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Milling Western Red Cedar

Started by Ruffneck, May 29, 2014, 12:55:20 AM

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Ruffneck

I like everything about Western Red Cedar except clamping it to my manual LT 35 and getting it to fit. Like clamping a football :D
I started a big job for me a few days ago, of course the first log in the lineup was huge with a bunch of rot. My "customer/partner" on this job loaded the behemoth on the mill and I got to work on it. That thing turned to sawdust and I got ants in my pants as I tried to get something out of it. :o
Most miserable day at the mill. 8 hours with hardly anything worthwhile...
The following shifts turned out much more productive, so I continue this crazy grind on the WRC. So another 32 on the mill it is. 

 
I run into problems witling  these things to fit. 

  
I do have toe boards a try to level the logs to get the best cut when it looks like rot, and try to box that out.
There is some good wood in there, I just want to learn to get the most of these rotten ends. Making 1x4 is quit the grind, but when it's straight grained quarter sawn, it make it all worth it ;D
Any pointers or recommendations will be considered  :D
Thanks in advance!
Ruffneck

backwoods sawyer

Yep clamping takes a light touch with WRC ;)
Nice job on rounding up the log.
Take that one inclusion/crack in one board, if the ants set up a big nest about all you can do is cut around the nest. A squirt bottle on mist with diesle in it can make a safety zone for you ;D
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

redbeard

Even though the center looks soft the wood right up to the soft rot is good. The best cedar is just past the sap wood. If your wanting quarter sawn and the center is rotten quarter the log up with chainsaw and mill quarters individually. If you got a good table saw set up you can max your widths WI it. On the big oversize logs I like to cut paths for guide rollers usually only have to do one or two and  take the boards of evenly till the center can't starts to fall apart. You can get a lot more wider boards this way.
Whidbey Woodworks and Custom Milling  2019 Cooks AC 3662T High production band mill and a Hud-son 60 Diesel wide cut bandmill  JD 2240 50hp Tractor with 145 loader IR 1044 all terrain fork lift  Cooks sharp

Ruffneck

I have my rhythm going now. Strip the bark,  partner loads with bobcat, cut, dead stack, trim, edge, clean up and load another... It's a grind fer sure. I did 600 total board feet today. Broke a blade somehow too. Cutting along nicely and it just broke. Could be an older blade. Do they just fail like that at some point?
I was guessing there were two truck loads, my partner is saying there were a total of three...
Going back tomorrow and picking up my share Saturday. PAYDAY  8)
Back at the grind tomorrow ;D

  

Brucer

When you've got any sign of decay in WRC it can pop out anywhere.

If it looks like it's confined to the centre of the log, I raise the small end until the top of the log is level. That way I'm cutting parallel to the top and avoiding as much rot as I can.

Back in 2006 I sawed a bunch of FOHC 8x8x16' WRC for a timber frame :o. That was on my manual mill -- took a lot of work and there were a few heartaches when the log was opened up. Mind you, the customer was the regional manager for a huge timber outfit and had access to some pretty amazing Cedar.

I always found WRC was hard on the blades. They dulled quickly and I really had to open up the blade lube to keep the blade cool.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Baxterkd

I see this is an older thread but thought I would start here. I have a Norwood LM29 and just received 60 m³ of WRC. Looking to maximize the amount of lumber I can get and especially learn how to deal with the center rot. I'm lucky as most seem to be in good shape but there's a few bad ones. Cutting parallel to the bark will yield good wood but I guess you loose length quickly? Brucer: Thank you for the tip on running extra water. With center rot is it even worth quarter sawing and if it's a solid log adjusting for taper is the best method? 

Any thoughts or tips are greatly appreciated. My needs are rather simple but recouping some of my cost for the rest of the wood is somewhat my main priority. There's some big trees in there. 

Thank you! 
Operating a B738 Pays for the obsession to turn trees into cool stuff. The more natural you can keep a piece of wood the better the project.

Brucer

Sawing WRC is always a bit of a crap shoot. I always try to have plans 'B' & 'C' for when things go wrong.

