Chainsaw chain grinder help

[slice107]

Hello, I have bought an efco fl136 from a friend. We also had a cheap Oregon clone and it had enough slop in the head pin that I thought that was my cause for the chains not cutting. i mostly use semi chisel chain. the last time i used the grinder i followed Oregon's settings in the 420-110 manual. 35-55-10 worked good cut like a new chain. today when i tried to do the same the shape of the cutter is different enough that I know it wont cut well. (i can hand file great so i do know what I'm looking at . ) The only thing i have changed is dressing the wheel. I'm having a heck of a time getting it shaped like the little plastic card shows it should be. but can that really change the shape of the tooth that much? I mean its not off allot but its not perfect. 

Also another problem I'm finding is its hard to only grind a little off the tooth. I end up grinding a fair bit and my chains seem to be disappearing much faster then when I hand file. 

And last of all, I hear about needing to make sure both left and right teeth are same length. Mine are close about 0.005 difference according to my dial calipers. Whats this all about and could it have anything to do with me getting funny looking teeth all the time?

[RetiredTech]

  I don't use that sharpener but I would think the grind wheel would need to be round on the edge just like the files you use. Without a picture of the funny looking teeth we can only guess. There should be an adjustment on the chain advance/lock to set how much gets ground off. If all teeth are the same length and you set it to just touch the tooth it should lightly grind each tooth. If some teeth are longer they will get ground more. There is also an adjustment for how deep it cuts and the angle. Look at a new chain and try to keep the same  depth, shape and angle.
 I generally only use a chain grinder when my hand filing produces a crooked cut that I can't fix by hand. The grinder is going to remove more material than a light filing. I prefer not to use the grinder If I don't have to. By the time I drag out the grinder and remove the chain from the saw I could have flied the chain and gone back to work. Things that will likely require the grinder to fix are metal or rock strikes. I've never been able to file my way out of those. Hope I touched on something that might help.
  Lastly, I'd try to go online and download a manual for that sharpener if you don't have one.

[slice107]

I'll try to figure out how to add pictures. also i know about the different adjustments. It just seems weird to me how the other day they came out great and now today they are coming out odd...

Also yes ill have a look and see if i can find a manual for this grinder. i feel the same about hand filing as that's all ive done all my life till now. I don't need a grinder. i just got it for a good price and heard that this one is one of the better ones made. I usaily sharpen quickly when I get fuel/oil. Only takes a second and its a good break from chainsawing never really seen the advantage of having to remove a chain and sharpen it to just put it back on the saw. 

[rusticretreater]

Its like having a lot of bandsaw blades. If you have a bunch of chains, you just swap them out while out logging and then sharpen them up at the shop.  Its a real time saver in the field if you use long bars on your saws. 

I usually have three chains with me and will only field sharpen each one of them once before a swap out.

As for getting the teeth and the rakers the same on both sides, its needed to keep the forces balanced so the saw cuts straight kerfs.  If you don't, the saw cuts crooked no matter how much force you use to try and make it cut straight.

[barbender]

 I have a hunch that the majority of people using a grinder, are grinding too hard and trying to take too much off at once. That's been my experience with chains others have done, anyhow. I'm not saying that's the case here. 

 Are you sure you have the right wheel thickness for the chain pitch you are running?

[rusticretreater]

I set mine up by using an angle gauge to confirm the setting shown on the angle dial. This is quite important to stay true to the factory specs and optimum cutting angles.  I measure the accuracy of all my miter gauges, sawmill rulers, etc.  I find they are all pretty much off unless they cost $200 or more.  My chain sharpener is off by 1 degree at 25, nearly 2 at the 35 degree setting.

Then I adjust it to barely touch the surface, push it down to the gullet and then gently push it to the side(freeplay) as I raise it, grinding the surface and making a sharper edged hook on the tooth.

Examine the tooth where there is a 90 degree bend.  Usually this corner is not ground fully if your angle is off. The corner is the transition from the tooth biting to the gullet slicing and needs to be sharp too. Keep going until all surfaces show clean bright metal.

[slice107]

I'll mess with it today and try to get a video and some pictures. Would running different types of chain also change things? I have some stihl rm. Some oregon dpx. Some oregon exl. Some husky xcut. I know semi vs full chisel will change but will different brands of chain need different angles as well?

I could be grinding to much each time. i only turn the forward/back tooth adjustment maybe 1/8 of a turn.

I also had another look at some different oregon manuals and for dpx some say 35-55-10. Some say 30-55-10. Its kinda confusing. also I cant find a manual for this efco fl136. I keep getting manuals for the efco 136 chainsaw coming up instead lol.

