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What do you know ? Anybody have their place in it ? Just might put my place into it. Pretty lucrative. I'm thinking of my two options of leasing or outright selling. 350 million dollar project that other farmers are doing out my way that's looking like a go 

i know that the location density of utility scale solar farms in america more closely matches the central banking locations than it does the nations solar profile.  have a few guesses as to why that is.  

havent really heard of any individuals first hand details on the making of money at it with respect to all the little rooftops.. seems not paying for your own electric is the best that end pays.  smith and wesson was converting to solar farming and parking structures as i left, but they were using several inches of copper diameter at 15,800 volts so in their case it was probably about reducing a massive massive expense. 

my first employer passed on long, long ago.  he owned a parcel he leased to the town for a landfill from before my birth.  it was capped around the time i worked for him and is a solar lease now that hes gone but i no longer have any contacts to ask how the $$ work.  im not sure how many other leasing options there are for a grassy trash hill so he may have pidgeon holed himself on that one. but i also know he made a mint taking in garbage. 

If you sell, where do you go? Land prices have gone beyond what they can return, they may still go up, but for sure they are going to come back down.

Case in point my place sold for 3X what I paid, 5 years before I bought it. 

Do you have a main transmission line on or abutting your property ? Something like 115 Kv minimum.

I do. I've been approached by 3 solar companies. Had a contract with one of them for 2 years while they did thier research. They dropped me because the utility company wanted twice what they expected to pay for the interconnet. ( They planned on $10 million. ) Also cause my land was too wet which I don't really understand cause it's sloped and they didn't understand either.

Just my two cents but it is a joke and ruins good farm ground. Just like the wind mills take the goverment out of the picture and they would fall on there face !

Quote from: Autocar on September 04, 2021, 06:29:52 PM
Just my two cents but it is a joke and ruins good farm ground. Just like the wind mills take the goverment out of the picture and they would fall on there face !

How is it a joke ? What ruins the farm ground? If it's leased for four years and you don't want to keep participating in the program they come in and disassemble everything, get it out and leave the land the way it was. If you wonder why farmers are participating in the programs is when your talking four figure per acre and the figures keep going up for extended years of participation. You can't make that farming. It's real and it's happening and it's no joke.

What I find funny is people that are in some sub divisions that are all about alternative power and no drift spray watch from farmers are the same people that are putting signs up everywhere against it when it's being built next to them 😂

Quote from: sprucebunny on September 04, 2021, 05:30:10 PM
Do you have a main transmission line on or abutting your property ? Something like 115 Kv minimum.

I do. I've been approached by 3 solar companies. Had a contract with one of them for 2 years while they did thier research. They dropped me because the utility company wanted twice what they expected to pay for the interconnet. ( They planned on $10 million. ) Also cause my land was too wet which I don't really understand cause it's sloped and they didn't understand either.

This company is already in the works with the power company on all that. That is interesting  about the land being wet what the problems are. When I gave a tour in my Polaris General of my place to female representative that came out I pointed the farm out next door and she said there was some wet areas there. I will check into that. I do know they mow under the panels in other states from what I heard from guys that had contracts doing the mowing. 

The standard caveat is the devil is in the details. It quite odd that they offer you a 4 year "out" in the lease. I would suggest that you read the fine print with respect to the "out" as the developer is going to lose their shirt if someone uses that "out" clause. Unless your state has some incredible incentives, most solar farms are set up for 20 year financing. Panels last longer than that but accountants usually depreciate the assets down to zero in 20 years. The power inverters have about a 10 year life and so the economic models usually include one replacement and assume the second replacement is not needed as the field is economically worthless by that point. Another thing to remember is the developers knocking on the door are rarely in it for the long term, they can make a lot of promises but the standard business model is develop the site, get it built and then sell the project to a financial firm. The next owner is not going to remember promises so if its not in an enforceable contract the promises will go away.

The back end of these lease deals are usually a problem. The equipment and installation is set up for 20 year life so commercially in 20 years anyone wanting to continue the project will have to remove and dispose of the equipment before they install new. That means its cheaper to go elsewhere. This is one of the "devils", There currently is no recycling chain set up for solar panels. There could be but no one knows if its going to cost money to get rid of them or if it will be break even. The electronics are probably going to cost something to get rid of. The copper wire will probably be worth something but if they direct bury it, removal may cost more than its worth. There are several racking systems out there which are usually thin gauge galvanized metal. Its probably break even to get rid of. The actual posts in the ground can be spiral augers, or driven posts. There are lot of them and they will need to be removed, my guess is that is a cost to remove plus disposal. My guess is the reference to wet ground may be that wet ground needs a more expensive foundation system.

If the owner of the solar farm needs to deal with these end of life costs, they have to carry a conservative cost to remove the system. This decreases their profit so they are going to try to figure out a way of someone else taking that risk. In theory if they retain the risk, that commitment is only as good as their contract. Ideally that removal cost should be bonded by a third party bond as there is risk that one of the future owners could go bankrupt leaving the owner with potential cost to remove the equipment. Many developers try to donate the project to the landowner or some other entity at end of life, a landowner out to make a buck now may not care about what happens in 20 years but the potential liability will weigh down the future value of the land.

Another aspect is that even though solar panels should have a 20 year life (many early solar panels have far exceeded 20 year life), some have not. The panels used on farms are commodities bought on low bid from predominantly 3rd world suppliers. On occasion a supplier cut things to close and the panels start to deteriorate. In theory the developer may have some warranties but its unlikely anyone ever collects. A solar field owner with bad panels may elect to walk away. The other risk out there is fire, these fields are not fireproof or even fire resistant, if there is grass fire under the panels, its likely there will be lot of damage. Sure the owner of the field may have insurance but they may elect to keep the check and abandon the project. These fields are almost always owned in some convenient legal entity like a LLC that can be shut down without a lot of liability to the owner of the field.

Some states are concerned about loss of farm land, the solar industry is desperately trying to come up with agricultural uses or the land under the panels. I think Mass pays a higher incentive if the developer can prove that there is still some ag use.

Ultimately go in with a good lawyer familiar with long term leases preferably solar. No matter how nice and "green" the developers may be, someone is in it to maximize revenue and reduce risk. 

Actually it's 5 year minimum lease. No concern to me what panels or equipment they are using. I'm just leasing the land. This company has big projects completed and running in various other states. If this company wasn't the real deal a friend and who I have a hunting lease with that's putting all of his farm ground in probably 1,000 acres. He wouldn't be doing it. And he is a commercial attorney in another state. 

Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 07, 2021, 12:15:47 AM

Quote from: Autocar on September 04, 2021, 06:29:52 PM
Just my two cents but it is a joke and ruins good farm ground. Just like the wind mills take the goverment out of the picture and they would fall on there face !

How is it a joke ? What ruins the farm ground? If it's leased for four years and you don't want to keep participating in the program they come in and disassemble everything, get it out and leave the land the way it was. If you wonder why farmers are participating in the programs is when your talking four figure per acre and the figures keep going up for extended years of participation. You can't make that farming. It's real and it's happening and it's no joke.

We have a handful of these small projects scattered across Virginia.  Northern North Carolina has a bunch of them.  Virginia was in an extremely wet period during construction of a number of these facilities.  Erosion was a major problem.  One project in particular has been cited numerous times by DEQ.  Every time it rained, VDOT would send the front end loader down to remove a foot of sand from the state highway.  That bunch fought to stabilize ground for over a year.  
My concern comes around these "industrial scale" projects.  My community is looking at projects in the 3000 - 6000 acre range.  One company is proposing to develop a 21,000 acre site in order to situate 6,000 acres of panels.  This is to be located in the river hills adjacent to the Roanoke River.  I'm not a fan of grubbing stumps across 6000 acres to sit a bunch of Chinese mirrors.  You will fight erosion issues for decades.  A lot of these lands optioned for these industrial scale projects will bring $7,000 to $8,000 per acre plus timber value.  That is a significant value to the landowner.  Of course, these costs will be transferred to the consumer.  Rural America is "subsidizing" Urban America's desire for "green energy".  I believe the support of "green energy" will wane when we start seeing 6,000 acre clearcuts.  At this point in time, the system still requires 100% backup for any solar project.  Those power plants have to be maintained as the sun doesn't always shine.  This will remain true until industrial scale batteries become a reality.  
Back to your initial observation......if you are considering enrolling your property, I would look closely at that contract.  I would certainly have a provision where the developer had to post a bond or escrow account for future site clean-up.  At some point, the equipment is obsolete.  You don't want to be stuck holding the bag to clean up a hazardous waste dump when the contract holder files bankruptcy and walks away.  With the up-front costs to the developer, I find it hard to believe that they would provide an "out" 4 years into a project.  Be careful.  


Wudman

Solar panels are going to be just like windfarms. How many windfarms do you guys see that are just taking up valuable land and no longer producing anything. All be cause the cost to replace the blades is to high.

as much as I like to be environmentally friendly. Some of these green initiatives everyone is pushing are far from being "green".

When the sites become obsolete I guarantee they will be taking up thousands of acres not producing and will never be removed.

Yes indeed Wudman. That thought has crossed my mind on company bankruptcy or company being bought out by another company and so on. There is definitely many questions. The planning commission did pass the permit but there are probably many obstacles for them yet. I'm in no hurry and don't know if I really want to do it 🤷‍♂️

That reminds me I was talking to a guy up in Minnesota and he told me that a farmer he knew up there was getting like 20k a month for a big wind generator and he had 35 of them on his place

im skeptical.  

Thought I was the only one bothered by the rise of "solar farms".  I too support efforts towards better energy sources but I can't support these blighting projects.  Quite frankly ridiculous when you start to tally the collateral damage.  As Crus and others mention, it's the land use.

I support as much rooftop solar as there are appropriate roofs to hold....but solar farms are an abomination.

Not saying it couldn't pencil out for an individual, in the economic sense.  I speak only of the absurd environmental tradeoff.

If the gov't would give me money to put it on my roof I would gladly help out. But taking up as much space as these things are is insane. They are installing one as we speak in my tiny little town. Funny thing is Byrne Dairy has been trying to come into this town for years and keep getting shutdown. But the solar farm went right through. Doubt anyone in this town will see anything from it other than the sun glare.

BTW byrne dairy is a gas station / convenient store and ice cream Shoppe. Plus they have the best donuts :)

If and when they would come back to reclaim the ground from a solar farm, digging the foundations out will put so much clay soil around the ground it will not grow what it initially did. I agree with Crusarius if you want solar put it on your own roof and not destroy good farm ground with a million of them.

Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 07, 2021, 11:24:06 AM
That reminds me I was talking to a guy up in Minnesota and he told me that a farmer he knew up there was getting like 20k a month for a big wind generator and he had 35 of them on his place

I don't believe that.  My neighbor has wind turbines and he see about 3k per year for each one.  

