What to buy *used* first? Skidsteer, atv (log arch), tractor, forklift etc.

[der7]

I am on a three year plan to open up a small business in selling lumber, insulation, and other construction supplies.  Think of me as a small lumber yard in the country with extras.  I have finally cleared 3 acres for doing this and am debating what to buy first as I can only afford one piece of machinery in the next 3 years.  I want to keep clearing another 5 acres of my land and would like to use the lumber from my trees to help me build.  I can use my land anyway I want and have no restrictions where I am located in Missouri.

I've got 600 amps of single phase power and three phase electricity prepped for my 100 x 100 shop, a front parking lot for cars, gravel roads to go to the back for big trucks (logs etc.) shipping and receiving, a water well, septic system etc.  Basically all the infrastructure is done and now it's time to build my front end store and my back lumber yard area and wood shop/solar kiln/shipping area etc.  The trick is I have been renting gear and hired diggers up to this point.  I think using hired helpers initially was a good idea.  I've had a chance to see the pros and cons on using dozers, skidsteers, excavators, and tractors for different things.  But now the clearing and prep work is done and financially I can't keep hiring others to do the upkeep that I need to do myself.

Oh and did I mention I don't have a pickup yet!!!  I need to maintain my 7 acres and have no equipment yet.  I don't even have a rider lawnmower and have used a push mower way beyond it's normal intent.   :D  Though I do have neighbors who are helpful I really need something of my own to work with on a daily basis.    Instead I have a 12 foot enclosed trailer and a Durango with plans to get a 16' flatbed as well.  Oh and perhaps trade out the Durango for a Truck.

I already have a few contracts for selling some items and have drop ships show up periodically.  I would like to be able to move and maintain my prepped yard but I would also like to manage my dirt roads and the rest of my acres.  I've debated buying a used skidsteer and a used atv with an arch for clearing out the rest of my property.  I am thinking that I could use the skidsteer as a forklift for my shipping and deliveries, and also to keep the yard clean as I will be using a swing blade mill for some of my lumber needs.  I've heard forklifts are much better in the yard for loading and unloading and have no experience in using one versus other machinery with forklift attachments.  But a tractor with a backhoe looks like a nice option for maintaining the rest of my property and skidding logs. 

For me it's a toss up because I wish I could afford all of it but I can't yet.  I was also thinking I could get a digger later on to get rid of all the stumps from the trees I'm clearing.  Based on my goals and needs what would you get of the above options first and why?

Thanks for your input!

[Wallys World]

First, where are located? (city, state) What kind of road are you located on? State, County, Town? Is it paved? Any bridges you need to worry about moving large trucks on? Where is your nearest competition? If it was me on the equipment end, I would get a tractor with a backhoe. We have 100 acres and I first purchased a JD Gator, a stump grinder and a chipper to help in the land clearing, then the backhoe. (It took several years to get it all) We could control most of the building of our shop (35 x 56) without waiting for others. I used the equipment to do jobs for hire when we were not using it ourselves. We did already have a sub compact tractor when we moved here that had a mower deck and a brush hog, so we were a step up from where you are at now. Also we had our two trucks and trailers already (we moved ourselves).
We had the land here for 11 years before making the move. Look at our gallery and you will see pictures of many of our equipment and stuff.

[der7]

I'm in Cedar County Missouri.  No bridges to be concerned about.  There is a highway road that is paved off my main road.  I'm right across from a steel shop.  Though it's a country road, it's on a loop off the paved road and is well maintained because of the shop across the street.  Heavy large truck loads are hauled on the road everyday.  My plan was to use gravel on my roads and pack it down real good.  That's what the steel shop does and it seems to work pretty good.

Most of the trees we have are white/red oak, cedar, and black walnut.  I would like to trade some of this wood out for pine as I am mostly in construction of new homes.  But for finish work what's available is great.  Originally I was only going to use wood for myself but with all I have going on I found I have a niche market with several local builders.  I've also started building homes and having the equipment fits my needs.  Having a small lumber yard is just an extension of my niche market and has some potential.  Either way I need some equipment. Obviously the 3 acres is just for the business, with the trees on my property for my own personal use.  But I have access to a lot of trees around here and would like to buy a lot more land in the future once I've built and sold more homes.  I also have a commercial lot in town that is just about paid off and a few home lots.  The city has approved me in building homes on those which overtime I plan to do.  I'm also debating on building a commercial lease space or building another business on my commercial lot.  So my options in the future look promising.  (And yes I mow all these lots with just one push mower and one trimmer.  8) )

[Ianab]

I'd be thinking a decent tractor would be the most versatile. Maybe not the best for each task, but able to do most of them, Especially with a front end loader, backhoe and other attachments.  With an arch you can skid decent size logs even with a smaller tractor.