[mike dee]

Do you have one of these diamond grinding wheel dressers?


https://www.princessauto.com/en/diamond-grinding-wheel-dresser/product/PA0009027830

[slice107]

I do have one of those ones. I also have the small rock type one that came with the grinder and also a big rock type one from norton. I was looking at buying the little guide/jig thingy from tecomec. it clamps into the vise and gives right profile. I don't think my profile is correct. i dont know how picky it is but when i use the gauge thingy i do get light from behind.

[barbender]

 I think Stihl chain uses a 0° top plate angle. I sharpen mostly harvester chainsn off the top of my head the settings are 30°-60°-10°. I tend to use that for my regular saw chains as well (all Oregon). Any chain should cut at least decent with those settings. 

 If you really try to hog a lot off, it actually rolls a burr on top of the tooth that will be as dull as if you hit rocks. 

 I can't stress a light grind enough. It should be light enough, that you almost need two times around IMO. 

 The stone shape determines the shape of your gullet. If it is really out of whack I guess it could influence the hook angle. I eyeballed mine with the little gauge that came with the sharpener, and it was fine. 

 Another thing that makes me suspect that a vast majority of operators of both saw chain and band sharpeners using vitrified wheels are grinding way too hard, is people always complain that the stones wear too quickly and don't maintain their shape. I haven't had that issue on either type of sharpener. I've read guys say that the stone won't hold its shape long enough to make it around one chain. I'd sharpened 25-30 harvester chains and thought it was probably time to reshape the stone. It hadn't changed🤷 Same on my band saw grinder, I think if you have  a consistent, light grind the stone wears in the same shape that you are sharpening. 

[slice107]

I just went out and ground 1 tooth. 30-55-10. Stihl rm chain.  Here is video.

This one came out better then they were yesterday... Not sure why it's changing soo much for me...

Here is picture of the wheel profile.

[barbender]

Although you are doing a great job kissing the tooth, you are taking too big of a bite imo. When you have it backed off enough where you feel like you're not doing anything, that's just about right.

[slice107]

Interesting. I'll give that a go. I'll go sharpen up that chain and if anything goes fishy I'll be back.

i usaily set the the tooth so it just touches the wheel with the grinder off and advance the tooth about 1/8 of a turn on the knob. I'll try just setting it so it just touches the tooth on the next chain.

thankyou for the help.

[beenthere]

I usually set the the tooth so it just touches the wheel with the grinder off and advance the tooth about 1/8 of a turn on the knob

Try that without advancing any turn of the knob, and see if it goes around the chain matching the other teeth. Then if so, advance only 1/16 of a turn to monitor the results.

1/8 turn seems too much, and looks to be taking more tooth than it should if "kissing" is the intent. What I saw in the video was an aggressive bite, more like "hogging". 

[slice107]

So here is another chain. I don't know brand. It has a 50a stamped on the drive link. There is no gullet. This is what I was getting for tooth shape and it doesn't look like a good profile from my experience. It's the same settings as before. 30-55-10. I'm using a 3/16 wheel. And it is 3/8 chain. 

[rusticretreater]

It appears that the Tecomec FL 136 and Efco FL 136 are the same product.  Here is the manual link for the 
Tecomec.

https://www.manualslib.com/products/Tecomec-Fl-136-8747120.html

Looking at your last picture, the chain has been cut too deep and at the wrong angle.  In between the tooth and raker is two peaks.  The left peak should be the base of the gullet.  All of the gullet metal has been ground away.

[slice107]

Thankyou for finding the manual. 

So your saying i need to not cut as deep with the grinder wheel?

[slice107]

Here is another tooth with the wheel not set so deep.

[rusticretreater]

Compare that with a new chain and see the difference.

[slice107]

Don't have any new semi chisel handy. but i know when i hand file and even when i did grind good chain. this last pic needs more hook/gullet. I just don't know why that stihl came out fine and now this one doesn't. The only thing that changed is the chain.
The grinder is still at the same settings.

The tecomec manual says i should be doing this 50a chain with at 30-60-0. I'm still set at 30-55-10. ill give those numbers a try i guess and see if its any better? it also says the stihl rm shouldnt have the 10* angle but mine looks good how its set?

[slice107]

Another tooth same 50a chain. It looks to have a small gullet now. It looks better maybe? This is at 30-60-0.

[barbender]

 You have zero hook in your side plate, which is a problem.

  When you adjust for the 10° top plate angle, you have to switch it from side to side. There should be a 10°-0°-10° marking on your vise. If it's not making sense I would just set and leave it at zero, and get your chains cutting correctly before you try dialing the top plate angle in.

 I'd use a 60° cutting angle, too. I know you said yours is 55° but it looks really flat.

