iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Milling for beginners

Started by rasawing, April 26, 2021, 03:39:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rasawing

I am somebody that owns some land and occasionally I get a surplus of wood (beyond what I need for firewood). I've thought about milling it and selling it.....but I haven't done that before. So a few questions here:

1. Who would I sell the milled boards to? Wholesaler? Lumber yard?

2. What kind of prices should I expect? I know this depends very much on species of wood, how it graded out, and so on......but perhaps giving it in % of what is seen in the store is the best approach. (To simplify things.) I also realize that timber costs right now are pretty unusual.

3. Would any board I bring to the yard still need to be planed (i.e. through a planer mill)? How much does that affect cost? I've never quite understood the "planing" situation.

Sorry if these questions are too general.....or have been answered before here.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: By the way, my day job is a structural engineer. So I do know something about graded lumber....I just ain't no carpenter. (To steal a line from one of my fav movies. ;D )

terrifictimbersllc

Just a partial answer. 
What I hear is always saw what you don't have.  That's what people want.  :D
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Andries

Some half baked answers from up North:
1. Wholesalers usually buy lumber in thousands of board feet (semi truckloads) at a time. Lumber yards buy from the wholesalers My guess is that selling via Craigslist would be a better fit for you. Competing with lumber yards is a small % and high volume business.
2. The price of standard sized,  kiln dried lumber is 100 - 300% higher than most of us have ever seen. Your timing is good/great. However, have you got a logyard, lumber yard and a kiln? Air dried lumber is a lot less $ than kiln dried.
3. Experienced woodworkers will buy rough lumber, straight offa the mill, but most want to see what the grain looks like. That requires a very smooth surface,  which is achieved with a planer. A very light planing or skip planing does that. However, a whole lot of the public wants completely smooth, straight and very dry lumber.  Stuff that is ready to use on a project. You'll need a planer to do that.
.
This Web site is a deep dive on everything relating to wood products. With a background in engineering, you'll have an edge up on the construction based theory and practice of building. However, the post by terrific timbers alludes to the money making side of the biz. Customers will pay a huge premium for specific species slabs with a tonne of character, but, really, is an otherwise junky chunk of cellulose fibre. Run a Forum search on "highly valuable walnut" to see what I'm talking about.
At an entry level of knowledge to this quirky business, wrapping your head around those details may be the biggest challenge.
Wishing you all the best in your endeavours. 
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

chestnut

  I went down the same road that you're headed. Got tired of turning big straight trees into firewood. I bought a bandmill and its been fun and it paid for itself over the years.

 1.  Most of what I sell is on FB marketplace or craigslist.

 2. Prices vary by tree and grade.  You can get an idea of price based on what others are selling the same type (walnut, cherry, oak etc )

 3. I sell 90% of my lumber rough (unplaned) and air dried.  You don't get as much money for it this way but your not throwing it in your stove either. ;D

As a side note.  I weren't no carpenter either when I started but I have a full blown woodshop now and make alot of furniture during the winter months. 

DixieReb31

I am in SC also.  Just received my LT35 and have been going hard.  I plan on doing something similar, I am retired and want to supplement my income without working for anyone else.  Good luck and maybe we will meet up sometime.
WM LT35HD, John Deere 2040, John Deere 4044 w/FEL, Grapple, forks.

Brad_bb

Getting a sawmill right now will be more than a year or two years ago.  Some mills are a year out on orders.  A used mill might be a quicker option if you can find one. I say just start out doing it for fun.  Air dry it (you can learn here how to stack and sticker it and where to put it and cover it for air drying), and try selling some.  If you can find a specialty niche market, even better.  For example, it you specialize in quarter sawn material, or slabs.  I specialize in live edge and crooked timber for timberframing, but I don't sell any, I use it myself.  So I don't know what the market would be for it. I know other timberframers that use it but have to do it themselves.  Most sawyers don't understand what we're looking for, the characteristics and all, but if you learn it, it's a specialty.  Once my projects are done, I may try selling some.

Would you get a manual mill or a hydraulic mill?

