Concern on Sawmilling Black Walnuts

[Bru]

Ben:
get onto the state of Illinois gov't website, go to the DNR site, then to the map of forestry districts to find out which forester's district you fall into, and then you can contact the forester for any advice he may have.  Be advised, tho:
  The foresters are being thinned out by the combination of (started during the Blago administration) of "sweeping" statutorily-dedicated funds such as the stumpage taxes out of the DNR and into the general funds, and the general state of financial disrepair of the state.  Your forester may not have enough help doing his primary job to be able to help you.

If you are looking at any established sawmill, go to the timber buyers' licensee site and make sure you are not dealing with some person or entity which has been recently sanctioned for cheating customers, or wrongful timbering, etc.  The info is there once you learn how to read it.

The state foresters cannot recommend particular operators.  However, sometimes a forester will answer a question such as "who did you have sawing ro you the last time you had timber to saw?" Or, "if you were me, is there anyone you would avoid?"

You might also check the Woodmizer or other mill manufacturers' sites--they may have lists of mill operators soliciting business in your area.

[Ianab]

With all of this said, there is no way we could afford the 3-5 thousand you would be talking as an input cost.  So selling some in log form may be needed to meet the input cost.

Have you thought about selling some of it sawn, green and "log run"? Basically just sawn and loaded onto the customers pickup or trailer to take away and dry?

Even at $1 a bd/ft our hypothetical log nets you $800-$900 dollars, with $270 going to the sawyer. He saws a couple more logs for you at the same time, and some wood worker gets a great deal on some nice walnut, sawn to his requirements. You know what the hypothetical "retail" value is, so you know you can give someone a great deal, AND still make a tidy profit yourself. The nature of walnut makes it practical to sell green as it's easy enough for the customer to air dry.

You wouldn't have to process the whole lot at one time, just enough log to make the sawyers visit worthwhile. Check with him what his minimum charge / travel is.

The more value you can add to the logs before they are sold, the better off you are. Selling them in log form may be an option, but you will probably only get 1/2 the sawn value? I understand that coming up with $5,000  on the spot to pay the sawyer is an issue, hence getting it milled in smaller lots, and selling/paying as you go.

You can ask more for dry wood, but then you have to pay the sawyer, and wait 6-12 months before you sell it, or pay more for kiln drying. So that may not be so practical.

Ian

[ben5398]

I just talked to a couple different people, one a sawyer with a stationary mill plus kiln, the other just a buyer.  The buyer said he would like to come out and look at what we have in the week or so. 

The sawyer, seemed high as he was asking .27 to kiln and .50 to saw, and of course I would either have to get it to him 30 miles away or he would get it, process it for 1.40 bf.  He was insistant on kiln since I want to make furniture with some of it, he contradicted what I have read on here/read elsewhere, that even though it is black walnut the sticks will leave a mark all the way through the wood when air dried.  He had no interest in buying the wood, or exchanging for the work.

Think I will call a few more sawyers. 

[4430jd]

The Amish mills in my area are asking $.45 per b/f. I have been milling black walnut, with air drying in a barn for years with good results. In my area it takes 1 year for every 1 in. of lumber thickness.

[ben5398]

Thanks everyone for all the help.  I am going to air dry the lumber, I have read several places it can be done that way, after all kilns have not been around forever, with your last words of encouragement I am confident it will work well.  Since I do not see me using any of the wood for 3 or 4 years minimum I am not worried about the time aspect.

I will wait till later this week and see if the timber buyer wants any of the logs, if so I will use that to help pay the cost of the milling. If not I may see if I can sell any green lumber.  I would guess I have at least one veneer quality as the largest one I have, 20 feet x 28" diameter, straight, no  blemishes as far as I can tell.

Thanks again, Im sure Ill have more questions later.

[WDH]

I have sawn and air dried a whack of black walnut.  I have sold a whack of it, too.  I would never cut it all 2x8x16'.  You are better cutting a variety of thickness.  Cut the very best grade wood in the thicker dimensions like 6/4 or 8/4.  It is easier to cut around defects in 4/4 when making furniture.  I would cut about 2/3rds of the lumber as 4/4 and 1/3rd into the thicker dimensions because woodworkers need a variety of dimensions for things like table legs, table tops, etc. 

The longer the log, the lower the yield due to taper, and long wood is a bear to handle and stack.  I cut all my walnut for furniture at 8 feet 6 inches and 10 feet 6 inches.  Nobody has ever asked me for a walnut board over 10 feet in length. 