[barbender]

Looking at your side plates, I'd almost bet money that is from grinding with the 10° setting for the other side.

[slice107]

Looking at your side plates, I'd almost bet money that is from grinding with the 10° setting for the other side.

I show in the video a couple posts back how I have the angles set. The last picture is set at 30-60-0 as the tecomec manual states for this chain. 

I will admit that I have ground a few teeth with the 10* on the wrong side. Doh...

[slice107]

You have zero hook in your side plate, which is a problem.

  When you adjust for the 10° top plate angle, you have to switch it from side to side. There should be a 10°-0°-10° marking on your vise. If it's not making sense I would just set and leave it at zero, and get your chains cutting correctly before you try dialing the top plate angle in.

 I'd use a 60° cutting angle, too. I know you said yours is 55° but it looks really flat.

I know I have 0 hook. And I don't understand what angles I need to change to get the hook. And wouldn't 55* give me more hook then a 60* would? I know with a hand file it's just filing deeper into the tooth to get that hook. With hand file I have a problem with too much hook. Lol.

[beenthere]

My take on the gullet shown in the pic is it is not deep enough. The tooth height gets shorter as it decreases in length after sharpening. The depth should also get deeper after sharpening so the tooth height stays nearly the same above the strap. As short as that tooth is, your depth should be close to the strap. My take on this.

Modified your pic with my thought.


What happened to the raker? Looks to be filed off.

[slice107]

If I set the wheel that low it will grind into the tie strap real bad. I don't mind if it does a little. When I hand file I use a smaller file once I get back that far on the tooth. 

Did you see the last pic I posted? It's not as good quality but the tooth seems to have a little hook to it. 

The rakers? What's wrong with it? I set all my rakers with a progressive gauge. Eather husky or West coast saws. So they always end up with the angle to them. When I set them with the grinder I do the same. I file one with the gauge and set the grinder to that tooth.

[beenthere]

Show a pic of the other side and how far you are from the strap, please.

[beenthere]

Pic of my hand-filed Stihl tooth

[slice107]

Pic of my hand-filed Stihl tooth

Ain't nothing wrong with that. Mine don't quite look the same but I can see that one will cut well.

[slice107]

Show a pic of the other side and how far you are from the strap, please.

Here are both sides of the last tooth I ground.

[beenthere]

Not trying to be difficult, but a close up look of your tooth-grind doesn't show, to me,  a good cutting edge.





My hand filed tooth. Has sharp cutting edges. May be questionable at the point. But has a ways to go to get into the strap.

[slice107]

It's all good. I been messing around with the chainsaw sharpening group on facebook and all they say is change your angles till you get what you are looking for. Or there is no working corner. I'm just like "it's semi chisel that's why it looks different then full." 

Let me run back out and get a picture of it better. Il even give it a nice cleaning so the edge and tooth can all be seen more clearly.

[slice107]

Gosh I'm getting old. I can feel roughness in the chrome on that tooth with my finger but I can't see with my eyes. 

Anyways here are some more pictures. But that edge I can take it back or do whatever I need. I'm more interested in that gullet and how to get the grinder in there?

Maybe I should use a 1/8 wheel when the chain gets that worn? Maybe using a 30-55-0 instead of 30-60-0?

[khntr85]

You can get a great chain with a grinder have a stihl USG and a Oregon 520...I like the can wheels, and yes you just want to bump a chain...I still hand file but can absolutely get a killer chain with the grinder too, it's takes some practice to get a good chain...

[khntr85]

Also get a new chain and like up the wheel with the new cutter best you can.....don't get fixated on numbers the factory numbers are good guides but you can do whatever angles you want....i have tried all kinds of crazy angles and can make a good cutting and durable chain for hardwoods as that's all I cut...

[slice107]

I think allot of my problems are coming from i have so many different types of chain here. Eather that or my wheel profile isn't perfect. the more i read the less problems people seem to have once they go to cbn wheels.

Ill keep playing around with it but i think i need to start a log book as to wich angles for each chain i have lol.

[trapper]

CBN wheel helped me

[hedgerow]

CBN wheel helped me

I switch to these years ago on my grinders and should have done it sooner. No issues with them. I never hand file. I take several saws and chains to the cutting party. I just change out a chain when needed. I always carry compressed air in the saw trailer to blow saws off before refueling and changing a chain out. 

[slice107]

Does quality matter? I seen some on Amazon for $140 cad. Brand is UF-Sharp. Can I use the 3/16 on .325 chain? If not guess if have to buy both. All mg own chain is 3/8 expect the pole saw and the 028. But id like to sharpen other people's chain once I have this figured out. 