Planing would be an "extra".  Sure you could have planed material examples around, but if someone wants a board planed or just skip planed, you charge so much per Board foot.  Yellowhammer I think has talked about it quite a bit.  Each extra, whether it's planing, or straight line edging, is an extra per BF charge.  The customer can decide what they want.  There are also alot of good threads on here about the business end of things, when money is required, simple sawing contracts etc.  Communication and documentation is critical to avoid issues.  Photographing every thing that's loaded so someone can't claim you didn't load something, or you can prove that you did.  This has proven invaluable on the construction side.  Photo everything that comes off the truck and photo anything you send on a truck.  You need to be able to prove what transpired a month, 3 months and a year from now.

As has been said, your first customers will probably be locals you find via CL and marketplace.  Furniture makers want dry wood 6-8% moisture content.  You could build a solar kiln or three, but construction lumber is so expensive right now....If you have access to pine, spruce, or similar you can cut and air dry it for your own use.  Until now I was assuming you'd be cutting hardwood(all I have access to), but not sure if you could get up to speed on pine to kiln dry it and sell it before the price starts coming back down(I hope).  This game does involve some up front capital investment, but if you can start with the mill and get some stacks air drying, you can see how you like milling and if you want to continue.  If you don't you probably will get most of your money back out of the mill in the next year.  There will be a time is a couple or a few years when the market will likely get flooded with used sawmills though and people will be getting less.  I went with Woodmizer because they are one of the top players and I knew parts and service would be available.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

YellowHammer

1.  Sell lumber to people who buy it not people who resell it.  People who resell it make their Net by buying cheap and selling for profit. If you are selling to them, they will buy yours cheap and sell high.  You want to be the one selling high.  So you sell to customers, not suppliers.  

2.  Get a copy of the Hardwood Market Report.  They list current selling prices for any marketable species in the US, as a function of quality, species, thickness, dryness and region.

3.  Planing is a finishing step.  Pretty much at the end of the process.  Each step in the process ads value and costs money and time.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

rasawing

I appreciate the feedback I have gotten so far. I am going to call around (to local wholesalers and so on) to get some prices. Then maybe compare to what individual people are selling for on places like craigslist. 

The problem with me selling it myself (on line).....I just don't want to sit around and have to fill orders.....I just want to mill it and take it somewhere when I want to take it. (I do (after all) have another day job.)

Thanks again for the info. 

DennisK

saw for yourself first, saw for extra what you will need later, saw for scrap you might need, saw for for future projects you don't have yet. WORD of mouth will let you know.

WV Sawmiller

rasawing,

   Why would you think you'd have to sit around? Post on your advertising "By appointment only" and stick to that. For special orders get a hefty deposit and if they are late or no show they forfeit or pay a penalty as you decide.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

alan gage

Just remember that if you want to sell wholesale to lumberyards then this is your competition:

Logs to Lumber - An aerial journey through the sawmill - YouTube

And theirs is kiln dried, planed, and stamped/graded.

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

rasawing

QuoteWhy would you think you'd have to sit around? Post on your advertising "By appointment only" and stick to that. For special orders get a hefty deposit and if they are late or no show they forfeit or pay a penalty as you decide.

I guess I could do that.....but as someone who has been on both sides of the order aspect of business......I have to say: that can get tricky. For starters, the customer will gripe that what they saw on line isn't what they got. Next, they will say it didn't make it on time (when it did). Stuff like that. I loathe dealing with the general public.

QuoteJust remember that if you want to sell wholesale to lumberyards then this is your competition:

..............

And theirs is kiln dried, planed, and stamped/graded. 

No doubt. But there is something appealing about taking it to a yard (when I want to) and getting the cash without a lot of questions after the fact. Yeah you will get less......just how much less I am trying to find out now.

rasawing

A few more questions (they are numbered consecutively from the questions in the OP so we don't lose track):

4. I am seeing a lot of mills out there. Some as cheap as 4k (not counting the "Alaska" mills with a chainsaw).....some as much as 25k+. What kind of mill can I expect on the low end? Something that is just going to break down all the time? (As the saying goes: you get what you pay for.) 