[shinnlinger]

I'm with Ian.   A tractor has the most versatility.   Forks on the loader and its a forklift.    Mower on the back, etc.    the amount you need to pay usually diminishes proportionally  the bigger the machine is.  A 60 horse tractor is not 2x the price of a 30 horse unit.  I would think you would want closer to 60 horse than 30 but your property isn't huge and a smaller machine might fit it better.   

 

[thechknhwk]

If you anticipate loading and unloading truck and trailer I would go with a tractor that has at least a ton of lifting capacity.  Don't ask how I know... the 38hp kubota will only lift 12-1500lbs and I'm already wishing I had a 50hp for the front loader capabilities.  It will, however, skid some pretty monster logs.

[John Mc]

I'd also recommend starting with a tractor.  As others have stated, it will handle a wide variety of tasks fairly well.  Not as good as a forklift for unloading trucks and moving supplies around the warehouse, but it does work.  Not as good as a skidder for logging, but with a logging winch it will do a decent job at that (I would recommend getting a belly pan, and other "forest modifications" if you are going to do a lot of that, especially if your terrain is rough and you'll be off-trail a lot).  As the business grows, you can see where the need is greatest, and buy specialized equipment for that.

You will want the quick-attach bucket on the front, so you can easily swap from bucket to forks to other implements. I would second the recommendation to look for something that will lift a ton on the loader.  My loader will only pick up 1100# to full height, and I often wish I had more. It seems a number of pallets which come in are right at my capacity, or over.

A backhoe can be useful, but if you've got a lot of your excavation work already done, you may find that you have more use for other implements (unless you're getting a pretty beefy farm tractor, get a subframe mounted backhoe, not the 3 point hitch kind).

A boxblade or rear blade can be very useful for maintaining gravel roads and parking lots (I prefer a boxblade, but what works best for you depends on your preferences and the conditions at your site).

As far as size, you need to think about your use. Compact tractors are better for maneuvering around in tighter spaces (in your warehouse, or in a yard full of supplies). Bigger tractors will lift more, so you can get that truck unloaded easier, but maneuverng in tight spaces is tougher.  Remember that most tractors need some sort of ballast on the rear end in order to pick up their full rated load on the loader. An implement on the 3 point hitch can serve as ballast, but that may give up more space than you can afford.  It's fairly simple to design a compact box of rocks or cement that will serve as a counterweight without taking up a lot of space.

[der7]

I am working in pretty tight space so a compact trailer seems to be a good option but I don't know about the horse power.  Aren't they 25-30 hp?  Also as far as needs around the home/work stead I mostly need to mow and maintain my roads for now.  And as far as the yard I need to be able to move pallets and logs around.

[beenthere]

so a compact trailer seems to be a good option

Assume that is a typo and it is "tractor".

HP can go up above 30 and still be a compact... but likely no specific rule to what a MFG wants to call their compact. Some are Utility tractors, and some Compact Utility.

Advice here would be to work with a local dealer for good support. Flexibility of attachments if going with one machine like a tractor. Ease of switching out attachments is key for me. I switch between forks and bucket often, and for snow I will drop the FEL and put a snow plow on the front, and then the forks on the 3 ph for moving pallets of firewood. Then the rear blade, carry-all, rototiller, rotary cutter, ballast box, logging tongs, etc. join the parade of attachments.

From what I gather, a 40 hp compact tractor with forks would be a good initial investment for covering most of your jobs. Can always trade in at a later time and branch out to a skid steer, and fork lift as the needs arise and the cash flow is there.

[tmarch]

I have a 50HP 4 wheel drive tractor and while it's nice I wouldn't recommend it to start with.  Look into a skid loader, much easier to maneuver and the attachments are available to do about all you need.  I have a Bobcat Toolcat also and use it way more than the tractor and my FEL for the tractor has the same connection so it can use the skid steer attachments.  Good luck with the new business!!!!!!!

[der7]

Bobcat Toolcat?  That actually looks really nice.  I was thinking about getting a utv.  Could you tell me more about how you are using this?  What the pros and cons are?