[ladylake]

 I use a 1/8 cbn wheel on all  of my chains , works great.  Steve

[barbender]

 If you go to a CBN wheel and it solves your problems, it confirms to me that you are grinding too hard. My vitrified stone did just as well as the CBN I replaced it with. Honestly I was expecting more of a difference. That's how little I am taking off at a time.

[slice107]

If you go to a CBN wheel and it solves your problems, it confirms to me that you are grinding too hard. My vitrified stone did just as well as the CBN I replaced it with. Honestly I was expecting more of a difference. That's how little I am taking off at a time.

I feel like my big problem is the wheel profile. Imo it's good where it's at right now but also I feel it's not perfect enough. It just doesn't fill the gauge all the way. To get it to fill the gauge all the way seems close to impossible with my skill. If I gotta fight with it that much each time I dress the wheel i will use this grinder as a boat ancher. I don't clean my chains. I ain't going to start. I don't have the space or time for that. And I do notice how much more the wheel burns the tooth with it starts to get black.

 I do get that it will burn if I take tk big of cut. I do think that may be part of my problem but ultimately a bigger cut won't change my tooth shape. And tbh that's my main problem. I know I could just learn to use the pink wheel and not take as big bite and I could learn to shape the wheel perfectly, but tbh. I'd rather take that time learning that stuff and put it towards learning square filing. 

I think I'll buy a cbn wheel and give it a try. I'll also work on not taking such a big cut in the mean time. And I'll also play with mh angles some more. I printed off a chart and I'll follow it and I'll start righting down what works for my chains. 

Thanks everyone for helping out and helping me figure out what's going on, and thanks for the info about to big of cut.

[beenthere]

But id like to sharpen other people's chain once I have this figured out. [/font][/size][/color]

Will be good to do that figuring on your own chains, and I wish you well doing that. Then you also can enjoy a well-sharpened chain.

I paid for a chain sharpening one time that was not good. He'll never get another chance to do it again for me, even tho his previous times were reasonable. 

[slice107]

But id like to sharpen other people's chain once I have this figured out. [/font][/size][/color]

Will be good to do that figuring on your own chains, and I wish you well doing that. Then you also can enjoy a well-sharpened chain.

I paid for a chain sharpening one time that was not good. He'll never get another chance to do it again for me, even tho his previous times were reasonable. 

Ya no one here can sharpen a chain. I've tried a few people and sometimes it's even worse than when I brought it to them. I always have wood here to cut so if people bring me there saw I usually do a test cut to make sure it cuts well. I often wish that we could have chainsaw races at the fall fair but tbh I doubt I've ever enter but it would be cool to see what some of the loggers saws cut like. No one j have talked to in my area even knows about 8 or 9 pin drive sprocket. I run a 8 on my 500i pretty much all the time. Keeps the cut speed up. Not too often I come across stuff bigger then 20 inch. It's fun running square ground when it's sharpened good and your blowing chips out 10 feet behind you lol. Heck. I can't even talk like this with saw dealers around here. They don't even know semi vs full chisel chain... I've tried a few dealers and they are all the same. Finally got tired and get my stuff shipped from walkers saw shop out of bc. 

Sorry I'm in a ranting mood tonight. Bt yes I do plan to learn this grinder before sharpening other people's chain on it.. there really isn't money in sharpening chain and I really only do it for people just to help them out. 

[barbender]

 Slice, my comments about the CBN wheels weren't addressed to you specifically. Just in general, I hear a lot of people complain that chains done on a grinder don't cut good, or the wheels don't last, etc. That hasn't been my experience- my chains done on my grinder cut great, whether they were done with the pink wheel or the cbn one. And my chains cut just as well as my hand filed ones. I've never used square ground, but I can file a chain as well as anyone as I've come across in my area.  

 Add that to the fact that chains that I've seen that other people used a grinder on were not done well at all. Teeth burned, a bur rolled over that made the tooth completely blunt, all this leads me to the conclusion most aren't using the machine correctly.
 

[slice107]

Slice, my comments about the CBN wheels weren't addressed to you specifically. Just in general, I hear a lot of people complain that chains done on a grinder don't cut good, or the wheels don't last, etc. That hasn't been my experience- my chains done on my grinder cut great, whether they were done with the pink wheel or the cbn one. And my chains cut just as well as my hand filed ones. I've never used square ground, but I can file a chain as well as anyone as I've come across in my area. 

 Add that to the fact that chains that I've seen that other people used a grinder on were not done well at all. Teeth burned, a bur rolled over that made the tooth completely blunt, all this leads me to the conclusion most aren't using the machine correctly.
 