5. What kind of cuts are most in demand? 2x12, 2x6, 6x6, etc? I ask because I've thought about just milling 6"x6" columns (via a Alaskan mill). But I don't know what is or isn't in demand.

6. How much cure time (via air cure) should I give it before selling it? Do the people who run these yards have a target moisture content they are looking for?

Thanks again.



Roundhouse

Quote from: rasawing on April 28, 2021, 12:48:50 PM
QuoteWhy would you think you'd have to sit around? Post on your advertising "By appointment only" and stick to that. For special orders get a hefty deposit and if they are late or no show they forfeit or pay a penalty as you decide.

I guess I could do that.....but as someone who has been on both sides of the order aspect of business......I have to say: that can get tricky. For starters, the customer will gripe that what they saw on line isn't what they got. Next, they will say it didn't make it on time (when it did). Stuff like that. I loathe dealing with the general public.

QuoteJust remember that if you want to sell wholesale to lumberyards then this is your competition:

..............

And theirs is kiln dried, planed, and stamped/graded.

No doubt. But there is something appealing about taking it to a yard (when I want to) and getting the cash without a lot of questions after the fact. Yeah you will get less......just how much less I am trying to find out now.
I'm in a similar position. I've milled my own logs into my own lumber for my own use, so far. I have a small supply of air-dried hardwood lumber that now slightly exceeds my own needs. It sure would be nice to sell some of this to clear up some space and generate a little side-income. For the hassle reasons you list above selling directly is a turn-off that I've avoided and I don't have anywhere near enough to go wholesale anywhere. Here is what I'm considering but haven't pursued any farther, using an auction house to sell small lots. 
On the upside you decide when you drop off the lumber and bypass the scheduling, dickering, loading, any complaints afterward. The only downside is you give a cut of the price to the auction house, may be well worth the saved hassle. If you want zero customer interaction this is probably the way to go, they get the lumber, you get the money (at least most of it), and they don't know you from Adam.
Interestingly, the auctions I've watched don't even describe the lots in board feet but the basic dimensions with photos. The items are available for inspection ahead of the sale so I imagine a woodworker is able to look it over ahead of bidding if they desire. I've seen stacks of live edge slabs sell this same way. It can't be much simpler, pile what you want to sell on a pallet and drop it off at the auction house. I may be trying this later this year myself. I imagine if you have a lot of lumber to sell this is probably not a wise approach and if you enter too many of lots of identical species and dimensions in the same sale you'd be competing against yourself and watering down the top bids. 
If anyone here has already done this I'd love to hear of any benefits or pitfalls I'm missing. Seems like the easiest way to sell small bundles to customers while farming out the legwork. For example here are a couple auctions that closed local to me (I am neither seller nor buyer nor auctioneer) earlier this month:





Woodland Mills HM130, 1995 F350 7.3L, 1994 F350 flatbed/crane, 1988 F350 dump, Owatonna 770 rough terrain forklift, 1938 Allis-Chalmers reverse WC tractor loader, 1979 Ford CL340 Skid Steer, 1948 Allis-Chalmers B, 1988 Yamaha Moto-4 200, various chain saws

WV Sawmiller

  If I did not want to deal with the public I'd rethink my sawmilling career. If you had a friend or acquaintance who would market for you and take orders that might be an option but you'd have to share the income and such. The auction option below was added by roundhouse while I was typing this and may be right up your alley. First I have seen of that option and it is interesting.

   I'd hate to specialize in one size product as there would be so much waste if you did. I sawed 65 2X10X16 floor joists for a customer a couple weeks ago and in the process we salvaged 150 8'2X4's out of the side lumber which we also sold. When you think of sawing you better think of saving every useable piece of wood and be looking for a market for your slabs and sawdust. 

   Cuts in demand depend on your customers. Builders want different sizes than woodworkers and different species. On my last mobile job last weekend I sawed from 1/2" to 4"X5" posts and everything in between. Flexibility is the key. Remember there is a big difference in being a sawmill and a lumberyard. Which do you want to be? If a sawmiller check with the different wood users in the area and see what is needed and that you could produce. Know that it is going to take some time and experience to prove yourself before lots of people feel confident enough they can depend on you to commit to more work.