The sapwood on a living WRC log is very resistant to insects and decay. The reddish heartwood decays relatively easily. (It's the other way round once the tree has died). The only way decay can get started in a living tree is if there's a break somewhere in the sapwood: a chunk torn out of the tree, a broken branch, or a broken root. If it's one of the latter the decay will spread relatively quickly along the pith of the broken limb, through to the centre of the tree. Then it will spread up and down the pith.

Once decay is established in the tree, it'll spread away from the centre. It's pretty hard to predict where it will go. Sometimes it will be nicely behaved and stay in a long cone in the centre of the tree. Other times it will pop out in little pockets all over the tree.

If there's any sign of decay, I'll assume it starts near the centre. I'll level the log so the top is parallel to the mill and make a face cut that's approximately uniform in width along its length. If there's no sign of decay I'll take a flitch off the top. This is a good time to inspect the knots for decay. It gets in through a broken limb, but it will also grow back out the centre of a branch.

Once I've got one face open, I'll roll the log and open three more faces. Usually when you find decay on a face, you can expect it to get worse on each subsequent cut. If that happens, I abandon that side and see if any of the other faces are any better. Sometimes I can get a sense of where the decay is going and saw around it. Sometimes I lose :(.

Generally I try to saw larger pieces to start with, and plan to make them into smaller pieces if decay show up. Sometimes I will find a small pocket of decay at one end disappears two or three inches into the cut ;D. Sometimes I'll end up with a pile of sawdust, decay, and toothpicks  :( .

I've never had trouble selling 1" cedar in any width (actual thickness is 7/8) so that is my last resort with a crummy log. Salvage what I can and set it aside (stickered!) to sell later.

One thing to watch with WRC -- it moves!! As you saw away the sapwood the natural stresses in the log rebalance themselves the face you're sawing tends to bow up toward the blade. You can hold the log or cant straight with the clamp, but as soon as you release it the can will bow. The best way to deal with this is to saw a couple of boards off once side, then flip it over before it start to bow.

If you've got a rectangular cant on the mill, with no wane showing on once face, you can clamp it down tight and saw down all the way to within and inch or so of the deck.

When you get a nice log with no decay, sawing WRC can be a dream. When you run into decay log after log, it makes you want to quit.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

petefrom bearswamp

No dog in this fight anymore cause mill is long gone.
I only sawed old wrc power poles, butt dipped and incised and probably 50 years in the ground.
Some were in excess of 20" diameter.
Sawed above the creosote and they made some really nice lumber, but as you can imagine, really dry.
Best part is they were free.
I made Adirondack chairs from these boards and the only issue was some splitting when screwed if I didnt pay attention.
BTW do miss the mill some especially now that the snow is 90 percent gone.
decay is spoke of as an issue here but why did the eastern utilities use them even tho creosote in the first 6' or so.
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Andries

We're far far away from where the WRC comes from, but they can travel pretty far.


 
The building plans at the time were for big timbers, half logs, flooring, and roof decking. Anything with a straight cut was mine to do. 
If you've got big logs and long lengths, you really really have to wrap you head around the "law" that you don't put hands on anything you're milling. It's all about the hydraulics.


 
@Brucer is bang on with his advice. Mill it to 4/4 at any width or length, and you'll be able to sell all your milled lumber quickly. 



Especially in this market. I use -40 C windshield blade lube, don't worry about the blue tint, it doesn't transfer.



Dr Wood pointed out that there were pitch pockets, of incredibly sappy, pulpy wood. Similar to the rot that Brucer wrote about. Unlike Brucer, we don't find hardly any reactive wood in WRC. It's like a golden lab puppy - the same colour and wanting to please. 
I'm guessing you're a Canadian, like myself, because you referred to the logs being bought by the cubic meter. Adding a bit more info to your profile would help folks give advice that works best for your area. 
Cutting around junk wood it part of the gig, but you have a log supply that's in high demand. You should be able to cover your costs without much problem.
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

Brucer

Quote from: petefrom bearswamp on March 23, 2021, 07:05:03 PM
...  decay is spoke of as an issue here but why did the eastern utilities use them even tho creosote in the first 6' or so.

As I said, in the living tree the (pale) sapwood is decay resistant, while the (reddish) heartwood is prone to decay. It's the other way around when the tree is dead.