I do see the benefit of solar as a renewals source of energy.  On an economic front, point of use solar makes a whole lot more sense than trying to augment the grid via huge farms.  Solar in my view works best at charging a battery bank as the energy can be used later on when there is no sunlight.  Solar farms just add to the grid and is subject to a variety of pricing schemes for peak and non peak power.  It's almost all grid supplied for peak power because the sun doesn't shine at night. So it's an expensive supply of power if you have no way of storing it, and that cost is always passed on to the consumer. 

Commercial power should come from a more stable source of power and variable loads (housing) can come from a home solar array where battery storage is on a scale where batteries can be charged and discharged efficiently.  Batteries would be a problem in anything commercial as the size and cooling would far outpace the benefit of free energy. 

The other problem with solar panels is the toxic elements used to make them.  I think there is a way to recycle the glass and metal bits, but the toxic parts still end up as hazardous waste.  If you have a panel break, then there's a chance for the toxins to leach onto the surrounding land. 

Nothing is free and nothing is perfect.  I think we're still finding out where it fits best into the overall energy portfolio.  

Quote from: snobdds on September 07, 2021, 04:02:57 PMSolar in my view works best at charging a battery bank as the energy can be used later on when there is no sunlight.  Solar farms just add to the grid and is subject to a variety of pricing schemes for peak and non peak power.  It's almost all grid supplied for peak power because the sun doesn't shine at night. So it's an expensive supply of power if you have no way of storing it, and that cost is always passed on to the consumer

Solar and Wind work well in combination with Hydro. When you have wind and sun, you reduce the hydro generation, and that's your storage for later / night time. Pumped hydro is also an option as that actually works as a battery.

Here in NZ wind power is more reliable, more wind than sun usually. The power companies have done their maths on the costs / returns / life expectancy and the numbers work from an economic perspective. Solar farms are popular on the smaller Pacific Islands, as otherwise all their power has to be Diesel, about the most expensive type there is. If solar cuts their diesel bill in 1/2, that's a win. Rarotonga has a large array beside the airport runway, land that would otherwise be waste ground.  

Here's some info on recycling.  Seems like there is alot that needs to be done. How to Properly Dispose of or Recycle Solar Panels and Equipment (https://www.santeecooper.com/news/2021/072021-How-to-Properly-Dispose-of-or-Recycle-Solar-Panels-and-Equipment.aspx)

The types of panels used in the US (and now most of the world) are silicon wafers doped with minimal amount of rarer elements. Silcon is basically melted beach sand. The collector strips (thin wires across the silicon wafers) are a mix of tin/silver/lead. The wafers are mounted on Tedlar (PVF) backsheets and encapulated with Ethyl Vinyl Acetate (EVA). Its bonded to tempered glass. Once the panel is assembled they re hard to break. In the vast majority of hits, the glass just fractures but stays in a complete sheet.

PV grade Silicon used to be expensive so there was an alternative wafer style called CIGs. One of the components of a CIGS panel is cadmium which was far more toxic than the current panels. Many people looking for a way of criticizing PV panels intentionally or unintentionally mix up the two. Unless someone is deliberately is trying to break up a panel into pieces its hard to do.

There have been cases of large arrays on roofs of buildings catching fire due to poor installation practices of the wiring (Tesla had a few) but roof top installations are quite close to the roof with the potential for debris build up. Ground mounted panels sit far higher off the ground than a roof mount. There is still a risk if a fire goes under the field. The panels rarely get broken from fire but depending on the vegetation build up under the arrays, the interconnecting wires between the panels can get burned off. The panels still work but can look "crispy" on the back side. They on occasion get resold and if the cables  are replaced they still can generate power. Assuming the field is insured these panels will get replaced unless its near its end of life. The owners of the solar farm are required to keep the fuel load down by mowing. In some case they are trying to use sheep to keep the vegetation down.

Currently used panels are in demand in the third world, cell phones are everywhere including places that do not have grid power. The biggest concern is that if the panels are cracked, eventually the encapsulant will fail allowing moisture into the panel, it will either cloud up or the collector strips will corrode and fail. In the third world, the aluminum frames would be snapped off and the rest of the panel would be broken up and burnt to melt off the tracing. The burning encpaslant and Tedlar would be toxic along with the ash pile.

Ultimately panel recycling is something coming in the future, if states act proactively to force them to be recycled a recycling industry will develop, if its cheaper to throw them in a dump then that is where they will go.
 

Here is a workable solution to the loss of farm land AND the cost of maintenance around the panels. Farm sheep.

The sheep don't bust things like cows, they don't chew everything like goats, and there is a good market for sheep meat and wool. The US imports about 50% of it's lamb / mutton from NZ / Aus. So there is existing local demand for the meat.

When it comes to solar farms, sheep are great groundskeepers | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/shepherds-can-cash-in-on-their-sheep-grazing-around-solar-panels/)

There is absolutely no domestic market for wool in the US. Most running sheep have gone to a "hair" variety to avoid loosing money shearing them. 

When that short term lease expires that operation will be abandoned. It's far cheaper to start anew than to clean up an old site. These people will get into a mess with lawsuits and the company gets out from under it with bankruptcy and carries on with the next scheme. The land will be devalued since no one wants to clean up the mess out of their own pockets. :D

And yes, on the wool. It costs a farmer more to sheer and clean wool than it is worth it for him/her. All the sheep farms here are for meat and tiny herds. Years ago the place was alive with sheep farms, 3 close to home. Briggs and Little Wool recycles wool, has for several years. My grandmother used to send them old worn out garments and blankets years ago. Their yarns are so cheap, they couldn't afford to pay a farmer a break even price. :D

Quote from: SwampDonkey on October 28, 2021, 04:10:48 AM
When that short term lease expires that operation will be abandoned. It's far cheaper to start anew than to clean up an old site. These people will get into a mess with lawsuits and the company gets out from under it with bankruptcy and carries on with the next scheme. The land will be devalued since no one wants to clean up the mess out of their own pockets. :D

And yes, on the wool. It costs a farmer more to sheer and clean wool than it is worth it for him/her. All the sheep farms here are for meat and tiny herds. Years ago the place was alive with sheep farms, 3 close to home. Briggs and Little Wool recycles wool, has for several years. My grandmother used to send them old worn out garments and blankets years ago. Their yarns are so cheap, they couldn't afford to pay a farmer a break even price. :D

That's interesting?? In my lease proposal they will disassemble everything and leave the land the way it was. And by the way this company has active solar farms in other states 

Quote from: Ianab on October 27, 2021, 04:37:26 AM
Here is a workable solution to the loss of farm land AND the cost of maintenance around the panels. Farm sheep.

The sheep don't bust things like cows, they don't chew everything like goats, and there is a good market for sheep meat and wool. The US imports about 50% of it's lamb / mutton from NZ / Aus. So there is existing local demand for the meat.

When it comes to solar farms, sheep are great groundskeepers | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/shepherds-can-cash-in-on-their-sheep-grazing-around-solar-panels/)

I love wool. The characteristics of it are pretty amazing 

Quote from: Walnut Beast on October 28, 2021, 06:30:15 AMThat’s interesting?? In my lease proposal they will disassemble everything and leave the land the way it was. And by the way this company has active solar farms in other states

I wouldn't count on it. Having other farms spread across the country doesn't improve your chances. The term is too short to begin with, for them to be profitable.

I don't doubt that  :D

A good sized hair sheep farm up the road just sold, to a cattle farmer who has been dabbling in heritage sheep at a flock of 50 scale. There is a fiber guild here of weavers, knitters, etc that has for years been trying to get a mini mill processing "plant" set up. I had a co-worker who would leave work and go shearing in the evenings, he had worked on larger ranches. There is enough work that 2 of them stay busy but all small operations, which would be larger than the size of grazing plot a solar array could occupy here. There are possible opportunities at the artisan level for wool... and this is all the same audience, solar, local artisan wool, marketing. I have never had any desire to work in commodities, stay small and keep it all.

A friends family has or at least had an old wool mill. Really neat and amazingly complex old equipment.  They made a tiny bit of artisan yarn but the vast majority of their production was tennis ball covering.

My understanding is the only guys making money in the lamb and mutton market are running flocks in with their cattle as you can run 1 sheep per cow and not reduce your cattle carrying capacity as the sheep eat what the cattle reject.

Only one commercial woollen spun mill here in New Brunswick. Worst spun wool is a higher premium and stronger yarn. It's funny, because the term worst, can also mean the weight of the yarn as well. You know these things as an experienced weaver. :D

edit to add: Ed Worst was an author of weaving books 100 years ago. :D


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/loom-space-july2020.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1615988610)


Wool rug with wool from mentioned mill above. ;D


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/scorgie-SW-rug-prog-3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635427565)


Another


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/4-block-bloom-leaf-SW-rug1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635427676)

Wisconsin grows (or did grow) lots of ginseng.  For that they shade the entire field with some type of shade structure.  They aim for 75%-80% shade.  I would think solar panels would be able to be sized and laid out in a way that allows ginseng to be grown underneath them successfully.

I don't know why cows couldn't be pastured under them as well as long as they are high enough and the posts are strong enough to resist the cows rubbing on them.

There are all sorts of vegetables that don't do well in the heat of summer so are planted in the spring and again in the fall.  Maybe they could be grown under the panels in the shade.

It could work great in desert locations, the panels shade the ground to keep water from evaporating and keep the soil a bit cooler  and they can be used to collect and direct rain water to specific spots.

If the panels are spaced a bit farther apart a person could maybe make hay under them.  It wouldn't be bumper crops but if the other option is to mow it and let it rot, getting something of value out of it may not be the worst thing.

In the early days of cell service, I was involved in land procurement for cell towers.  They were all leased sites.  

The devil is in the details.  While some leases were very lucrative others not so.  Who pays the taxes?  Some fair way to renegotiate the lease should also be worked out.  Access road and gates.  Lots of things to think about.  I would contact an attorney that has experience writing leases on farm ground before signing anything.  

There is a solar farm across the street from me...I am happy to have it there! Unlike the neighbor up the street, there are no dogs barking constantly, no loud music at night, no light pollution blotting out the sky. They bought the land outright which is unusual. They asked for a 25 year permit and the town made them put $250,000 in escrow for removal at the end. The land was fallow clay, no real crop loss. Town made them agree to return it to its original state when done, including removing the very nice driveway they installed. Plenty of locals wanted to hop on the band wagon but there needs to be a sizable 3 phase power line nearby and our street well out in the country had it to feed a now defunct fur farm. The project has been sold 2 or 3 times now but the town does a good job keeping each new owner held to the contract.