   If you are sawing commercially I would think at a minimum a hydraulic mill with several options to increase production. You can produce wood products to sell on a manual mill but they tend to be smaller more specialty items or huge items like 45' beams or such then you have to have other equipment to handle the logs, cants and finished beams so its not going to be a cheap start-up. If you are planning on producing typical building lumber like framing (2X4, 2X6, 2X8, etc) or sheeting/sheathing you are going to need decent hp and hydraulics and expect to pay more than $25K I'm thinking. 

   Do you have or are you going to buy the logs? If buying them what is your source? What is the cost and availability and how dependable is the source? Are you interested in portable sawing of customer logs? If so you are back to dealing with the public. 
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

rasawing

Quote Do you have or are you going to buy the logs? If buying them what is your source? What is the cost and availability and how dependable is the source? Are you interested in portable sawing of customer logs? 

Like I said in my first post on this thread: "I am somebody that owns some land and occasionally I get a surplus of wood (beyond what I need for firewood)."


rasawing

QuoteHere is what I'm considering but haven't pursued any farther, using an auction house to sell small lots.

Interesting idea Roundhouse. (Although I cannot think of a local auction that does this sort of thing. Maybe I need to look harder at that.)


VB-Milling

Quote from: rasawing on April 28, 2021, 03:54:49 PM
Interesting idea Roundhouse. (Although I cannot think of a local auction that does this sort of thing. Maybe I need to look harder at that.)

Be careful!  Once you start looking for auctions and find them, you can't stop!
HM126

alan gage

Hard to tell how much wood in the pics but it looks like the ash sold for .66/bf and maybe $1/bf for the cherry. Then you're paying commission. Doesn't look like a real good deal to me.

To the original poster: Do you have a personal use for any of this wood? If you do then getting a cheaper mill can make sense and selling some of what you don't need yourself can put a little change in your pocket. If you only want to saw wood to sell retail then you better plan on investing $100k plus (and probably a lot more), hire some employees, and make it a full time job...plus you might need to keep your other full time job on top of that.

If you only want to saw wood and sell wholesale then don't even bother. Look around here. Read. Search the archives. See what guys are and aren't doing. There's a reason part time bandsaw millers concentrate on custom sawing or specialty retail wood that's not available elsewhere. If it was easy and profitable to break into the wholesale market they'd be doing it.

If you have good sawlogs and want to turn them into some money then maybe you should sell them to a mill? Requires no investment, puts the logs to a good use, and gets you some money. If they aren't good enough to sell to a mill then they probably aren't good enough for you to saw and sell wholesale.

If you just want a sawmill then that's great. Go for it. But have realistic expectations. You can spend a little and keep yourself well supplied with lumber and maybe sell some retail on the side. But if you want to play with the big boys it takes a big commitment.

When I got a sawmill I had great expectations of making a good part time living doing custom sawing and selling lumber. I quickly spent about $50k total for a rusty partially hydraulic mill that had sat outside for 15 years and needed to be rebuilt (would have been $15-20k new), a skidloader with 3000 hours to move logs and lumber, 4 acres of land, a 24x40 open sided building for air drying, a deckover trailer for hauling logs and lumber, and a '95 3/4 ton pickup. I got a great deal on some of this (especially the land, which was only $4500).

I've been happily sawing with it for the last few years but quickly found out just how much work it is. Sawing is the fun easy part. It's the rest of the process that Youtube videos don't show that takes all the time. There has been very little demand for custom sawing around here and the logs people have supplied have mostly been junk. So either they pay extra for less lumber or I make less per hour sawing bad logs. Due to lack of time I've decided to stop custom sawing and concentrate and just sawing for myself.

Lumber sales have been hit and miss. I've sold a fair amount on FB marketplace but, again, it takes time to put together the ads, talk to people, schedule appointments, meet with them, etc. I again decided that my limited free time was better spent doing other things, like sawing for myself or doing my many other projects. Overall it just wasn't worth it to me. I still sell a little here and there but when I saw I saw what I think I might use instead of what I think other people want to buy.