Plant a 6" diameter fencepost made from the top of a WRC in the ground. A couple of years later the sapwood will be rotting away at ground level, leaving a 4" diameter core of heartwood (which will break off easily because cedar isn't all that strong). Cut off the sapwood from an 8" diameter top before you plant the post (think Lathe-Mizer) and it will last a lot longer.

On the living trees, you will often see rectangular holes in the side, made by pileated woodpeckers. They're going after carpenter ants. The ants don't like the heartwood, but once the heartwood has decay, it's the perfect medium for them to build nests. So ... decay gets in through a broken branch or root, the heartwood decays, ants follow the decay inside and up the tree, and woodpeckers land on the tree looking for a meal. You can watch a woodpecker land on a tree, give it a couple of hard "taps", and turn it's head to listen. It might repeat that a couple of times and then it will either fly away (no ants) or start pecking like mad (food!).

The logs used to make power poles are premium logs. There's a pole mill just down the road and they hired me four years ago to try to recover saleable wood from their rejects. It was a real eye-opener watching the pole operation. Whole logs are put into a peeler -- basically a giant lathe except the log moves through the cutting head. That takes off all the bark and a good deal of the sapwood.

Peeled logs are laid out on bunks and visually inspected down their length. Every knot get's checked for decay. When they find any decay they'll stick the tip of a chainsaw in to see how deep the decay goes. More than an inch and they figure the decay is too deep. If they only issue is near one end, they'll saw off the end and see if the rest of the log is sound. If not they'll keep cutting back every few feet until they hit sound wood. If what's left is still long enough for a pole, they'll keep it. Otherwise it gets sold off to local cedar mills (or sent over to my mill to try to recover high value lumber for them).

WRC is decay resistant, not decay proof. If you keep the moisture content below 19%, or keep it away from oxygen (buried deep) it won't rot. Raise the moisture content and expose it to the air and it'll decay -- just more slowly than other woods. WRC poles are treated with creosote on the butt end because that's where they'll get permanently exposed to moisture. Above ground any rain or snow that gets on the tree will evaporate before it has a chance to penetrate and raise the moisture content.

Back in 2001 the local utility upgraded their distribution system from 2400 V. to 14,000 V. For safety, they had to replace all their 35' distribution poles with 45' poles. At my place they couldn't take the old poles out until the telephone company had shifted their lines to the new poles. The phone company sent people out to assess the job 4 times :o over the next 16 years but the lines never got moved. Finally in 2017 the original poles got pulled out (they were placed in 1981) and I got a chance to have a close look at a WRC pole that had been in the ground for 36 years. Still perfectly sound. They even offered to cut off and dispose of the butts and leave me the tops to mill. No thanks -- way too much metal in them and very hard on saw blades.

Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Brucer

Quote from: Andries on March 23, 2021, 08:51:33 PM
... Unlike Brucer, we don't find hardly any reactive wood in WRC. It's like a golden lab puppy - the same colour and wanting to please.

Is that WRC from the coast, Andries? Coastal red cedar is a lot bigger, a lot more stable, and a lot less prone to decay than interior WRC.

The log grading rules are different for the interior cedar because anything over 20" diameter is a lot more likely to have center rot than it is on the coast.

@Percy has some great photos of large timbers milled from coastal WRC. Makes me jealous every time I look at them.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Silverfoxfintry

It's 23:38 hrs in Scotland tonight. It's cold and dark. We even had snow today.
Our climate on the west coast is similar to your Pacific North west. Although we don't get the very cold winters.
We have some specimen trees we call "Giant Redwood" some are very tall,
over 40m. The bark is very thick and soft. Our local one is known as "the punchey tree" because you can't hurt your hand punching it.
The heart wood is Pink.
Is this the species you call Western red cedar?
We have milled one a few years ago, it was over 2m in diameter at the base and over 30m high. It had to come down in 5m sections.
We were given another one last week. Free to take away. Not so big , but still about 25m high.
I will post some pictures when we get it on the mill.
Take care.
Silverfox 

Woodpecker52

My house exterior is WRC with Redwood facia boards, built in 1978 have stained it about 3 times since, not a speck of rot anywhere.  I am a firm believer in WRC and redwood and spruce studs as building materials.
Woodmizer LT-15, Ross Pony #1 planner, Ford 2600 tractor, Stihl chainsaws, Kubota rtv900 Kubota L3830F tractor

Brucer

Silverfox, the Western Red Cedar I work with has relatively thin bark. Something as big around as you describe might have thicker bark. The main characteristic of the bark is that it's very tough and stringy along the length of the trunk (or log), but very weak and easy to separate around the circumference of the tree.