I heard an interview with a farmer the other day who was planting under a solar farm. For the mostly greens crops he was growing he felt it was a benefit.

yeah brassicas could probably be grown in mid summer under a solar field. 

Those are a big deal in Maine now. Big one in Farmington Maine, about 20 minutes from me, 400 acres. Another big one I think in Pittsfield. One in Oxford that I have not seen yet.
The ones I have seen, on one side, you can't walk under it.
Than 2 more small ones about 10 minutes from me.
As Brad says, they make good neighbors.  ;)

they make good revenue for the financiers too.  they just dont make much solar electricity in the glaciated north.

No solar farms in New Brunswick, but one being built for NB Power by The Smart Energy Company, down in Shediac. "The NOREASTER® is an all-inclusive solar energy solution 'designed specifically for harsh Canadian winters' in collaboration with the National Research Council." We'll see. Those carefully worded promises in small quotes sound familiar. :D  I remember some ocean based hydro power from a Florida company that was a scam not too long ago, 'designed specifically for Canadians'. ;D Opportunities NB funding it, not private money, but tax dollars 'meant to build global competitive companies in both product and service'. I can't breath. :D

A few businesses around that sell parts and equipment or do installs.

In the county 35 miles west of me, Clark Co., KY/Winchester, KY on I-64 is the county seat, a solar panel company is leasing solar farm lands past year or so. It's very controversial and thus many yard signs by those who oppose it (so-called ugliness) in what's a Bluegrass horse farm area. I think they tie up the land for 35 years on the leases.
Our electric co-op has their own solar farm next to I-64. They've offered 35 year investment deals to members-which will not include me. 

We will soon be like Germany where others (taxpayers & corporations) pay for landowners to get solarized farms? 

Quote from: Wudman on September 07, 2021, 09:23:47 AM

Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 07, 2021, 12:15:47 AM

Quote from: Autocar on September 04, 2021, 06:29:52 PM
Just my two cents but it is a joke and ruins good farm ground. Just like the wind mills take the goverment out of the picture and they would fall on there face !

How is it a joke ? What ruins the farm ground? If it's leased for four years and you don't want to keep participating in the program they come in and disassemble everything, get it out and leave the land the way it was. If you wonder why farmers are participating in the programs is when your talking four figure per acre and the figures keep going up for extended years of participation. You can't make that farming. It's real and it's happening and it's no joke.

We have a handful of these small projects scattered across Virginia.  Northern North Carolina has a bunch of them.  Virginia was in an extremely wet period during construction of a number of these facilities.  Erosion was a major problem.  One project in particular has been cited numerous times by DEQ.  Every time it rained, VDOT would send the front end loader down to remove a foot of sand from the state highway.  That bunch fought to stabilize ground for over a year.  
My concern comes around these "industrial scale" projects.  My community is looking at projects in the 3000 - 6000 acre range.  One company is proposing to develop a 21,000 acre site in order to situate 6,000 acres of panels.  This is to be located in the river hills adjacent to the Roanoke River.  I'm not a fan of grubbing stumps across 6000 acres to sit a bunch of Chinese mirrors.  You will fight erosion issues for decades.  A lot of these lands optioned for these industrial scale projects will bring $7,000 to $8,000 per acre plus timber value.  That is a significant value to the landowner.  Of course, these costs will be transferred to the consumer.  Rural America is "subsidizing" Urban America's desire for "green energy".  I believe the support of "green energy" will wane when we start seeing 6,000 acre clearcuts.  At this point in time, the system still requires 100% backup for any solar project.  Those power plants have to be maintained as the sun doesn't always shine.  This will remain true until industrial scale batteries become a reality.  
Back to your initial observation......if you are considering enrolling your property, I would look closely at that contract.  I would certainly have a provision where the developer had to post a bond or escrow account for future site clean-up.  At some point, the equipment is obsolete.  You don't want to be stuck holding the bag to clean up a hazardous waste dump when the contract holder files bankruptcy and walks away.  With the up-front costs to the developer, I find it hard to believe that they would provide an "out" 4 years into a project.  Be careful.  


Wudman

Hello Neighbor
We are a little south of you around the county courthouse. Been living here 14 years and before buying the property I spent a few years trying to make sure this area would NEVER be developed. Well you guessed it now they want to put a big solar farm around us on three sides. Of course they tried to get me to sign their lease or buy option a few years ago but I turned them down even though they made a good offer. But this is our home and homestead I have put the last 14 years of my life in to making this in to the place I want. Not to mention I like living 2 miles from anyone else. If they come back and offer enough (at least double the last offer) I will sell but then not at some unspecified time within 5 years like they originally offered. IF and that's a big if I were to sell then it will have to be to move up not sideways or back. There's no way I can or want to start from scratch again at this point in life.
 The only upside I can see if they do build all around us is that we would have 8 foot fencing on three sides someone else got to pay for. 
 My main worry about living here after they build is "what if" living in that kind of electrical production causes my kids or grand kids some kind of health issues. 

It's pretty much a go here and there is no problem with finding property owners I'm eight miles out in the country at the end of the project and they have several thousand acres signed up ready to go. Many acreage owners in subdivisions are not happy. It's easy to say no when you look from a subdivision but if you are a farmer and own the land around it and you can lease for 1,200 acre with a scale that goes up or the land purchase option for 12 k acre. As it stands when they have a buyer for power it will move forward. 

I was informed they have no intentions of taking or having anybody take  existing stands of trees out and they have many environmental guide lines the must follow 

With enough money in hand, anything will work. ;D Now what happens in 20 years when it starts to fail, they go bankrupt, and all the hardware strung across the land. You can't make a bankrupt company do a darn thing. Your taxes will be going up to pay for clean up. In fact they are anyway, for such tasks that are eventual. The company will be getting tax reductions, you can count on it. Same old shell game, over and over. ;)

We have a utility here that is a crown corporation (government). Recently, just before the pandemic, a line was completed into Maine. My taxes paid for it and are paying for the upkeep for someone else's benefit on the other end. Plus they have a lower $$rate. The government will push any darn thing whether it's profitable or even to your benefit at all. Just like the US Patent office, they'll issue a patent for anything, even a method of making toast.  :D

• Bread refreshing method (https://patents.justia.com/patent/6080436)
  Patent number: 6080436
  Abstract: A method of refreshening a bread product by heating the bread product to a temperature between 2500.degree. F. and 4500.degree. F. The bread products are maintained at this temperature range for a period of 3 to 90 seconds.
  Type: Grant
  Filed: June 14, 1999
  Date of Patent: June 27, 2000
  Inventor: Terrance F. Lenahan
  

Quote from: Walnut Beast on January 05, 2022, 01:17:05 AM
I was informed they have no intentions of taking or having anybody take  existing stands of trees out and they have many environmental guide lines the must follow

The one that's supposed to go around us would have to take out trees. This is timber country, pine to be exact and nearly every acre around here but the really small plots are in planted pines. Everyone says this ground won't grow anything but trees as it was farmed out years ago and reverted to tree farming. We are inside one of the small patches of hardwoods left in the area. Mostly it's low grounds in the area that still have hardwoods because they aren't allowed to timber near the waterways. Along the creeks and rivers pretty much are all hardwoods grown within the last 70 or so years after this practice started.

Quote from: Walnut Beast on January 05, 2022, 01:07:30 AM
It's pretty much a go here and there is no problem with finding property owners I'm eight miles out in the country at the end of the project and they have several thousand acres signed up ready to go. Many acreage owners in subdivisions are not happy. It's easy to say no when you look from a subdivision but if you are a farmer and own the land around it and you can lease for 1,200 acre with a scale that goes up or the land purchase option for 12 k acre. As it stands when they have a buyer for power it will move forward.

Congrats.  It's an amazing opportunity for farmers to make some profits.  All the plans I've seen keep well out of SMZs but here they will take out non native forests, pine plantations.

Quote from: biggkidd on January 05, 2022, 09:01:35 AM

Quote from: Walnut Beast on January 05, 2022, 01:17:05 AM
I was informed they have no intentions of taking or having anybody take  existing stands of trees out and they have many environmental guide lines the must follow

The one that's supposed to go around us would have to take out trees. This is timber country, pine to be exact and nearly every acre around here but the really small plots are in planted pines. Everyone says this ground won't grow anything but trees as it was farmed out years ago and reverted to tree farming. We are inside one of the small patches of hardwoods left in the area. Mostly it's low grounds in the area that still have hardwoods because they aren't allowed to timber near the waterways. Along the creeks and rivers pretty much are all hardwoods grown within the last 70 or so years after this practice started.

Yep poor soils, eroded for years, bought up on the cheap in the depression or shortly thereafter.  Planted in pine and recut every 25 years like corn.  They'll cut the pine and put the solar there and leave the hardwoods close to the streams as stream side management zones.  Will be a different look.  Southside hates them, I like them ( I don't much care for pine plantations or degraded grazing land).  

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 05, 2022, 04:45:03 AM
With enough money in hand, anything will work. ;D Now what happens in 20 years when it starts to fail, they go bankrupt, and all the hardware strung across the land. You can't make a bankrupt company do a darn thing. Your taxes will be going up to pay for clean up. In fact they are anyway, for such tasks that are eventual. The company will be getting tax reductions, you can count on it. Same old shell game, over and over. ;)

We have a utility here that is a crown corporation (government). Recently, just before the pandemic, a line was completed into Maine. My taxes paid for it and are paying for the upkeep for someone else's benefit on the other end. Plus they have a lower $$rate. The government will push any darn thing whether it's profitable or even to your benefit at all. Just like the US Patent office, they'll issue a patent for anything, even a method of making toast.  :D

• Bread refreshing method (https://patents.justia.com/patent/6080436)
  Patent number: 6080436
  Abstract: A method of refreshening a bread product by heating the bread product to a temperature between 2500.degree. F. and 4500.degree. F. The bread products are maintained at this temperature range for a period of 3 to 90 seconds.
  Type: Grant
  Filed: June 14, 1999
  Date of Patent: June 27, 2000
  Inventor: Terrance F. Lenahan
  

Not speaking for Walnut Beast but he's had his lawyers on this.  He's got the lease or sale option and he does not appear to be a fool.  If sale he'll make quite a bit more than the developers pay.  If lease they are bonded on the cleanup.  It's not as big a cleanup deal as you are making it out to be.  Also, the new panels are likely to be making power for 40 years if someone doesn't come and replace them all anyway as efficiencies get almost 1% better a year.  

Quote from: biggkidd on January 05, 2022, 12:44:32 AM

Quote from: Wudman on September 07, 2021, 09:23:47 AM

Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 07, 2021, 12:15:47 AM

Quote from: Autocar on September 04, 2021, 06:29:52 PM
Just my two cents but it is a joke and ruins good farm ground. Just like the wind mills take the goverment out of the picture and they would fall on there face !