Remember that you will need a good bit of space to sticker and air dry thousands of BF of lumber, and you will need a bunch of dry stickers.  I have never had sticker stain problems in walnut, even in the Georgia heat and humidity.  But, you have to have good air flow around the stacks.  Keep the stack width to 5 feet wide or less.  4 feet wide with 4 foot stickers works well.  Down here, walnut will air dry to 12 - 15% in less than 180 days or 6 months.  Air dried walnut retains more of the natural color.  Kiln drying will mute or wash out the natural color variations in the wood, and if the logs are steamed before kiln drying, all the colors sort of even out to a monotone chocolate brown.  Most woodworkers prefer air dried walnut over kiln dried walnut.  You air dry it to 12 - 15%, then bring it inside into a climate controlled space to finish drying down to about 8% before building your project.

[ben5398]

WDH thank you for the details on cutting it up, and drying the material.  I really truly appreciate everything everyone has given me.  I feel a lot more confident on what is happening. 

One last question, I found a site for "prices paid for delivered veneer logs to Inidana Mills" on the Purdue Ext website, Illinois is not that organized as a poster pointed out; so our budget problems mean information like Indiana is non existant.
According to the site the average paid for such lumber was $5.06 bf.  If this is the case should I expect a 50/50 split with the buyer, $2.53 bf for the log?  I believe a good transaction is one where everyone is happy, so I just am looking to make sure it is fair.  This seems like a large profit for a buyer, is 60/40 more common, or is the 5.06 what the buyer should be offering? 

I am aware that I may not have a log worth this,  and as it stated "delivered" veneer logs, I am just using this as as a basis for the discussion.   

[beenthere]

According to the site the average paid for such lumber was $5.06 bf.

Just a minor correction, but you are talking logs, not lumber. ;)
Transportation of logs to IN will not be cheap, and likely won't pay unless several logs. That is where a log buyer (if one exists) will go around and pick up potential veneer logs as cheap as he can get them and deliver them to a mill with hopes that they make the price being paid for veneer logs. All involves some risk.

Here is a link to a site showing resources in IL that may provide some good answers for you, and get you some "on-the-ground" help with your logs.
http://www.centralillinoisforestry.com/index.php/forestry-resources-for-landowners

[ben5398]

Just got a call back from my original sawyer, the price he quoted was .70 not.07 so I missheard him.  He was calling back to say he would be willing to drop his price to .45 and that he may have someone interested in some of the lumber to help offset the cost.  Not sure I will go with him, but just wanted to update to clear up the confusion. 

[WDH]

$.70/BF is well above the average rate for custom sawing.  He may have been trying to take advantage of you. 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

$.70/BF is well above the average rate for custom sawing.  He may have been trying to take advantage of you.

70 cents ?....

[Bogue Chitto]

Welcome Ben.  You are better off if you find another sawyer.  :new_year:

Find another sawyer my friend.  He trying to take advantage.   

[NWP]

You may be able to look at Meister Log and Lumber's website to see if there is a buyer in your area you could call.  Typically they will figure mileage from your location to the mill and subtract the shipping cost from the price paid.  I'm in MO and have sold to Meister.  They are located in WI and I still end up with over $1 per foot after shipping for mostly saw logs, maybe 1 or 2 veneer in the load and they were on the small end.  If I have a short load, my buyer only charges a percentage of the shipping to me.  For example, if I only have half a load he only charges me half the shipping.  He will line up another short load in the area and they will pay the other half of the shipping.  Works out pretty good.

[ben5398]

Thanks all.  Ill update when more info is available.

[Nomad]

Just got a call back from my original sawyer, the price he quoted was .70 not.07 so I missheard him.  He was calling back to say he would be willing to drop his price to .45 and that he may have someone interested in some of the lumber to help offset the cost.  Not sure I will go with him, but just wanted to update to clear up the confusion.

     Imagine that.  Tell him to take a hike.  Better yet, just ignore him.

[Tristen]

Good luck.  There are Sawyers out there willing to trade logs for lumber. Wish I was closer than 2 hours. I would love to have some Walnut !   Keep looking, or you could always haul them 2 hours north. lol 

[Walnut Beast]

I have sawn and air dried a whack of black walnut.  I have sold a whack of it, too.  I would never cut it all 2x8x16'.  You are better cutting a variety of thickness.  Cut the very best grade wood in the thicker dimensions like 6/4 or 8/4.  It is easier to cut around defects in 4/4 when making furniture.  I would cut about 2/3rds of the lumber as 4/4 and 1/3rd into the thicker dimensions because woodworkers need a variety of dimensions for things like table legs, table tops, etc.  