It can be a pain to saw because those long, tough fibers plug up the sawdust shoot, get wrapped around bearings and shafts, etc.

As for size, the ones growing out my back door are typically 500 to 600 mm diameter at the butt, and 24 to 30 metres tall.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Baxterkd

@brucer Thank you again for your experience and insight. It's greatly appreciated. Everyone has been so helpful.

@Andries Yes, I'm Canadian. Your -40 washer fluid comment puts you well East of where cedar grows. I've spent lots of time in Manitoba.

@Silverfoxfintry I've lived in Aberdeen for a year. Your West coast and interior have some nice trees.

Operating a B738 Pays for the obsession to turn trees into cool stuff. The more natural you can keep a piece of wood the better the project.

Andries

Quote from: Brucer on March 24, 2021, 12:28:46 AMIs that WRC from the coast, Andries? 
@Brucer, sorry for being a slacker with my response.
Yes, coastal wr cedar.


 
It is a very stable wood to work with.


 
LT40G25
Ford 545D loader
Stihl chainsaws

JRWoodchuck

Andries would love to see some more details on those stairs!
Home built bandsaw mill still trying find the owners manual!

Baxterkd

@Brucer I can't believe how much it bows. I'm in the middle of quarter sawing a smaller 8' log. Would it be wise to mill a little thicker than 4/4 to leave room for planing it out later? Just getting it clamped down is a time consuming feat let alone quarter sawing it. 
Operating a B738 Pays for the obsession to turn trees into cool stuff. The more natural you can keep a piece of wood the better the project.

Brucer

If you're planning to plane the wood anyway, yes, cut some extra thickness. If you want it roughsawn, you can cut it thicker and then resaw it flat. If you're going that route, be sure to keep the saw blade buried in the wood. Once you've got a board separated from the rest of the cant, it's usually pretty stable.

Bow (the wide face bends) is often not a problem on thinner material. Crook (the narrow face bends is always a problem.

Every WRC log is an adventure. Back when I was chainsaw milling, I once square up an 8" x 11" cant and started taking 2" thick 2x8's off it. Half way down the 16' cant the board had moved sideways a full 1-1/2" (crook). When I finished the cut and levered the board off, it was dead straight ???. I took another look at the cant and realized it was the cant that was moving :o.

WRC logs from different areas can behave differently. You'll probably waste a few boards before you get a feel for working with it.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Baxterkd

 

 

 I don't let much go to waste I'll find something to make with it. Thank you again for the helpful advice. It's amazing how much it moves. I had both bows and crooks today. Sawing is new to me and I'm finding it rather meditative. 

Operating a B738 Pays for the obsession to turn trees into cool stuff. The more natural you can keep a piece of wood the better the project.

handhewn

I am curious, I have seen no comments (regarding WRC) that mention "peck". For those who have not seen "peck", it is where you see varying degrees of large brown pockets in the wood mostly towards the center.  Is peck common only on the west coast? We sure get a lot of it here. Depending on the amount of peck you will saw the log differently or if there is to much peck you might throw the center of the log away. I have seen huge piles of large logs (40" and 50" Dia.) left in the woods by diamond lumber years ago. They were left as culls. Peck makes for pretty wood but it is structurally weak and messy and many times containing huge ant nests that pour out bucket's of ants such that you need to work somewhere else for a while. Those cull piles produced many many cedar rails like those I see now that sell for $10.00 each. I used to split approx. 150 ea. per day. They made for some profitable days way back then even at the $4.00 I was getting then.

Brucer

Lots of references in my posts. Peck => rot => decay.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

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