How is it a joke ? What ruins the farm ground? If it's leased for four years and you don't want to keep participating in the program they come in and disassemble everything, get it out and leave the land the way it was. If you wonder why farmers are participating in the programs is when your talking four figure per acre and the figures keep going up for extended years of participation. You can't make that farming. It's real and it's happening and it's no joke.

We have a handful of these small projects scattered across Virginia.  Northern North Carolina has a bunch of them.  Virginia was in an extremely wet period during construction of a number of these facilities.  Erosion was a major problem.  One project in particular has been cited numerous times by DEQ.  Every time it rained, VDOT would send the front end loader down to remove a foot of sand from the state highway.  That bunch fought to stabilize ground for over a year.  
My concern comes around these "industrial scale" projects.  My community is looking at projects in the 3000 - 6000 acre range.  One company is proposing to develop a 21,000 acre site in order to situate 6,000 acres of panels.  This is to be located in the river hills adjacent to the Roanoke River.  I'm not a fan of grubbing stumps across 6000 acres to sit a bunch of Chinese mirrors.  You will fight erosion issues for decades.  A lot of these lands optioned for these industrial scale projects will bring $7,000 to $8,000 per acre plus timber value.  That is a significant value to the landowner.  Of course, these costs will be transferred to the consumer.  Rural America is "subsidizing" Urban America's desire for "green energy".  I believe the support of "green energy" will wane when we start seeing 6,000 acre clearcuts.  At this point in time, the system still requires 100% backup for any solar project.  Those power plants have to be maintained as the sun doesn't always shine.  This will remain true until industrial scale batteries become a reality.  
Back to your initial observation......if you are considering enrolling your property, I would look closely at that contract.  I would certainly have a provision where the developer had to post a bond or escrow account for future site clean-up.  At some point, the equipment is obsolete.  You don't want to be stuck holding the bag to clean up a hazardous waste dump when the contract holder files bankruptcy and walks away.  With the up-front costs to the developer, I find it hard to believe that they would provide an "out" 4 years into a project.  Be careful.  


Wudman

Hello Neighbor
We are a little south of you around the county courthouse. Been living here 14 years and before buying the property I spent a few years trying to make sure this area would NEVER be developed. Well you guessed it now they want to put a big solar farm around us on three sides. Of course they tried to get me to sign their lease or buy option a few years ago but I turned them down even though they made a good offer. But this is our home and homestead I have put the last 14 years of my life in to making this in to the place I want. Not to mention I like living 2 miles from anyone else. If they come back and offer enough (at least double the last offer) I will sell but then not at some unspecified time within 5 years like they originally offered. IF and that's a big if I were to sell then it will have to be to move up not sideways or back. There's no way I can or want to start from scratch again at this point in life.
The only upside I can see if they do build all around us is that we would have 8 foot fencing on three sides someone else got to pay for.
My main worry about living here after they build is "what if" living in that kind of electrical production causes my kids or grand kids some kind of health issues.

Long distance neighbor.  My advice...I'd sell.  Your property value is going to be greatly impacted if surrounded by a solar farm.  Not sure why you thought it would not be developed though?  If it was in pine plantations they are often turned into developments.  In any case, sorry that you are facing this.  
First, are you sure they are building?  Dominion received applications for 3x more production than the state uses in total.  Just way way more than can be used or transmitted.   So, do you know if this farm has moved past the planning phase and has a client?  There are dozens of data centers waiting to get turned on in Prince William and Loudoun County, waiting on juice.  So the demand could well be there but maybe it wont' get built.  
Did they buy land already?   That's one sign they are serious.
Before they start the build process I'd explore the sale again but like you say, see if they can bump it up.  If removing your property makes the build easier that's worth a bit more.  They have more costs than just a fence.  They will have to buffer your property by some setback amount (know what that is-how much land do they lose in setbacks).  They have an odd panel arrangement that can be more expensive to cable.  Etc.  I'd stress the benefits of not having the odd parcel suck in the farm.

Why do you think his property will be negatively impacted by the solar farm and he should sell?  In reply #48 you said that you liked solar farms.  

Oh I understand - you like them when they impact someone else.  Got it.   8)

That assumes that the bond actually covers the total cost and they aren't bankrupt to go after more. What if it covers 15% in future dollars of less value? The bond is purchased by the company now, to cover something that might occur say 20 years from now. We aren't talking replacement, we're talking cleanup. Cheaper panels does not translate to cheaper clean up. Look at asbestos, it will cost $1M minimum to clean up a school fleeced with the stuff, not $20,000. Asbestos was cheap, the cleanup is not. People get fleeced over and over and call it all good.  :D Bankruptcies have been convenient in the past of elimination of pensions, wood purchases, paying contractors. What's going to save you from that? :D 

I am seeing a lot of what if's about solar farms and limited facts about the negatives, that have actually happened yet.  That said i am currently negotiating an easement contract with a solar energy company through my property and am about 2.5 -3 miles from the proposed panel farm. I have heard all of the negative "what if, guarantee this will happen, why not put it here or there but not there, etc." with no factual back up.  On the forum I just read about factual positive info about what can be done around and under a solar farm such as animal grazing, certain types of crops, and much less demand on water for farm irrigation for the plot.  
I think all we have to do is research other countries such as NZ that have been using solar for quite a few years, not a lot of negatives.
I did find out during meeting with the solar rep that they need some place to tie into the power grid that can handle the output, such as an existing substation that is close enough to be economically feasible, so my place happens to be on that route, the option to purchase the permanent 150' wide easement is for up to 3 years with a generous annual payment and if the easement is purchased the payment is more than I paid for the place 12 years ago and I still have the land for grazing, soil is very rocky, With the climate warming/drying up here in the west water for irrigation and hydro power is becoming an issue,
Water power is just like solar and wind in that how to store the excess, think winter runoff, I know 'dams" yet there those folks who are negative on the dams and want then gone and permitting a new one next to impossible.
Some one mentioned the government subsidizing solar, let's think back to the 1920's and 30's and the electrification of rural America (farms) that was a government program that had great results. I can get state grants (tax payer) for cutting Juniper off my ground, farmers get government pay (tax payer) for not farming ground, so why not put solar farms on it.

Quote from: nativewolf on January 09, 2022, 09:25:34 PM

Quote from: biggkidd on January 05, 2022, 12:44:32 AM

Quote from: Wudman on September 07, 2021, 09:23:47 AM

Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 07, 2021, 12:15:47 AM

Quote from: Autocar on September 04, 2021, 06:29:52 PM
Just my two cents but it is a joke and ruins good farm ground. Just like the wind mills take the goverment out of the picture and they would fall on there face !

How is it a joke ? What ruins the farm ground? If it's leased for four years and you don't want to keep participating in the program they come in and disassemble everything, get it out and leave the land the way it was. If you wonder why farmers are participating in the programs is when your talking four figure per acre and the figures keep going up for extended years of participation. You can't make that farming. It's real and it's happening and it's no joke.

We have a handful of these small projects scattered across Virginia.  Northern North Carolina has a bunch of them.  Virginia was in an extremely wet period during construction of a number of these facilities.  Erosion was a major problem.  One project in particular has been cited numerous times by DEQ.  Every time it rained, VDOT would send the front end loader down to remove a foot of sand from the state highway.  That bunch fought to stabilize ground for over a year.  
My concern comes around these "industrial scale" projects.  My community is looking at projects in the 3000 - 6000 acre range.  One company is proposing to develop a 21,000 acre site in order to situate 6,000 acres of panels.  This is to be located in the river hills adjacent to the Roanoke River.  I'm not a fan of grubbing stumps across 6000 acres to sit a bunch of Chinese mirrors.  You will fight erosion issues for decades.  A lot of these lands optioned for these industrial scale projects will bring $7,000 to $8,000 per acre plus timber value.  That is a significant value to the landowner.  Of course, these costs will be transferred to the consumer.  Rural America is "subsidizing" Urban America's desire for "green energy".  I believe the support of "green energy" will wane when we start seeing 6,000 acre clearcuts.  At this point in time, the system still requires 100% backup for any solar project.  Those power plants have to be maintained as the sun doesn't always shine.  This will remain true until industrial scale batteries become a reality.  
Back to your initial observation......if you are considering enrolling your property, I would look closely at that contract.  I would certainly have a provision where the developer had to post a bond or escrow account for future site clean-up.  At some point, the equipment is obsolete.  You don't want to be stuck holding the bag to clean up a hazardous waste dump when the contract holder files bankruptcy and walks away.  With the up-front costs to the developer, I find it hard to believe that they would provide an "out" 4 years into a project.  Be careful.  


Wudman

Hello Neighbor
We are a little south of you around the county courthouse. Been living here 14 years and before buying the property I spent a few years trying to make sure this area would NEVER be developed. Well you guessed it now they want to put a big solar farm around us on three sides. Of course they tried to get me to sign their lease or buy option a few years ago but I turned them down even though they made a good offer. But this is our home and homestead I have put the last 14 years of my life in to making this in to the place I want. Not to mention I like living 2 miles from anyone else. If they come back and offer enough (at least double the last offer) I will sell but then not at some unspecified time within 5 years like they originally offered. IF and that's a big if I were to sell then it will have to be to move up not sideways or back. There's no way I can or want to start from scratch again at this point in life.
The only upside I can see if they do build all around us is that we would have 8 foot fencing on three sides someone else got to pay for.
My main worry about living here after they build is "what if" living in that kind of electrical production causes my kids or grand kids some kind of health issues.

Long distance neighbor.  My advice...I'd sell.  Your property value is going to be greatly impacted if surrounded by a solar farm.  Not sure why you thought it would not be developed though?  If it was in pine plantations they are often turned into developments.  In any case, sorry that you are facing this.  
First, are you sure they are building?  Dominion received applications for 3x more production than the state uses in total.  Just way way more than can be used or transmitted.   So, do you know if this farm has moved past the planning phase and has a client?  There are dozens of data centers waiting to get turned on in Prince William and Loudoun County, waiting on juice.  So the demand could well be there but maybe it wont' get built.  
Did they buy land already?   That's one sign they are serious.
Before they start the build process I'd explore the sale again but like you say, see if they can bump it up.  If removing your property makes the build easier that's worth a bit more.  They have more costs than just a fence.  They will have to buffer your property by some setback amount (know what that is-how much land do they lose in setbacks).  They have an odd panel arrangement that can be more expensive to cable.  Etc.  I'd stress the benefits of not having the odd parcel suck in the farm.