I understand. I always used to think with a grinder you just set your angles and go to town. That is it but it's just as much skill as hand filing imo. Maybe even more. I think allot of people think that. 

[ladylake]

 I did'nt have any problem with a stone except for having to dress it once in a while.  I've had a CBN for about 5 years and haven't  had to do anything to it yet.  Steve

[YellowHammer]

I've been following this, these guys are right on, and I borrowed and added to Beethere's pic because for one reason or another, you are not getting the tooth hook to climb the backside of the wheel as he is showing with the little red triangle.  That part of the tooth is missing, for whatever reason.  It should look like this and you can see that that dressing has very little to do with the climb as long as it the wheel has a generic stubby oval, the shorter the better, you can almost put a flat grind on the wheel and then touch the corners just a tad.

So there are ways for you to "clip the tip," such as the tooth is pushing (moving) when grinding, or the wheel is too thick or you are grinding from the wrong side of the edge of the wheel, or your angle is off or....

Put a new chain on there, turn the grinder off, set your wheel to sit into and be fully engulfed by the hook. The entire top, straight edge of the cutting edge of the chain should finish and physically contact the flat, back side of the cutting wheel.  That's important. 

Anyways, I have not used your sharpener, but on my USG Stihl, there are three adjustments to match the Stihl chains precisely.  I made this video to show how I do it.  At 3:46 you can clearly see the tooth hook climbing up the back edge of the wheel like in the modified picture. 

https://youtu.be/08_n3J8FfYE

[slice107]

Whenever I have had the flat side of the wheel grind the cutting edge of the tooth I never found the chain to cut. That is also how people here grind chains. It's sharp to feel but it won't pull any wood. I dong know the reason? In mg mind it works like square ground but in practice for me the chain won't cut soft butter. 

I've read other places that the aris?? (The corner of the wheel) Should just touch the top plate edge. Similar to a round file. In mg mind to that thinking the wheel profile is very critical. I have done 2 chains that cut good with the grinder and that's how they both were set up. But I'm having a hard time replicating it even with the same settings on the grinder. 

I'll watch the video once I get some coffee. Thanks for linking it. Maybe something will click on my brain. 

[hedgerow]

I did'nt have any problem with a stone except for having to dress it once in a while.  I've had a CBN for about 5 years and haven't  had to do anything to it yet.  Steve

I have two old foley 308 grinders. I never look at or set it to the angles on the marking on the grinder. I have one set for raker's and the other one set to do the angles. I just mount a new chain on the grinder and set the grinder up that way. I still think you will like the CBN wheels better. I do take my chains outside and blow off with compressed air. Normally I don't wash them but I have some in the past. 

[YellowHammer]

No, that's not what I'm saying.  Never sharpen the chain with the side of the wheel, it's not designed for side loads and may blow apart and hurt you.  What I'm saying is that at the end of the plunge cycle, the hook of the tooth should be exactly aligned with the side of the cutting wheel or even the profile of the grind, if you go to the trouble to do it.

You are coming in at a slant angle?

You are missing the entire red triangle of the hook of the tooth that is being shown in the picture, and that is the part that does the cutting in the log and also should climb and be aligned with the side of the wheel of sharpener if done correctly.  If your wheel looks like the white lines in the picture, which represents the profile of the wheel, and plunges in the same angle of the picture, then you will still have the little red triangle of tooth, which is the cutting edge.  You are somehow grinding off the entire top cutting edge of the tooth. 

[barbender]

That set up won't work, and is probably your problem IMO. The angle of your grinder us what will determine the hook angle. The fact you are trying to create the hook with the radius is why your teeth look vertical. At this point I'd forget whatever assumptions or how you've seen other machines set up, because it isn't working for you. Shape your stone to match the template. Set the grinder for the specified angles for your chain. Set the grinding depth so the wheel just barely contacts the tie strap. Take very light passes. Now go enjoy your nice, properly sharpened chain😁

[barbender]

Any part of that radius that shapes the hook, is going to make it shallower than what the angle is set on the machine. If you're set at 55°, it's probably 10° doing it with the radius.

[slice107]

Just sharpened a few chains. I took my top plate angle back to about 25 and I'm getting more hook now. I don't know how or why that changes anything but I'm getting that nice little round hook like I get when I hand file.

I get what everyone is saying with that picture or at least I think I do. And for me in mg wood and with my saw that profile in the tooth doesn't cut and pull. I know cause I have tried it. But for now setting the top angle at 25 is getting me results I can live with. I haven't tried to cut with it but j can tell just looking at it it's more like my hand file and that's what works for me. 

I'm going to order a cbn wheel for it though. I just have to do some more research on that.

