, ASV tracked skid steer w/ winch, Fecon grapple, & various attachments, Hitachi CG-30 tracked dump truck, CanyCom S25 crawler carrier, Volvo EC35C mini-ex, Kubota 018-4 mini-ex, Cormidi 100 self loading tracked dumper, various other little trail building machines and tools...

Bandmill Bandit

A 2000 Watt circulating block heater will warm an engine up enough in an hour that they will generally start unless it 40* below with a stiff breeze. but a tarp wil help solve that wind exposure problem

 
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Jhenderson

Offthebeatenpath. I said what I did in full confidence. My friend in the machine shop holds NASE certification in automotive engine machining and repair as well as 4 other general disciplines. Has for 30 years.  Anybody else here hold those credentials? As for me not having any credibility, I simply consider the source of that remark. I left that on the playground long ago.  Over 30 years of the practice of coolant transfers with no trouble as well as watching at least 5 other crews in my state use the same setup with no problems tells the story. As for shocking the motor some of you are either ignoring or forgetting there are 4 sets of quick connects in the system. Combine that restriction with the fact that a water pump is incapable of making any real pressure and you'll see coolant isn't moving fast enough to shock cool anything.

OH logger

Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on January 08, 2016, 12:28:09 PM
A 2000 Watt circulating block heater will warm an engine up enough in an hour that they will generally start unless it 40* below with a stiff breeze. but a tarp wil help solve that wind exposure problem

 
that brings up a question I have always had. they say wind chill only affects living things by makin them colder, does it affect machines in a cold wind???
john

Oliver05262

 The wind chill affects living tissue by evaporating moisture off our skin, and the blood circulating through that tissue is cooled in turn. This evaporation will reduce the skin temperature below air temperature.
  Machinery does not have that evaporation effect, so the cold air can reduce the surface temperature no lower than the ambient temperature. It does, however, keep trying to cool that surface, so blocking the wind creates an insulation of still air around the metal you are trying to heat.
Oliver Durand
"You can't do wrong by doing good"
It's OK to cry.
I never did say goodby to my invisible friend.
"I woke up still not dead again today" Willy
Don't use force-get a bigger hammer.

OH logger

john

snowstorm

the way i see it is if you own it do what you want with it. heat it any way you want. if it causes a problem in a truck under warranty ford gm or dodge whoever built the truck can deny it. the dealer has to get approval on warranty work

Skidder Kev

We have a 2800 suitcase genny that we bring to the job.  most of the time the skidder will start good up to -20c on its own but the skid steer doesnt like the cold. so at about 10am I will fire up the genny to get the skidsteer warming up and it will be ready for the boss when he gets out of the bush at 11-1130 so we can do the landing and have lunch.  Plus it will run a microwave so we can have a hot lunch too. 

Kev

Jhenderson

Snowstorm, you're spot on. If the modification causes a problem, they can and will deny warranty. If you plug your cooling system because of dirty or uncompatible coolant in the skidder it's your problem. However they cannot deny warranty on unrelated matters. That falls under the Magnuson Moss Act which states that the manufacturer has the burden of proving your modification caused the failure before denying warranty.

Gary_C

Quote from: Jhenderson on January 10, 2016, 07:35:36 PM
However they cannot deny warranty on unrelated matters. That falls under the Magnuson Moss Act which states that the manufacturer has the burden of proving your modification caused the failure before denying warranty.

First you deny the warnings that many posters have made about your method which you feel compelled to defend while insulting the others on this form. Now you are dispensing some extremely dangerous legal advice. If you feel so strongly that you are right, why don't you next post your name, address, and bank account number so you can stand behind your very bad and dangerous advice?

I pity anyone that takes your legal advice because what you are doing with these split swappers is changing the intended use of the warm vehicle from transportation to being an external heat exchanger for another engine and not only will they be left with a very expensive repair bill but an even higher legal bill when your claim is dismissed and they are assessed legal costs from the dealer or manufacturer.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Bandmill Bandit

I know that stupid cant be fixed with any thing BUT duct tape does reduce the noise a LOT.

Mods; I'm sorry to have said it like this and this is not meant to offend but it is time to shut this one OFF.

Mr Henderson you need spend the rest of the year in detention and I think you owe a lot of people an apology.

Oh, Oh sorry i forgot this isn't junior High   

Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Jhenderson

Funny how warnings from folks with no personal experience count more than my 30+ years of using the system. Did anyone bother to look up Magnuson Moss? I didn't think so. As for insulting members; if telling the truth is an insult I'm guilty. I thought this site was for an exchange of information and ideas. Had I known it was intended to be a mutual admiration society I'd have looked elsewhere. If you really need to get in touch with me Send me a PM.As for a time out,all I need is a note from the moderator and I'll be gone for good.

jd540b

Here's a thought.  If you are NOT worried about your truck-put spit swappers on. They do work great.  If you ARE worried, don't put them on.  Ego's Anyone???
Next topic.

Gary_C

I can't speak for the moderators but I for one do NOT want you to be "gone for good." This forum is very valuable for the information everyone can gain from all posters. Your success with this cold starting method is valuable for everyone to know in deciding the best way to start cold engines and we all know others that have had similar success with that method.

The problem has been when you dismiss other valuable members input on the risks of your method and insult their intelligence. That is where you crossed the line of being a valuable poster. No one has ever denied the truth of your experiences and we all know others that have had similar successes, but attacking other posters for pointing out the pitfalls of your chosen method is not welcome.

Now as far as your question about Magnuson Moss, I am familiar with the act and I did review it before I answered your question. So your "thinking" is not appropriate again. If you do read the act, you will find that warrantys must be in writing and in every warranty will state clearly by the manufacturer that it covers the vehicle for the specific "intended use". Any use outside of the intended use will void the warranty and even after the warranty has expired, that is a risk that most people, myself included are simply not willing to take. That unwillingness is not an attack on your method or personal experiences, it is simply a decision I/we have reached after evaluating all inputs.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Jhenderson

I'm going to say enough is enough. I've never been accused of being delicate. I did not mean to diminish anyone here on the forum, but I do stand by my facts. I won't respond again until someone posts a problem they ( not someone they heard of) had because of this practice. Anybody who wants more info can PM me.

coxy

just my way of thinking  if it don't start with jumpers and a can of ether its to darn cold to work anyway  ;D that's my story and im sticking to it  :D :D

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