All I know for a fact at this time is they have paid out a pile of money for those 5 year purchase options. 
As to not thinking someone would develop the land it's a low income area with very little if any growth in the last 25 years. I was looking for a place that would stay rural for my and my children's lifetimes and this was about as close as you can come until solar farms became a thing. 
As to the worked out farm land soil I have revitalized a couple acres so far and have plans to fix many more. I've added truckloads of composted wood chips to the soil and been running animals on it and it is coming alive!

good on you biggkidd.  we are kindred spirits in those regards. 

I can completely sympathize with someone who has poured their blood, sweat, and years into a patch of dirt. It becomes very personal and the idea of watching someone else take or destroy it will come with a heavy price. 

It's not about the dollars. 

The reality is unless the land around a person's property is permanently protected its unfair to expect the adjoining landowner to voluntarily reduce their potential income or use of their land just because the neighbor does not like it. The choices are pay the neighbor for a permanent easement (highly unlikely) play the zoning game (not reliable and subject to change) or search for a location that has land protected by some sort of long term easement. My wood lot is effectively boxed in by an undevelopable lot on one side (250 feet by 4000 foot lot with a significant slope). A town forest protected by a state administered development easement on the rear and the other side abuts a large family property that also has a steep slope that is usually accessed via my lot due to the steep slope. They have a limited right for timber access but no rights for any other developmental access. Its highly likely that if that family lot were split up, it would go into the town forest.
I have seen a few houses partially surrounded by solar farms down in Mass. IMHO, its definitely not a great curb appeal. The panels also appreciably raise the local temps during hot weather. They are at best 18% efficient so the rest of the sunlight hitting them are converted to heat which is radiated into the air. That heat is enough to raise the local temps a bit especially up wind of the farm.

Quote from: Southside on January 10, 2022, 04:42:45 PM
I can completely sympathize with someone who has poured their blood, sweat, and years into a patch of dirt. It becomes very personal and the idea of watching someone else take or destroy it will come with a heavy price.

It's not about the dollars.

EXACTLY my point as to why I don't want to sell. But as others have stated I am worried about it changing things around us. Temperature and water are the big two behind it causing any health issues for my kids / grandkids. It's to late for me to worry about my own health I've been on bonus time since 2005 when I was told to get my affairs in order by the docs.

We have one of the biggest new start solar farms in Tennessee about 15 mile from us, 1,700 acres.  It's kind of a local amusing joke, it seems to be pretty badly managed, and a cross between "green" aspirations and "real life" stupidity.  

For example, last year there were rumors that things were way behind schedule, as the workers couldn't get to the panels to install and repair them.  So everything was at idle.  Apparently, in order to be "green" the rules say they can't use herbicides (save the planet) so they have to use manual mowers and weed eaters.  The problem was, the mowing equipment was throwing rocks and stones and breaking the panels from all the thousands of truckloads it takes to cover 1,700 acres with rock pads and gravel roads, and so they stopped mowing and destroying their panels, and since they couldn't use herbicides, all the weeds and grew up to the point where the people couldn't get to the arrays to fix the broken ones and install the new ones. Whoops.....  So then they tried to hire new mowing crews, ones that wouldn't "throw rocks" and they couldn't get any of them to bid on the job or the ones they hired wouldn't show up.  So it turned into a giant hay field this summer. :D

Now, they have decided to take out all rocks and gravel roads they put in to get rid of all the potential shrapnel, so are adding to the planet's carbon footprint by pushing all that into huge piles, and are giving it away to anyone with a dump truck.  Mountains of it.

Anyway, there may be more to this story I don't know about, but this is what everybody local thinks is going on.  

 

Quote from: peakbagger on January 10, 2022, 05:38:25 PMThe reality is unless the land around a person's property is permanently protected its unfair to expect the adjoining landowner to voluntarily reduce their potential income or use of their land just because the neighbor does not like it

I agree with you to a point.  That being farm / rural land, unless it's edged up against town or something, has generally remained in a similar use state.  Yes, some gets broken up, some gets developed, etc, but not the massive, industrial scale 8,000 acres at a time.  That's a pretty significant change and it really does not benefit the locals, the power is really for the cities, so that makes it a harder pill to swallow.  Now being one who very much believes in landowners rights I don't have a solution, other than perhaps there should be some sort of impacted purchase option that is multitudes over value so that the selling landowner is truly compensated given it's not just a single neighbor developing something rather it's David and Goliath.  

It's easy to arm chair no no but what if somebody came by your 100 acre place and offered 15k acre 😂 

The problem is where do you go and what does it cost to replace it?  I have many, many, unpaid hours in my dirt, and a genuine admiration of those natural inhabitants who are comforted as a side benefit of my work.  Someone wants to take it by force then those hours are going to be paid for with compound interest, a late fee, and a penalty is the way I look at it.  $15K would not buy my place today.  

My previous question was to anyone not you directly Southside. Very nicely said! More people need to think like that. It's not all about the money! 

Quote from: Southside on January 10, 2022, 09:13:31 PM
The problem is where do you go and what does it cost to replace it?  I have many, many, unpaid hours in my dirt, and a genuine admiration of those natural inhabitants who are comforted as a side benefit of my work.  Someone wants to take it by force then those hours are going to be paid for with compound interest, a late fee, and a penalty is the way I look at it.  $15K would not buy my place today.  

When they first approached me with their plan I did go and search to see what it would cost to find similar circumstances again. What I found was to get 30-50 acres with a house and buildings more than a mile from neighbors yet less than an hour and a half from a major city would run about a cool half million. I just can't start over doing it all from scratch again. Here I started with nothing but 36 acres of scrub timberland blood and sweat.

Quote from: Walnut Beast on January 10, 2022, 09:06:25 PM
It’s easy to arm chair no no but what if somebody came by your 100 acre place and offered 15k acre  

Take the money and run. :D :D All kidding aside, don't be surprised what you discover down the road searching for the next patch of land. Somehow, we have become a society where your equipment you want to sell me to cut my trees for your mill is worth more than all my trees, 70 acres of land and new modern house all put together. :D :D That's what you're going to come up against. In one hand and out the other, plus some more. ;)

PS: At my age, I'd gladly take that kind of money for my woodland, but no less. ;D Around these parts, if private woodlots are bought up by mills, it's just the same as being the government. No family will ever have the opportunity to ever buy that land, it's tied up for perpetuity. Government has expropriated mill ground in the past (Nashwaak Pulp and Paper).

The solar "farms" I've seen by driving by there is no trespassing by humans or animals and certainly no space to grow something under the panels. Panels and gravel access roads is it, all with a high razor wire fence surrounding the area. My county will get none of them as what few suitable spots are the rare pasture spaces among steep terrain. 
I've read that over half the world's solar panels now come from China and growing. Beware placing your energy needs with the enemy? 
If (or when) war comes the senario changes from passive energy to immense needs. 
Our energy grid is said to be hurting no matter what feeds it. 
The mill owners here who buy private forest, cut them then allow them to rest and once they've become attractive to land seeker for hunting and such they re-sell them. The larger tracts owned by out of state steel & coal companies (in KY) do stay in their hands, a few have allowed ATV trails or bankrupted and allowed taxpayers to restore the mine areas. Those lands have been owned or mineral leased since before WWII. Many serious books about that topic, such as Night comes to the Cumberlands, etc..
After the "Arab oil crisis" many companies did come into my area to lease shale oil properties but that died really fast as not economical. A few dug trenches , I guess to test the content? 

Sounds like part of the game plan of solar farms is to buy land to derive income from while the land values appreciate to cash in on that down the road. My father bought a farm in 1953 for $ 15,000 and sold it in 1966 for $ 45,000. He later admitted that he didn't really make any money producing milk; he made it on the land. Walmart has bought lots of  prime land in good locations with multiple acres for their superstores. If, for whatever reason, they liquidated, they would have a mega fortune from the sale of that land.

Box stores in todays world often must agree to what happens to their land/spot if they move which happens fairly often. Many are not higher ed schools or flea markets. A few are currently eyesores in some towns where retail is tough to happen. 
Solar people lease, not buy land in my nearby area. 
As for worn out, left over dairy farms, all are at least two counties above me, and the Amish buy those farms up the past 25 years. 

A Walmart was built in northern New Brunswick on the edge of the city of Bathurst back a few years ago, then closed up shop. But I see that it reopened later. I've actually been there in the middle of the day on a work day in 2006 and it was closed and not a vehicle around it.

Someone took a photo, here:
Abandoned Walmart in Bathurst, NB (https://www.alamy.com/abandoned-wal-mart-in-bathurst-new-brunswick-canada-taken-07222006-by-userkirjtc2-31-july-2006-original-upload-date-transferred-from-enpedia-to-commons-by-liftarn-using-commonshelper-kirjtc2-at-english-pedia-image256895599.html)

In upstate central PA they offered to put solar panels on 20+ acres of level ground - pretty much down in the " hollow " as my house is up on the south side of a small hill ( here in PA there aren t many that would call our hills big ) .

I 'd lose " logging/timber " exemption on RE Tax but company offered to cover that plus ~ 7500 / yr - maybe .

Not sure I want in - there's a bunch of wind mills on the ridge across the hollow - most would call them an eye sore - and I 'm thinking I 'd soon grow tired of neighbors using them for target practice ! ( they d be close to the road ) .

Have yet to have a sit down with them - if I 'd even want to go that far - I 'm thinking there's not enough interest in the area to make it worth their while .

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 11, 2022, 03:07:18 PM
A Walmart was built in northern New Brunswick on the edge of the city of Bathurst back a few years ago, then closed up shop. But I see that it reopened later. I've actually been there in the middle of the day on a work day in 2006 and it was closed and not a vehicle around it.

Someone took a photo, here:
Abandoned Walmart in Bathurst, NB (https://www.alamy.com/abandoned-wal-mart-in-bathurst-new-brunswick-canada-taken-07222006-by-userkirjtc2-31-july-2006-original-upload-date-transferred-from-enpedia-to-commons-by-liftarn-using-commonshelper-kirjtc2-at-english-pedia-image256895599.html)

We "camp" in Walmarts and have been in many, many all over the USA, except FL which often doesn't allow such things. We keep and old atlas that has the list of Walmarts, street addresses and if they allow camping. At times we have driven to an empty store lot as they'll move from locations. Very common and reason localities have laws to keep down eyesore malls many places here now.
Honestly, I fail to grasp why a solar farm is logical in KY where the number of sunshine days is far lower than many other places? It is energy that travels on the grid wires after all. 

Lots of folks pull into the Woodstock Walmart in RV's in the summer time for over night.

Quote from: kantuckid on January 12, 2022, 09:02:28 AM

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 11, 2022, 03:07:18 PM
A Walmart was built in northern New Brunswick on the edge of the city of Bathurst back a few years ago, then closed up shop. But I see that it reopened later. I've actually been there in the middle of the day on a work day in 2006 and it was closed and not a vehicle around it.