[JD Guy]

Could it be that the grinder head is not set up initially with it centered over the center of the vice as in the instructions? That could cause the wheel to not be grinding the gullet? Just throwing it out FWIW 

[slice107]

Could it be that the grinder head is not set up initially with it centered over the center of the vice as in the instructions? That could cause the wheel to not be grinding the gullet? Just throwing it out FWIW

I'm having trouble now with the teeth coming out different lengths. And I believe that's because of what you say. Although my grinder only has small adjustment in the video for that and I messed with it and couldn't figure it out. I just back the tooth up a bit and measure it to get both sides the same. With a cbn wheel that problem also becomes not a problem. I gotta finish a few more chains today and il do a post here on what I'm finding is working for me with pictures of the chain and my angle settings.

[slice107]

Here are some chains I have worked on the last 2 days. Top to bottom. I'm getting a bit more curve in the gullet similar tk when I hand file and I feel these are closer to what I'm looking for. I haven't tried them yet but I hope to the next nice day we get.

1 Oregon exl. I had the settings at 25-55-10
2 Oregon dpx 30-55-10
3 Stihl rm 25-55-10
4 Stihl rm 25-55-10. This one I couldn't get the nice round gullet I'm looking for so j tried a 1/8 wheel and for some reason I'm getting a round gullet. It's not a deep gullet so it might plug with chips fast but I'll try it and see.

My finding is that how I grind, the wheel profile does matter. Also to get the nice round gullet I'm looking for you gotta really play with the angles. They all change the gullet a little. At least on my grinder they do. I do feel that these chains will all cut okay at the least. 

If anyone reads this jn the future with grinder problems all I can suggest is that don't grind to much at once like people say here and also you really just gotta play with your grinder settings til you get a tooth that you like. Ony grinder if I want a deeper gullet I might have to change 3-4 settings to get that. I know from hand filing that for me the top plate angle isn't a huge concern if it's not 30* or whatever. It can be a fair bit out and still cut great.

I did also order a cbn wheel today. It should be here in a couple weeks. I think that will fix the new problems that have come up for me with different tooth length and also help to get a more round gullet.

[doc henderson]

the first one may cut, then it looks like the progression will end up not pulling into the wood.  I use +-30^o/30^o/+-15 front to back for each side.

[doc henderson]

My dealer does all chain at the 30/30/15

[doc henderson]

[ladylake]

 Grinding is easy, get the wheel low enough so you have some hook on the side plate, make sure the rakers aren't too high. It will cut good.  Steve

[slice107]

For me hand filing is easy. 

[slice107]

the first one may cut, then it looks like the progression will end up not pulling into the wood.  I use +-30^o/30^o/+-15 front to back for each side.

Those angles dont make sense to me but I'm not using a Stihl usg. 

I'm sure that those top 3 chains will cut at least decent. The last bottom one I'm not sure about but ill find out. 

Something j always forget is that with semi chisel chain you don't have that sharp corner and you don't really get that hook looking thing the same as with full chisel chain. 

[beenthere]

For me hand filing is easy.

Then you must know what the tooth should look like, I am assuming. 

Good luck figuring out how to get the machine to do that for you. 

[slice107]

For me hand filing is easy.

Then you must know what the tooth should look like, I am assuming. 

Good luck figuring out how to get the machine to do that for you. 

Yea I know what I wanted it to look like but was having a hard time getting it to look like that. I was looking for help to find out what settings I need to change but I think I got it now. Everyone gave good tips though about grinding too much at once. 

[Old Greenhorn]

You know this conversation was focused on the issues of grinding but is now including some hand filing and comparisons. It may be a small point for some, but I think it should be mention. To Whit: Each chain manufacturer forms their teeth shapes with a specific sharpening profile in mind. If you look on the box, it should include the proper angles that chain is made for. Changing this changes the efficiency of the cut. SO I assume the angles you listed earlier are the ones the MFG recommends? If not, what is the makers recommendations for the sharpening angles? That's where you have to start. If these chains are different, you are chasing a ghost. If I misunderstood what you wrote, nevermind.  Of course you can change those angles, but know that you are now free lancing and YMMV. I used to take my Oregon LPX chain, which are made as round full chisel, and re-file it as a square chisel and it worked great. But now I am exclusively using X-cut chains and notably, they take a '0°' angle on the file drop angle. Reading the box is important, tooth forms are important. Best of luck.