The longer the log, the lower the yield due to taper, and long wood is a bear to handle and stack.  I cut all my walnut for furniture at 8 feet 6 inches and 10 feet 6 inches.  Nobody has ever asked me for a walnut board over 10 feet in length.  

Remember that you will need a good bit of space to sticker and air dry thousands of BF of lumber, and you will need a bunch of dry stickers.  I have never had sticker stain problems in walnut, even in the Georgia heat and humidity.  But, you have to have good air flow around the stacks.  Keep the stack width to 5 feet wide or less.  4 feet wide with 4 foot stickers works well.  Down here, walnut will air dry to 12 - 15% in less than 180 days or 6 months.  Air dried walnut retains more of the natural color.  Kiln drying will mute or wash out the natural color variations in the wood, and if the logs are steamed before kiln drying, all the colors sort of even out to a monotone chocolate brown.  Most woodworkers prefer air dried walnut over kiln dried walnut.  You air dry it to 12 - 15%, then bring it inside into a climate controlled space to finish drying down to about 8% before building your project.

Do you still have wood workers wanting and preferring  air dried walnut over kiln dried walnut 

[WDH]

Actually no.  With the Nyle L53 dehumidification kiln, the loss of natural colors mentioned before does not occur like in a conventional steam kiln.  So, the L53 dries the wood to 8% without color loss and nobody asks me for air dried walnut anymore. 

[YellowHammer]

Me too.  

We get so many people, maybe once a week now, who have been burned by what we call "Craigslist Air Dryers" that they won't even touch air dried anymore.  

[farmfromkansas]

Before I bought a mill, had 2 sawyers saw lumber for me.  Both screwed up the boards.  One left huge slabs and did not cut them, these were from the outside of the logs, best boards in the log.  He set them off in a pile for firewood, instead of putting back on the mill and cutting them.  He also quarter sawed the oak, and what I wanted was flat sawn.  The other guy cut all the boards on his inch scale, instead of 4/4.  Was disgusted trying to use the lumber they sawed.  Decided the only way to get lumber sawn the way I want it is to do it myself, so now I am the proud owner of a MP32.  Have a neighbor who hired a guy who advertises he will come and saw your logs, the guy sawed their lumber with a dull blade and the boards are all wavy.  They brought some of the boards over for me to help them build a table top, and from 8/4 boards to get a flat table top, we had to plane it down to 1 1/4" thick.  Still a nice table top, but not as thick as desired.  These guys all charged full bore.

[Tristen]

COMMUNICATION is a big part of this.  I am very new to all of this, but many hours of reading, (and i stayed at a Holiday inn express last night) will help with the sawyer/log owner relationship.  Both the sawyer and the customer need to communicate very well.   To actually LISTEN to someone is a hard thing to do.   The sawyer wants to get the most "VALUE" out of the log, but the customer may not want that.  All i am trying to say is, There are many examples of the Sawyer screwed it up, and Many examples of it was the customers fault.  

If you don't have the $3000-$4000 to get it all cut up there are other ways.  I have traded lots of things for the service of cutting lumber.  I have traded, lumber for welding service, mechanic services, logs, standing timber, antique gas pumps, tractor attachments.  

It dose not have to be about money.  Just for example the customer in this case gets some very odd cuts of walnut, he wants a bed, chest, table, dresser, etc, and he wants to be able to say the lumber came from his OWN land, "My great grandfather planted those trees and they are now my bedroom suite"  That is a very important thing and something you can not place a monetary value on.   Just to continue the example; the sawyer leaves with no money in his pocket however he gets a large share of the walnut logs, the sawyer can then saw them for "value" any way he wants.  Win/Win.  

Good luck ! 

[sumpnz]

Looks like someone resurrected a 7 year old thread .

I'm curious if the OP is still around what the final resolution was, and if he has since made furniture with any of the lumber.

[Tristen]

WOW that was me !  My mistake,     Jan 20 the 2013.      I guess i need to read past the January 20th part !    lol  sorry  

[moodnacreek]

The only thing that sounds right here is the time of the year, this is the best time to fall and saw lumber.  Are there any left standing?  With an excavator you could dig the stumps with the tree standing and carefully saw off the stumps as low as possible with no damage to the highly valuable butt logs. Only an expert hardwood logger can cut the trees down properly.  I hope you didn't crack any or do any pull out.

[RussMaGuss]

Actually no.  With the Nyle L53 dehumidification kiln, the loss of natural colors mentioned before does not occur like in a conventional steam kiln.  So, the L53 dries the wood to 8% without color loss and nobody asks me for air dried walnut anymore.

As someone who just got their l53 up and running and has a batch of walnut going in next, this is great news