Someone took a photo, here:
Abandoned Walmart in Bathurst, NB (https://www.alamy.com/abandoned-wal-mart-in-bathurst-new-brunswick-canada-taken-07222006-by-userkirjtc2-31-july-2006-original-upload-date-transferred-from-enpedia-to-commons-by-liftarn-using-commonshelper-kirjtc2-at-english-pedia-image256895599.html)

We "camp" in Walmarts and have been in many, many all over the USA, except FL which often doesn't allow such things. We keep and old atlas that has the list of Walmarts, street addresses and if they allow camping. At times we have driven to an empty store lot as they'll move from locations. Very common and reason localities have laws to keep down eyesore malls many places here now.
Honestly, I fail to grasp why a solar farm is logical in KY where the number of sunshine days is far lower than many other places? It is energy that travels on the grid wires after all.

Electrons move but you have losses and grid congestion, at some point it makes more sense to build it locally.
So the case with solar at industrial scale is that it is cheap.   Just mind boggling cheap.  Doesn't matter how much cloudiness, solar panels still produce just at lower levels of power.   So you build 3-4x what you need and it's still cheaper or you produce what you can and on the cloudy days you have purchase agreements from somewhere else and you accept the grid loss or congestion fees.  It's still cheap.  Getting cheaper too, the 3-4% decrease in cost/watt has been going on for decades and it has a long long way to run.  The lab efficiencies are still 10 years from production and so we have visibility into just long term reductions in $/watt.  Batteries...that's the hold up.  2 huge Ford battery plants going to go up in KY, probably broke ground already.  2 in GA were started a couple of years ago.  I don't like the Ford style battery for what it is worth.

I have a little solar setup at my off-grid cabin. Lights when I ever need them. Can brew a pot of coffee or microwave a snack..when the battery is charged and can even run a small AC or fridge during bright summer sun.

The limitation is the battery(s). I like my coffee before the sun comes up and like a hot shower and cool beverage after it sets. My house is on an exposed hilltop. I can see to the horizon in the SW and NW. Only way to describe the afternoon wind is "relentless". Lifespan of an expensive made in the USA sewn flag can be hours if flown on a windy day. But oddly at dusk it subsides as if turned off with a switch. What does this have to do with price of bat guano in China?

The new EVs are going to be plugged in at people's homes in the evening when the AC is set on high to mitigate the effects from burning coal in China to supply the increased electric demand caused by EVS while the microwave is re-heating the evening meal delivered by Door Dash(talk about waste).

Storage. Storage. Storage. It doesn't exist. They may one day solve storage issues, but the cars are starting to plug in today. How are massive solar fields(even the mythical almost free ones?) going to help meet demand?

Solution: Become Nocturnal and sleep during the day while the Tesla charges!

Here in the NW we have mostly hydro power (Columbia, Snake River) \ and a lot of windmills along the Columbia and commercial solar on a much smaller scale but the windmills and solar need to be able to tie into the existing power grid that has the capacity to receive and distribute (sell) their generated power.
Storage of power is an issue but think about the hydro (dams) as storage with the hydro power generating (releasing water) when the wind and/or solar are not producing sufficient amounts the same could be said for coal and gas generating plants.

If solar can really power us then I'm all for it.  But I just can't stand these solar farms, and can't believe they really make sense, keeping in mind I'm definitely factoring in land use issues.  Great big one going in in this state's Central Sands region.  Hundreds of thousands of &#&#@ pine stumps in the way.  What a win for the environment...

It's nigh on impossible to fully discuss solar farms w/o the politics so I'm leaving it alone. Every source of energy has it's +/- factors. They always go beyond the "look" of the generation. 
Ford's new battery plant was in our news this week as the site touch's both a Co-Op Nolan Co. electric and KY Utilities energy . KU won that battle and pays the Co-Op money, land, etc.. Both are small players overall in electric utilities business. 

I haven't been able to confirm it yet but I was told last week that Red Brick Solar has canceled their plans to build the solar field around us. The same person also told me they will likely come back and propose a smaller project in this location. Wish I could get some confirmation either way. 

There is a solar farm rush on right now in many areas and the utilities cannot handle the engineering required to interconnect the farms. The grid was just not built for distributed generation. I think PJM just put a two year hold on any new solar interconnections. Many states are paying higher subsidies for combined solar and battery plants. Its a moving target.    

Lot's of talk on what people do and don't know. I know I've got a meeting next week with a Solar Farm Development manager of Ranger Power doing a big project that's been in the works on what my options are if I decide to move forward on my farm. It's real and it's being done in other states.

Ranger Power.   Consumers Energy today announced agreements to add 300 megawatts of clean energy – enough to power about 150,000 homes — from two Michigan solar projects being developed in Genesee and Hillsdale counties.

The science behind solar panels is pretty well established, it's the economics and what's actually in the contract that now matters. I assume it's a "We want to lease a field for the next 20 years, for $X"?

Then you decide if that's actually a good deal for you? What income could the land produce otherwise? Who cleans up the junk at the end of the 20 years?

I'm in Rarotonga right now, and solar is big here, because electricity is expensive (diesel generators). So any large commercial building will have solar panels + solar water heating on most houses.  But that's a completely different scenario to mainstream generation in the States. 

In my meeting tomorrow I will ask the question of all the claims by everyone about all the junk panels being such a problem 

My friend with the 1200 acre solar farm made them put up a bond for complete clean up and disposal at the end of the lease.  It is a problem, the industry is aware of it, and they will cough up the money if you push them.  

Good call Southside! 

https://www.suretybondprofessionals.com/solar-decommissioning-bonds/ (https://www.suretybondprofessionals.com/solar-decommissioning-bonds/)

I heard a piece on the radio yesterday about trying to put together something to that effect statewide. Apparently we only have a dozen counties or so that have anything addressing that.

IMO not having a funded third party decommissioning plan (bond being one of the options) in place should be given in any solar contract. Projects like this get bought and sold like commodities once they are built. Companies go bankrupt and guarantees do not mean anything in bankruptcy court. Decommission is risk and financial groups hate risk. If they can hand it off to someone else like the landowner they will. Once a bond, is bought its funded as long as the selling company exists and it goes with the property. BTW its got to be by a legit third party, coal companies were allowed to self insure clean up of strips mines and mountain top removals projects and in many cases there is not dime available to do the cleanup.       

What peakbagger said about clean up of solar farms is true of many other land uses as well.

About 20 years ago our area had a major frack sand boom they promised new roads, to pay for schools and good jobs for 25 years on the short end.  The problem is many of those mines have only been running 3 or 5 of those 20 years and have been sold and resold to various foreign mining companies.  By only operating for a few of those years the escrow money that was supposed to go to reclaiming the land at the end of life of the mines isn't there. Last summer several mines closed up for good.  They didn't provide the jobs or tax base they promised and it is a possibility that the county will end up being on the hook for the clean up because the companies no longer exist and there is no money to do it.  The numbers the county came up with to clean up one single mine site is about 1/2 of the yearly budget for the entire county.  And there are at least 4 sites.

Then there are lots stories of employees and contractors not being paid when the sites closed or switched from one owner to another.  And the companies could afford good lawyers and small township boards were scared to take them on and got pushed around.

Had a great meeting. The kid was drooling over my  black gold. He loves woodworking. They are bonded on the cleanup phase. But it's like a company being in business for one year and having a lifetime guarantee 😂. No need to worry about cleanup for awhile with a 40 year lease contract. I've got plenty to think about. On a lease of how much I want to put in and where or the whole place. If I inked the contract now I would start getting paid within 30 days on the development stage until it's built and up and running full bore is when the big money kicks in. 1,000k a acre and increasing. 2025 is the target. Or I could ink the contract to sell out for 12,000k a acre and that includes your wooded areas included. My wooded areas are worth thousands more with black gold 😂. Just ask the neighbor that wants to buy four more acres that's on the table now for 44k a acre and that's cheaper than two three acre parcels per acre that I will have available. If I do anything it would be a lease

A couple interesting notes. They fence in all the solar panel areas. Deer fence. Goats and such are getting the nod on different projects for vegetation control. If or when I wanted a or my attorney to look over their contracts they would help pay to do so. They will negotiate special requests and implement it in the contract. My neighbor that has farm ground next to mine and several others signed with them and he is a commercial attorney. 

I don't know.  Hard to eat solar panels.  Awful lot of poor quality ground out there that might grow sage - Utah, Nevada, New Mexico, etc.  Maybe keep the farm ground growing food and the poor ground growing energy? 

I agree!! It all sounds good but  I told the guy it would be several months before I made a decision 

While eating my lunch this week I was searching FB marketplace for solar items towards my off-grid cabin. Panels, controllers and batteries. 
There are a number of people selling used commercial solar panels removed from solar farms in bulk. The ads show a voltmeter with the voltage output (35.6 v seems common) and typical to see hundreds of panels for sale. When I've googled the life of a farm panel it comes up as 25-35 years but obviously there's a reason these are pulled from use. They say, of course, that these panels have lots of life left in them. 
Must be more to that story?  ??? 
The elec co-op solar farm I drive by often (I-64 near Winchester, KY) was pasture land and now heavily covered in crushed rock. Thats not how you improve ag land? 
Any number of USA cemeteries were bonded, etc., but went kaput with their perpetual care thing ending when the business died. That said, the USA has run out of burial space in many places while older cemeteries become a taxpayer burden  for upkeep. When they say the solar farms gonna be OK for the long ride, look at other businesses that go bankrupt. Solar farms-they do take up valuable space no matter what you say.

A dairy farming friend of mine got approached about a solar setup. The company was going to elevate the panels and spread them further apart, idea being he could graze heifers and beef on the same land. He was able to get them pretty much locked in and agreed on the deal. It didn't end up going through for separate reasons out of both his and the solar companies control. 

Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 07, 2022, 11:28:55 PM
I agree!! It all sounds good but  I told the guy it would be several months before I made a decision

I'd want a lease agreement that requires the yearly lease payments to increase at 1.5x the rate of inflation.
The 1.5 is not a rigid number, make it whatever you are comfortable with.
We all know the numbers put out are low.
GAB

Quote from: kantuckid on September 08, 2022, 09:42:18 AM
While eating my lunch this week I was searching FB marketplace for solar items towards my off-grid cabin. Panels, controllers and batteries.
There are a number of people selling used commercial solar panels removed from solar farms in bulk. The ads show a voltmeter with the voltage output (35.6 v seems common) and typical to see hundreds of panels for sale. When I've googled the life of a farm panel it comes up as 25-35 years but obviously there's a reason these are pulled from use. They say, of course, that these panels have lots of life left in them.
Must be more to that story?  ???
The elec co-op solar farm I drive by often (I-64 near Winchester, KY) was pasture land and now heavily covered in crushed rock. Thats not how you improve ag land?
Any number of USA cemeteries were bonded, etc., but went kaput with their perpetual care thing ending when the business died. That said, the USA has run out of burial space in many places while older cemeteries become a taxpayer burden  for upkeep. When they say the solar farms gonna be OK for the long ride, look at other businesses that go bankrupt. Solar farms-they do take up valuable space no matter what you say.