[slice107]

You know this conversation was focused on the issues of grinding but is now including some hand filing and comparisons. It may be a small point for some, but I think it should be mention. To Whit: Each chain manufacturer forms their teeth shapes with a specific sharpening profile in mind. If you look on the box, it should include the proper angles that chain is made for. Changing this changes the efficiency of the cut. SO I assume the angles you listed earlier are the ones the MFG recommends? If not, what is the makers recommendations for the sharpening angles? That's where you have to start. If these chains are different, you are chasing a ghost. If I misunderstood what you wrote, nevermind.  Of course you can change those angles, but know that you are now free lancing and YMMV. I used to take my Oregon LPX chain, which are made as round full chisel, and re-file it as a square chisel and it worked great. But now I am exclusively using X-cut chains and notably, they take a '0°' angle on the file drop angle. Reading the box is important, tooth forms are important. Best of luck.

the boxs that i have here only show file angles and have no mention about grinder angles. i dont have any papaers in my boxs and i have been trying to go by what the grinder manuals list for chains. even that is a crap shoot since oregon has atleast 2 grinder setups for oregon dpx chain. when i follow these angles its a mixed bag as to my results and it seems to change when i dress my wheel. hence me ordering a cbn. im just posting what seems to have worked for me personely eventhough i have yet to try the chain im confedent that they will cut. 

i for one am not a huge fan of how a stock chain comes from the box. for dropping trees its not too bad but i mostly cut firewood logs and i find that a stock chain doesnt pull as much as i like it to. i prefer to have a little bit more self feed then any chain that i have ever used new. the oregon cl (square ground chain) i bought had the rakers set to high. acording to the progressive gauges i use. but all the others i clean out the gullet and they cut fine.

[khntr85]

I know some times people don't like to stray from the numbers, but if you put a brand new chain on a grinder you won't get the same profile of cutter if you follow the "recommendations"....yes the chain will cut fine with the numbers stihl and Oregon grinders give you, but you can get an even better cutting chain with a little experimenting....

  For instance o cut hard woods, I can make a really aggressive chain, as long as the rakers aren't to low it cuts great....just don't be scared to play with diffrent angles you can and will get a badass self feeding chain!!

[barbender]

Yeah but if your chain isn't cutting very good in the first place like the OP's, I'd start with those suggested numbers and get it cutting right before I started experimenting.

[doc henderson]

Oregon Sharpener Settings for Stihl Chain (forestryforum.com)

[doc henderson]

this thread explains my settings, I do not understand yours either.     good luck.

[slice107]

Oregon Sharpener Settings for Stihl Chain (forestryforum.com)

thanks for sending this ill give it a read over. not sure i came across that thread in my search.

[slice107]

Yeah but if your chain isn't cutting very good in the first place like the OP's, I'd start with those suggested numbers and get it cutting right before I started experimenting.

mines not cutting good with the numbers in the chart from oregon. or tecomec. i just tried out a few chains i did and they all cut decent. they arnt as good as my hand file chains but they do cut. 

[slice107]

I know some times people don't like to stray from the numbers, but if you put a brand new chain on a grinder you won't get the same profile of cutter if you follow the "recommendations"....yes the chain will cut fine with the numbers stihl and Oregon grinders give you, but you can get an even better cutting chain with a little experimenting....

  For instance o cut hard woods, I can make a really aggressive chain, as long as the rakers aren't to low it cuts great....just don't be scared to play with diffrent angles you can and will get a badass self feeding chain!!

im learning this lol. just gota take some crap chain and work with it and learn how differnt setting change the tooth shape. then hope you can use the oregon or whoevers numbers to get you in the ball park and then play with it till it cuts like you want. i really thought a grinder was a set it and forget it kinda thing but im learning. 

[doc henderson]

mine stays the same for all chain, but the grinding wheel thickness changes.  the above for most all other than ripping chain.  I hope this helps.  I once got aggressive on the rakers, and it cut fast, but a little too aggressive.  I bet the number listed will be somewhat of a sweet spot.  if you find something better far from there, you should get a job with a major manufacturer, as they have prob. tried it all.

[slice107]

mine stays the same for all chain, but the grinding wheel thickness changes.  the above for most all other than ripping chain.  I hope this helps.  I once got aggressive on the rakers, and it cut fast, but a little too aggressive.  I bet the number listed will be somewhat of a sweet spot.  if you find something better far from there, you should get a job with a major manufacturer, as they have prob. tried it all.

Yea I don't mess with raker height. I set it with my progressive gauge and roll with it. If I go lower it gets to chattery and more it doesn't cut. My rakers are at a sweet spot. But I don't know if that will change with the grinder since all teeth are set same it might get rid of some chatter. I find it interesting that you can leave your settings alone and still have good cutting chains from type to type. 

I was talking to my GF about this. She says I'm too picky. But my back gets to sore running dull saws lol. I understand everyone's wood is different. And there saws are different and everyone likes a different chain.