[tmarch]

It's be harder to tell you what it won't do around my place.  I run cattle on 2 sections of rough ground and use it for most of the stuff with that + for getting logs to the mill and lumber off.
Advantages over a skid steer are it's a LOT easier riding, a little more ground clearance and will go over 18 mph which is way too fast in my country.  Disadvantages, won't turn quite as short, only rated to lift 1500 lbs. but will do a little more than that.  With 4 wheel steering it will turn shorter than a pickup or tractor.  I have a bucket, pallet forks, angle broom for snow, post hole digger with 12" and 8" augers, grapple fork, and mower for it so lots of possibilities.  There's a lot more attachments made than I have.

[red]

Lots of Advil Aleve and Motrin
two years 364 days will go Fast

[John Mc]

That Toolcat looks to have an advantage over a compact tractor around the yard, if you can live with the 1500# lift limitation.  I suspect the tractor would out perform it on rough terrain or in logging operations, but I may be wrong... I've never seen a toolcat in person.

More info on the tractor end of things:
A compact tractor is more fully known as a Compact Utility Tractor (or CUT). You typically see them in 20 HP up to about 40 or 50 HP.  The frame sizes tend to vary with HP (as does lift ability and other specs). They typically come with a Category I three point hitch. The larger CUTs will typically be able to handle something like a 1 ton on the front end loader

The next size up is known as a "Utility Tractor". These are the smaller tractors you see around farms. They're normally not plowing a big field, they are doing various "utility" tasks (towing the hay wagon, maybe using the PTO to run a grain auger, etc.)  These generally have the larger Category II three point hitch, and lift capacity on the front end starts at 1 ton  Back when I was shopping, some utility tractors were actually cheaper than the larger CUTs (probably a function of the CUTs being so popular as "estate" tractors -- a friend in the tractor sales business told me that the margin was much higher on CUTs than on Utility tractors).  Depending on where you live, you can also find some great bargains on used utility tractors - in my area there are much better deals on used utility tractors than on CUTs.

[thenorthman]

I'd go with a mid size tractor, say 50-60 ponies, with a bucket front, toss a set of forks on there and you can move pallets, logs poles, pipes, etc... add a backhoe and you can dig holes, plus a standard three point on the back you can get loads of attachments to help maintain the rest of your property.  The list of three point attachments is mind blowing, from the standard farming stuff to forestry winches, fork lifts, wood splitters, chippers, the list is endless, and while these implements are expensive at first they are still cheaper then buying a whole different piece of machinery to do the same job.


The skid steers are ok for flat ground, but them little tires and marginal ground clearance make any off roading hazardous and difficult.

[Hans1]

My vote would be for a utility sized tractor aprox 50 horse with loader. Find one that the loader mount fits skid loader attachment. With forks and a grapple bucket should do all you need. Also mower, brushcutters and other3 point attachments will be very easy to find in your area. A lot of equipment auctions to buy different implements used. Good luck with your venture.

[John Mc]

You may want to lay out a mock-up on the ground of any eventual planned buildings and try maneuvering the tractor around in that space.  If the space available is too cramped for your tractor (or whatever) of choice, you've got some thinking to do:  live with the cramped feeling for a while until the business grows enough to justify adding a forklift or some other piece of equipment more suited to maneuvering in tight spaces, or rethink your "first piece" of equipment. (You could also consider expanding the space inside the buildings and in the yard, but that seems excessive and expensive just to get around a temporary equipment limitation).

[scsmith42]

I have all of the equipment that you are debating purchasing, plus more, so I can offer some educated advice.

My first tractor was a 39 hp 4wd Kubota.  It was fine for mowing and yard work, but too small for handling logs, etc.  You need a something that will pick up at least 2000 lbs and preferably 2,500.  To do so, you will need a tractor that is 60hp or greater.  Also, for running a front end loader a 4WD tractor is a very good idea, as the front axle's on 2WD tractors usually won't hold up to the abuse of heavy loads.

A skid steer is great for hauling and spreading dirt, and using forks, and log handling for small and mid sized logs.  There are a ton of attachments available for it.  It is lousy at grading and maintaining roads.  It would not be my first choice for an "only" piece of equipment unless I could find a used, track type machine, 80 hp or greater, with a 4 way blade with it.  It still would not be my first choice.

A farm type tractor is the most versatile, especially considering the extent of 3-point hitch implements available. 

The second piece of equipment that I would add would be a backhoe with forks.  This is really where you need to go in terms of handling logs and forking stacks of lumber.  A farm tractor is a good compromise in the near term though.