So that's where I sit today. $50k invested into sawing my own lumber. I'm not complaining though. I've made great use of the truck and skidloader and absolutely love the land. I wouldn't sell any of it. I've used a lot of my lumber and have plans to use a lot more over the next few years.

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

SpaceBus

What's the general pricing per board foot of rough sawn lumber? I have had my mill for almost a year now and am thinking about offering mobile sawyer services or having people bring logs to me. My mill is a Logosol F2+ so the throughput is a bit lower, charging by the hour would be problematic in my case. I'm certainly not trying to be a full time sawyer, just hoping to make back what I spent on the mill. 
Logosol F2+
Various Chainsaws

alan gage

Quote from: alan gage on April 28, 2021, 03:58:35 PM


So that's where I sit today. $50k invested into sawing my own lumber.

I should clarify that that $50k didn't get me shiny new things, it got me a bunch of rusted out junk that no one else wanted (including the land). It all works but none of it will win any beauty contests and if you gave me $50k tomorrow and told me to go shopping there's no way I could get what I did for that price again. For about 2 months the stars aligned and things seemed to fall in my lap.
Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

chestnut

Quote from: rasawing on April 28, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
A few more questions (they are numbered consecutively from the questions in the OP so we don't lose track):

4. I am seeing a lot of mills out there. Some as cheap as 4k (not counting the "Alaska" mills with a chainsaw).....some as much as 25k+. What kind of mill can I expect on the low end? Something that is just going to break down all the time? (As the saying goes: you get what you pay for.)

5. What kind of cuts are most in demand? 2x12, 2x6, 6x6, etc? I ask because I've thought about just milling 6"x6" columns (via a Alaskan mill). But I don't know what is or isn't in demand.

6. How much cure time (via air cure) should I give it before selling it? Do the people who run these yards have a target moisture content they are looking for?

Thanks again.
4.  I paid around 6k for a woodmizer lt15 15 years ago.  I'm sure there's cheaper mills that work just fine and I know there's  more expensive ones that work better and faster. 
 5.  If you start by cutting 4/4 ( 1 inch ) boards you won't have any problem selling them if the price is right.
  6.  I put the dry time in the advertisement. If it's fresh off the mill tell them. If it's air dried a year tell them.
As an example. Here's a stack I sold last fall on facebook. Advertised as fresh off the mill black cherry $2.50 bd/ft. Take all or one board. It was gone in 2days.


 

rasawing


Brad_bb

4. You will generally get into manual mills - manual log turning, manual lifting on one end to level the pith as needed etc.  Manual mills will be slower/have a lower output per hour.  Hydraulic mills - hyd log turning, hyd clamps, hyd loading arms, debarkers etc, will increase output speed.  It depends on what you are trying to do, and your physical capabilities.
5.I didn't see you answer what you would be cutting, hardwood, softwood, or both?  Right now, if you're cutting pine, I'd cut dimensional lumber given the high prices.  That will come down though in time.  With hardwood it depends on what you are cutting.  If cutting grade boards like oak or ash, 5/4.  If walnut, 5/4,6/4 boards ,8/4, 9/4 slabs.   You might consider what Magicman does.  He only does mobile milling of customers logs.  He doesn't have to deal with any cutting size speculations, or do any selling of wood, or keep any inventory, or use space at home.  You only have to deal with the one customer you are hired by.  A service rather than products.  If you go that way, read the thread on his sawing contract.
6.  It generally takes hardwood 5/4 boards a year of air drying to get to ambient moisture content in your area. It varies with species, thickness, etc.  Again to eliminate that, be a service, not a product seller.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

rasawing

Even more questions:

7. What thickness should I target? If I was expecting this stuff to be planed (by someone else).....should I mill to a extra 1/8th (or whatever) in anticipation of this? 

8. What to do with the sawdust pile? I have got a place to dump it.....but my concern is fire. (Spontaneous.) Is there a point after which it is no longer a concern? (Say after it has been rotting for a few years?) 


Thank You Sponsors!