[doc henderson]

I hope you can see what I meant by the settings.  An old Amish guy named Mel that owned the Stihl dealership taught me this.  that is how they sharpened all chains professionally.  and to just bump the chain a few times with the grinder rather than grind it blue.  i rarely mess with rakers and in this one instance, a little did not seem like much.  It was uncomfortably aggressive.  they usually wear enough to keep them close to what you need.  the Stihl tooth has a mild slope as it wears back.

[khntr85]

mine stays the same for all chain, but the grinding wheel thickness changes.  the above for most all other than ripping chain.  I hope this helps.  I once got aggressive on the rakers, and it cut fast, but a little too aggressive.  I bet the number listed will be somewhat of a sweet spot.  if you find something better far from there, you should get a job with a major manufacturer, as they have prob. tried it all.

Have they tried them all, or do they just play it safe so the average joe can get a decent cutting chain???

  We have to remember most people don't put in near the effort or thought about chains as we do....i used to sharpen the "publics" chains, talk about unbelievable it's no wonder I used to get burnt up saws I rebuilt and sold lol....

  Yes the angles the give are ok, but multiple things come into play as you know...how the wheel is profiled, how shallow/deep you grind, etc...

 You will get good chains but it just takes some getting used to OP...

 Oh and I have a stihl usg and Oregon 520 side by side...if you only have one brand, don't even try to understand the others numbers the 2-grinders are set up ass bakerds lol..

[slice107]

thanks. the last chain i did i set head to 50 and its way to agressive. i also used an oregon brand wheel. its a tad bigger then the tecomec brand i was using before. still waiting on the cbn to show up.

all those chains that i thought would cut from a few posts back do cut but none of them cut great like i figured. once the cbn wheel comes ill do more playing around.

[Keepfixin]

So I've found that 25°- 50°- 0° is working pretty good at the moment with green frozen and hard dry wood here in Alaska. But I'm still experimenting with different combinations. Right now I have shaped an Oregon 1/4" raker wheel for my Tecomec and its the best wheel yet. I dress it every 4-5 chains instead of 1-2 times a chain because the oil on the chain clogs the wheel. My grinder is outside so a cold oil residue really doesn't agree with the wheel! I also bring the wheel radius to the tooth side profile shape for a chisel look.

[Keepfixin]

Hopefully a picture will come through.

[maple flats]

I'm not familiar with your grinder, I only have experience with a Maxx grinder. My only comment it that you are grinding far too much off. I set mine so it barely touches the tooth, and I make 1 medium speed stroke down and back up, then move on the the next tooth. Every tooth should be the same, don't adjust from tooth to tooth. If you follow that method, your second sharpening will be faster and every one after.
The first video you showed you were grinding way way too much, and taking too long to do it, that will ruin the temper of the tooth, it generates heat and heat ruins the chain. 
Have your settings, for angle, depth of cut, and length of the tooth set so your shortest tooth gets barely kissed with the wheel, then do every tooth with no changes. Never do like your first video, just one smooth stroke down and up, the speed of the wheel should barely slow down, never so you feel the need to let up on the grind to let the wheel get back up to speed. That practice is what heats the edge up .

[Ben Cut-wright]

My only comment it that you are grinding far too much off. I set mine so it barely touches the tooth, and I make 1 medium speed stroke down and back up, then move on the the next tooth. Every tooth should be the same, don't adjust from tooth to tooth. If you follow that method, your second sharpening will be faster and every one after.
The first video you showed you were grinding way way too much, and taking too long to do it, that will ruin the temper of the tooth, it generates heat and heat ruins the chain.
Have your settings, for angle, depth of cut, and length of the tooth set so your shortest tooth gets barely kissed with the wheel, then do every tooth with no changes. Never do like your first video, just one smooth stroke down and up, the speed of the wheel should barely slow down, never so you feel the need to let up on the grind to let the wheel get back up to speed. That practice is what heats the edge up .

Good explanation.  I'd like to make a couple points to explain how I use the grinder to sharpen.

The rate the grinder is moved into and out of the tooth is critical as well as the amount of grind.  Chainsaw grinders would be better thought of as powered whetstones. Don't hog the grind. Machine shop work has taught me that "spark-out" is the only way to ensure all cutters are sharpened equally and achieve better surface. 

Setting for the "Shortest tooth first" will demand partial grinding of the longer teeth if done at the first pass.  This can be done by repeated trips around the chain and multiple dips of the stone.  My preferred method is to mark the shortest tooth, begin grinding the longer cutters, sharpening is complete after the shortest tooth is sharpened.  In other words, grinding the entire profile on as many cutters as possible every pass.  Adjust only the cutter stop after each pass until the shortest tooth sparks-out and the chain is done.