I bought my panels used.  There was a grass fire under them so they replaced the entire array.  Some were perfect some were worthless.  The better ones he resold.  I dont know what happened to the damaged ones.

Quote from: GAB on September 08, 2022, 04:39:56 PM

Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 07, 2022, 11:28:55 PM
I agree!! It all sounds good but  I told the guy it would be several months before I made a decision

I'd want a lease agreement that requires the yearly lease payments to increase at 1.5x the rate of inflation.
The 1.5 is not a rigid number, make it whatever you are comfortable with.
We all know the numbers put out are low.
GAB

These are the numbers. You are getting paid right out of the gate. It's to their advantage to get it up and running and not keep paying in the development stage.  Like my neighbors land that has five separate properties that go all the way to the electrical sub station miles away. He had just went out of contract and resigned. 
What makes my place unique and they know I know.  I'm the last property that extends into another county and I caught wind the property owner ( big farmer) next door is looking into doing it. In order for that to happen the feed could go right next door otherwise it would be difficult for them (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59695/8F298194-0F1A-45F4-8140-61E7609D7D27.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1662709394)
 

The whole solar thing seems to make more sense to me being put on rooftops and covering shopping mall parking lots(or Amazon warehouse now that malls are about gone).

This past weekend some ridiculous number of streetlights along a Lou KY interstate were dark due to thieves stripping wire. Won't the meth heads have fun in remote solar fields.

I'd rather roof the hay shed with panels and leave the bottom ground intact.

Many people with millions of dollars in farm ground on this project think it's a good idea 😂.  About half and half on selling and leasing agreements. 

Quote from: stavebuyer on September 09, 2022, 04:05:10 AM
The whole solar thing seems to make more sense to me being put on rooftops and covering shopping mall parking lots(or Amazon warehouse now that malls are about gone).

This past weekend some ridiculous number of streetlights along a Lou KY interstate were dark due to thieves stripping wire. Won't the meth heads have fun in remote solar fields.

I'd rather roof the hay shed with panels and leave the bottom ground intact.

It is much easier to put solar panels on or near the ground than it is to put them on roofs.
Being on the ground they are easier to get at to do maintenance. 
The wiring is easier to work on/fix/upgrade. 
If a loose connection starts a fire you don't lose your house.
The pitch of your roof probably isn't ideal for your location for the solar panels.  It is hard to put seasonal or daily solar tracking on a roof mount.
In areas that get snow you need to climb up on the roof to clear snow.
In areas with little rain you need to climb up on the roof to wash the dust off the panels.
House roofs need to be replaced on occasion, you have to remove the panels to do it.
Panels need to be securely mounted, that means lots of holes in your roof that can leak.
The only way solar on a roof makes sense is if that is your only option.  Or on a large project where the entire building is designed first for solar and second to be a building.  Or if panels become so cheap that you don't care if they are even close to optimally positioned to make power.

Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 09, 2022, 05:39:49 AM
Many people with millions of dollars in farm ground on this project think it's a good idea 😂.  About half and half on selling and leasing agreements.

Is there a reason they are putting solar farms on high value, productive farm land instead of lower value land? 
Or is there no low value land that is suitable for building on? 

They look for land with major power lines already there or very close. The lease rates they pay are quite a bit higher than than the typical income from crops. They've been after me for five years or more because I have 3 sets of HV lines and 2 sets of distribution lines on a 300' ROW cutting across my place. I've talked to a few just to see what the deal is but it doesn't work at all for me. My place is ag zoning but it's smack in the middle of some of the most intense development on the planet and the land is worth stupid $$. Plus a forty year lease isn't that attractive at me age. 

When they are trying to get you to sign, how many acres of land are they trying to get you to lease/sell them?

As little as 30 acres, as much as 150 acres. There's some minimum threshold for a solar farm probably but I don't know what that number is. 

The government subsidies and the hysteria over green energy seems to make these solar companies foam at the mouth over the potential for profit. Most likely they can do a project, make a big profit in the short term, then after five years or so keep milking it or let it go bankrupt and be way ahead either way. 

That is much bigger than the solar projects around here.  They tend to be in 3-6 acre range in this area.

https://monteselectricinc.com/project/buckingham/ (https://monteselectricinc.com/project/buckingham/)

Various projects. Just one of the many companies developing solar. 

I've got multiple friends that have been involved with solar projects of various sizes from rooftops to ground setups. Some of them leased the land out some did the excavation required. The two things they all said is without the tax incentives none of it makes sense. The other thing that seems to be a theme is the solar companies change hands or are bought out constantly. So very rarely who you do initial negotiations with is who you end up dealing with. Something to keep in mind. 
The guys that did the excavation some of which literally flattened mountains said the investment companies have deadlines to meet with the government to start receiving the subsidies. At that point no expense is spared to move things along. 
I know a guy that was foreman on one of these jobs, told me they were spending 50 grand a week in fuel alone and that was 4-5  years ago when fuel was cheap. 
Takes a lot of "green" energy to offset that in my opinion. 

The solar farms in this part of the state are measured in the THOUSANDS of acres at a whack.  4,5,6 Thousand acres, clear cut, flattened, fenced, covered with rock and glass.  Sure makes for a pretty backdrop.  Can't see it from the city so it must be "Green".  

I half suspect the guys with top notch dirt are getting against the wall with the cost of operations, equipment, etc so divert income one way or another, or they are getting against the wall with regards to trips around the sun and nobody wants to work hard enough to take things over so may as well go fishing.  

Amazon and Facebook are two of the biggest buyers of this solar power credit, I agree let them cover their roofs and parking lots with the panels.  

Solar panels here and there no matter how "inefficient" will collectively add up to more energy savings with less negative impacts than giant solar farms whose main objective is to harvest tax dollars. You can't build a 24/7 grid around something that produces 1/3 of time. 

The future is Crypto. Yeah, right.

So give me the negative impacts of the solar farms besides visual and possibly surrounding land value. Could actually drive it up more. With cute little goats eating the grass and looking up to see the panels supported by metal framework facing the sunrise and eventually facing the sunset in a fenced in area. I want to hear it. I can think of several positives that include fueling the economy. But maybe the planning commissioners got paid off with a freezer full of money and some nice luxury vacations for approving it to move forward last year.

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on September 09, 2022, 09:53:47 AM

Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 09, 2022, 05:39:49 AM
Many people with millions of dollars in farm ground on this project think it's a good idea 😂.  About half and half on selling and leasing agreements.

Is there a reason they are putting solar farms on high value, productive farm land instead of lower value land?  
Or is there no low value land that is suitable for building on?

There are some big farmers that are not going to do it. There is plenty of farm ground around some million dollar homes on the edge of the city and they could sell for big money to be developed but they are still farming it. Not everyone will drink the solar Kool-Aid

Quote from: btulloh on September 09, 2022, 10:54:09 AM
https://monteselectricinc.com/project/buckingham/ (https://monteselectricinc.com/project/buckingham/)

Various projects. Just one of the many companies developing solar.

Looks like they have quite a few completed projects. Here is the Company behind this project. They have a pretty nice video of showing what the panels look like and how the rotate out in a farm setting.  
https://rangerpower.com/ (https://rangerpower.com/).      

Take multi thousand acre blocks out of timber production, carbon sequestration, wildlife habitat, water infiltration and yes, the local impact is huge. All for the benefit of some NIMBYS who want to tell me how to live.

Reminds me of the whole "Bio Solids" deal. Take city solid waste, hazardous waste and heavy metals, make up a fancy brochure then dump them on farm fields a long way from the city. 

Yet somehow my cattle are destroying the planet. 

Quote from: Walnut Beast on September 09, 2022, 05:39:49 AM
Many people with millions of dollars in farm ground on this project think it's a good idea 😂.  About half and half on selling and leasing agreements.

That's because there are lot's of money hungry people out there, it fogs their judgment. How many years down the road will it take for them to see the errors in their plans? Not very many, and remember who said it. ;D

I get it. But money hungry! I see no difference of people charging for sawmill services or selling wood and charging top dollar or making out like a bandit on selling something. I don't hear to many people giving good guy discounts or working for free. I guess what I'm trying to say is someone making a decision to capitalize on a smart financial opportunity are taking it. Call it money hungry until the opportunity involved your land! Then who is money hungry 😂. And if it all doesn't work out ? Who has the liability and takes the losses. The money hungry person

Well, I could go clearcut my woodlot to cash in to, but I don't want to do that to my land. Most woodot owners around here have cashed in over the last 40 years and for some that thought it would save the farm, they lost it anyway. The difference in the end was the government didn't bale the losers, they bought and paid for a farm for the winners. Where else does $2-3M for a farm and a new house come from when your pockets were empty last week? I grew up around here and know where/what they came from. Not only farming, I see one character getting free money every few years and nothing he did ever stuck. It sure is expensive to buy votes, that is what green energy projects do. :D

Yeah, the aftermath is on the fortune seeker who chases dreams. The big wigs go onto the next scheme. If there is remediation, enforcement will clamp down on the little guy, while the big cahoot will get years of reprieve to a point it is forgotten about.

https://www.deshaw.com/who-we-are (https://www.deshaw.com/who-we-are)

That's the money group behind Ranger Power and many other big projects. Shaw investments . That only specialize in commercial renewable power. Billionaire hedge fund owner / company that's on the stock exchange. I'm sure they know and use all the government funding available. 

No trees getting wiped out here on this project to put solar farms here only open land being converted to solar farms

  So now someone that owns the land wants to wipe out lob pine and put it into solar (the lob replaced a field created by slash and burn of the existing forests 150-200 years ago).  In 40 years they may take them down and put it all into WO.   If solar farm leases are making them $1000 a year/acre that dwarfs whatever the pine pays, dwarfs it.  Frankly I'm shocked by the rents these solar farms are paying.  That was all before the latest solar incentives.  It's going to be bonkers.   It's the same all over the world though, solar has gotten quite cheap and even though the credits (in USA) had dried up a few years ago the demand for solar projects hadn't ended- it was booming.  