[ozarkgem]

Cedar county. How far from Jerico are you? I have 42 acres and a cabin not far from there. I would go with a tractor and loader as it is faster for skidding. I don't know if you know about Cooks tractor auction at Clinton. They have an auction every month and there are some really good deals on tractors. I have a ford industrial with a loader and it is a beast. Having said that I use my Bobcat the most around the mill but not much in the woods. I built a backhoe attachment for the Bobcat and it works far better than I expected.But if it is one piece, I would go with the tractor and loader.

[der7]

I appreciate all your advice.  Ozarkgem I'm off of J hwy about 10 miles from Stockton.  If you are in Jerico Springs I'm probably 25 minutes from you. Are you running a lumber yard in Jerico?  I would like to check it out.  I've seen a lumber furniture yard in the Amish Community that looks interesting.  I've been meaning to go visit them.  I am still in the planning stages of my buildings but have the roads and clearing done.  I have been debating extending my design plans so that logs could be dropped off and milled then have kilns and air dry areas connected in a way that I could easily access through garage doors that go inside or outside but on the same concrete pad with a forklift.  I have lots of ideas but I need to focus on finishing building and selling some of my properties first to earn the money to complete my plans.  In the meantime I'm building a wood shop for my own needs that will connect to the main warehouse.  I have heard something about auctions near by but have not checked any out yet.  Good to know it's in Clinton.  Thank you.

[John Mc]

scsmith42 made some very good points.  I'd just add that there are are 40 HP tractors that will lift 2000# on the loader, so you MIGHT not have to go all the way to 60+HP. (The lift capacity is not a function of HP, it's more a function of tractor weight/size and loader design. That said, larger tractors tend to be designed to pick up bigger loads.)  You may find the larger tractors he mentions are more suited to serious logging. (I use a 33 HP compact tractor for my work in the forest, but I'm doing personal/friends firewood, not logging for timber. I have more options to just process larger trees right in the woods, rather than load them on a trailer or skid them out. I'm also able to access most of my woods from on or near a prepared trails, using the logging winch and a snatch block.)

Also, a lot will depend on exactly what you need to do, but if you already have a capable tractor that you can use in the woods, and want something more suited to yard work or work inside a building, a dedicated forklift might be the thing, and just get a backhoe attachment for your tractor, if you need a backhoe.  They do make forklifts that are made for outside work not on a cement pad. (We had some 6 and 8,000# rated forklifts at work in Ohio that had pneumatic tires - which we foam filled, and ran over a bumpy dirt yard quite well. I don't kno if they make the same thing in a smaller fork truck.)  One advantage of the dedicated forklift is that they've got a very good turning radius, and a relatively short overall length - great for maneuvering inside a building or in between tight rows in the yard.

[Dave Shepard]

I am in the tractor first camp as well. When I started my landscaping business I bought a Kubota L-48. It was my do all machine. Loader work, backhoe, field mower, box blade etc. The Kubota B, L, and M series backhoes are industrial machines. They will lift much more than a farm or other compact tractor. Also the backhoes mount very solidly, you take the 3 point hitch off altogether. The John Deere 110 is the only other small industrial that I know of that fits the category of industrial backhoe with 3 point hitch option. There are a lot of L-48 and the smaller L-35 and L-39 tractors around at reasonable prices. The only real advantage to a skid loader that I see is the high lift capacity, but that comes at the cost of a much narrower scope of operations. Also, they will rototill every square inch of your life, unless you are on a good compacted yard. I also don't care for the poor visibility.

I don't know how much a UD-14A with clutch weighs, but my guess is at least 3,000, maybe even 3,500.



 

[John Mc]

I'd stay away from the 3 point hitch mounted backhoes altogether, unless you are using a big machine that is designed for it.  For the smaller tractors, if you want a backhoe, go with a subframe mounted model.  Woods makes a great one where the subframe stays on the tractor all the time, and you just pop the backhoe itself on and off as needed. I think they call it their "4 point hitch" subframe. (When I was doing it regularly, I could get it off in about 3 minutes, and back on in a bit over 5 minutes.  I'm a bit slower at it now, since I don't use it as often.)

My backhoe was bought used. It was a Wood model set up for 3 point hitch use.  When I got the subframe, it just involved unbolting a few parts from the backhoe, and bolting on the parts that mated to the subframe.  My tractor dealer did it, but it would have been easy enough to do myself.

[Dave Shepard]

The Kubota industrial backhoes use a full sub frame. You can see it in the pic above. It's the gray piece that goes between the tires. It ties the loader into it as well. Very rugged.

[thecfarm]

Some brands tie in the loader too. I have ½ flat stock that goes from the rear end to the front end. This is on a NH.