The cost to buy a farm and install solar is so much less than the costs to put up a gas peaker plant and fuel it that the incentives don't matter.  Frankly I don't see the point of tax credits for solar farms.  The question for all the renewables is when do the batteries get here.  With the demand for EVs growing and despite having some 23 battery plants under construction in the USA alone (enough for 9 million or so cars a year) there is going to be a 5 year lag until we really see utility scale battery deployment.  It's starting, don't get me wrong, but it is tiny compared to the capacity needed to really shift solar. Of course wind offsets a lot of the shifting need as it is most active at night. Sometime in late 202X we'll see every solar farm come with huge utility battery and that will then start making things interesting. 

Quote from: btulloh on September 09, 2022, 10:16:03 AM
They look for land with major power lines already there or very close. The lease rates they pay are quite a bit higher than than the typical income from crops. They've been after me for five years or more because I have 3 sets of HV lines and 2 sets of distribution lines on a 300' ROW cutting across my place. I've talked to a few just to see what the deal is but it doesn't work at all for me. My place is ag zoning but it's smack in the middle of some of the most intense development on the planet and the land is worth stupid $$. Plus a forty year lease isn't that attractive at me age.

@Joe Hillmann (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=25805) - the reason that the best farmland is close to towns is that is the reason that the towns are there in the first place, good farmland.  The reason that more HV lines exists closer to the town is they concentrate as you get closer to the hub- they bring power to where the people live.  Like a wheel, the closer you get to the center the more likely you are to be close to a spoke.  Being close to a spoke (HV line) is key for solar and that means the most likely farms are the closest to towns and that is likely the best farmland.  There are exceptions but this is a general rule.  
Some HV are long distance and carry power across some truly rural areas with few people.  Powerplants or dams that were some distance from people - the old thermal power plants or nukes needed a lot of cooling and so they needed to be near artificial reservoirs and those needed to be built where they would not displace towns.  Because of this many older thermal plants (coal) were quite a ways from towns and there are long transmission lines built, building those transmission lines took a lot of land and killed land values.  Ironic that they are now increasing land values.

Did you know Molten salt is used in solar energy storage 

Who needs food security anyway. 

Let the fireworks begin! The subdivision owners have banded together and filed a lawsuit in district court against the solar company and landowners. They are furious that the agriculture zoning got changed and passed by the planning commission to pave the way for the project. 

https://journalstar.com/business/local/neighbors-sue-in-attempt-to-stop-solar-farm-east-of-lincoln/article_04e9bcfc-43f2-5f24-9f96-a3899b7a97fd.html (https://journalstar.com/business/local/neighbors-sue-in-attempt-to-stop-solar-farm-east-of-lincoln/article_04e9bcfc-43f2-5f24-9f96-a3899b7a97fd.html)

They are not happy with the double dipping. Landowners did subdivisions and after they got to look at corn and bean fields around them they are really wound up by the corn 🌽 getting replaced by solar panels. Some of the same people living there probably love green energy and are pro electric but when it's in their backyard it's a different story

That's the way it always is, someone else is expected the bare with it. Not them in their utopian village. Ask some certain politician if he and the wife want to look at offshore windmills from their sea side mansion. :D

Put in pigs ::). Rural ag zoning here allows solar farms, and sawmills. They would probably be happier with the solar farm than me. Unless it is excluded in the zoning, tell em to have a nice day.

We worked in one gated farmette community. One neighbor put in several panel arrays for the house and out near one well. You would think he had put up a walmart  :D.

Assuming it is legal, if the neighbors want to take that legitimate use away from the landowner they need to come up with a sweeter offer and see if he is interested. After barking I would doubt it. We seem to forget that part. 

We are getting a big field nearby, top of the mountain near the interstate, about where the trucks and Tesla's will need a refill. 

Guess they plan on some kind of solar or solar offset somewhere. 6 miles from the house. Second major new distillery in as many years in a small county. Not many places left to hide anymore.

https://www.kentucky.gov/Pages/Activity-stream.aspx?n=GovernorBeshear&prId=1599

That site showed it is blocked by Microsoft. Looking into it, it appears they were hacked back in October. Possibly they are blocking any access from outside the country?

Russian hackers knock US state government websites offline | CNN Politics (https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/05/politics/russian-hackers-state-government-websites)

Pro-Russian group claims responsibility for Kentucky government website outages (https://www.lpm.org/news/2022-10-06/pro-russian-group-claims-responsibility-for-kentucky-government-website-outages)

Russian hackers so block the Canadiens  ::)

Maybe this link will work SD?



Pernod Ricard to make Jefferson's Bourbon Kentucky distillery | Lexington Herald Leader (https://www.kentucky.com/lexgoeat/bourbon/article269767532.html)

Yes that news site worked. That's quite a distillery, 115,000 barrels annually. I'm sure there are a few Canucks that would help consume it. :D

I didn't have any problems with the links. Pretty interesting! 

A little background. Two weeks ago the county zoning board rejected the request to rezone that ground from ag to industrial. The project was undisclosed but was expected to be a distillery. Lots of issues with black mold covering everything within quite a distance from distillers. The residents were very much in opposition. City council went into executive session and immediately annexed the ground from the county so they could approve the project. At the same time the state is trying do away with the special tax local districts levy on the bourbon in the barrels as they age.

Since they will be breaking ground in a less than a month, it is pretty obvious the check writers and favor granters inked this deal quite some time ago.

After talking to zoning yesterday about many things including solar. He said his problem is with the storage of the energy. Another state he discussed that when they shut the big windmills down and start the boilers that it actually costs more money. 

As for everyone that's worried about a project being abandoned most will require a bond. And in order for that to be reduced that after so many years moving forward that independent appraisals would dictate

I am curious how they plan to have a carbon free distillery in a year's time? Independent Stave who is currently adding 5 more kilns at the cooperage on the east end of town uses natural gas to flame treat the barrels as well as fire kilns with gas and wood waste. I guess the carbon to fire treat and kiln dry 115k barrels per year doesn't count? Can you spell gimmick?  ::)

Natural gas and wood is net zero. Can't see how natural gas is, not matured in 100 years like a tree is. But they've got some kind of science to explain it I'm sure. :D

117 pounds of CO₂ are produced per million British thermal units (MMBtu), 200 lbs for coal.

There is such a thing as renewable natural gas. It is basically methane captured from vents that normally would go into the air. Its cleaned up and pumped back into natural gas lines. The people pumping it into the line get a certificate for the volume pumped in and someone downstream buys the certificate to cover the gas they use. The sources for RNG are landfills and anerobic digesters processing animal or people manure. Not sure what the equivalent to a human but a cow puts out enough power to keep a 100 watt light bulb lit, so just picture a cow with a 100 watt lightbulb in its butt;) I think a hog is 40 watts and a chicken is 2.5 watts. Anerobic digesters can work on a lot of waste products, several regional grocery stores send their outof date/spoiled food to digester plants. 

The local landfill used to have flare cam aimed at a flare pipe on their vent system, at night it was a nice blue flame coming out of a 6 or 8" pipe. The flame was several feet long. They are looking at putting in a RNG system.

Well since "the other" natural gas was formed the same way why would one be considered renewable and the other isn't?

Simply put there is 2 "sorts" of carbon. There is the stuff that's currently circulating in the ecosystem. In the air / soil / plants / animals / us. You can assume that's naturally a fairly stable quantity. Plants capture it, then get eaten / burned etc and the carbon is eventually released back unto the air, to be recirculated. But it's the same carbon being cycled around.

Other carbon has been buried and forgotten millions of years ago. Probably at a time when the CO2 levels were higher, and a lot of material got buried and forgotten. Basically removed from the ecosystem, and stashed underground as coal / oil and NG. It's releasing large amount of that buried carbon that could affect the climate. 

Methane from a landfill still counts as the current circulating type, because we buried it only a few years ago. It's the same as burning a 50 year old tree, it's not adding any more carbon to the system. Same a capturing methane from cow poop, or using corn / wood waste to power a distillery. 

I haven't looked into what the distillery is actually going to do, but if they for example put in a wood fired co-gen plant, powered by wood waste from the local sawmills, then that would go a long way towards being carbon neutral. The carbon in the Ethanol they sell is carbon neutral, it as corn a few weeks earlier, it's just the energy used in the process that they need to account for.  

So if the current carbon isn't a problem, they why all the big to do over cow burps? 

Quote from: Southside on December 08, 2022, 10:10:45 PM
So if the current carbon isn't a problem, they why all the big to do over cow burps?

They burp methane, which is a lot more "greenhousie" than CO2. So one ton of methane is worth about 80 tons of CO2 in warming. 
In the overall scheme of things cows would balance out as the methane would eventually break down.  But methane release (from any source) is counted as a greenhouse gas in a big way. That's another reason that capturing landfill gas and burning it is favoured. Not only can you spin a gas turbine and get some power, but you have turned the methane into less nasty CO2. 
Current research is on how to adjust cows feed and gut bacteria to make less methane. Of course you don't want them brewing alcohol in their gut either, too many drunk cows staggering about. :D. 

But they consumed the carbon in the renewable plants that you said were part of the current system so how is it not still renewable? If you get their gut too acidic they don't get drunk, they just die of acidosis.  

Quote from: Southside on December 08, 2022, 10:36:55 PMBut they consumed the carbon in the renewable plants that you said were part of the current system so how is it not still renewable?

If they only ate "self-harvested" native vegetation, yes. But a big part of their feedlot diet is corn/soy which requires a tractor, fertilizer, pesticides, transportation etc.

There's a lot of white washing of methane. It can come from a lot of sources, swamps (40% of production), ocean, ag, garbage heap, ancient formations, recovery from petroleum processing, insect colonies (termites). Whose ever burning it for power is getting it any way they can get it. That includes the ancient deposit stuff and off oil processing itself. A whole industry has been developed getting it out of the ground. Don't underestimate the power of deception. :D

Quote from: Southside on December 08, 2022, 10:36:55 PM
But they consumed the carbon in the renewable plants that you said were part of the current system so how is it not still renewable? If you get their gut too acidic they don't get drunk, they just die of acidosis.  

They were part of the system 70 million years ago. Earth was very different then. Dinosaurs wandered around Greenland and Antarctica. Sea levels and the very air were also different. Taking X zillion tons of carbon OUT of the ecosystem over millions of years gradually changed the climate until it's what we have now.  We KNOW the climate can change, from both external factors and Earth related ones, even organic forces. Oxygen only exists in a free state on Earth BECAUSE life exists. 
It's a sudden change that's a problem. Not for "life" in general, because the changes won't be that severe. The Cockroaches and rats will survive. Earth has seen worse in the past, hence us puny mammals are in charge, not the dinosaurs. It's the economic and social disruption it could cause. 
Now if it's a super-volcano or asteroid strike, then tough luck NZ or Colorado, and expect assorted famines around the world for a couple of years. Can't do a lot about that, although NASA is working to deflecting asteroids if they spot them soon enough. 

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