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North vs South

Started by Don P, November 06, 2001, 10:21:59 AM

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Don P

I'm not sure whether this is strictly proper but I wanted you to see some parts of posts on another forum and give me your thoughts.

..............
Here we go, this thread will get people going.
So, here is my un-biased answer. There is no real need to kiln dry a log as long as the manufacturer engineers and designs for settling. Some manufacturers (those who really push the kiln drying issue) need to because they have a bug infestation problem in their logs. These are usually companies that are located in the mid (NJ, PA, etc) part of the country and get their logs locally. Kiln drying will kill the bugs.

Yes I have to agree........logs from colder climates is true. The logs for our handcrafted log homes are harvested in the colder climates of B.C. Canada.....slow growth..less shrinkage and far less bug infestation. The trees we use are 100 plus years old...in my opinion you need old growth timber with straight grain and 0% rot. Keep in mind your home is your wood
.....................

CHARLIE

DonP, I believe that for cabinet building kiln dried wood is more stable and has less movement because the moisture content is less.  Also, slow growth wood (tighter rings) gives a cabinet builder less movement and more strength.  For house construction purposes, I think air dried would be fine, but I think that large lumber companies kiln dry wood so they can move it to market faster and not because of the bugs. Just my opinion though and I don't have a danged thing to back it up with.......but I'll go down fighting. :D :D

By the by......I got my 4th tree! I'm a Senor' now!  8) 8)   I think one more post and you'll be a Senor' too! 8) 8) :o
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

swampwhiteoak

DonP,
Your post seems to be refering to kiln dried logs not lumber.  Are we talking about cabin building here?  I ask cause I never heard of drying logs before they're sawed.  I also can't imagine using anything but kiln-dried lumber for building purposes.

Ron Wenrich

Well, some guys up here kiln dry and some don't.  We cut cabin stock as well as post and beam stock.  Never kiln dry a single piece.  But, they are well air dried.

Not sure what you mean about bugs.  I have seen very few bugs in white pine.  Not in the log or the lumber.  You get carpenter ants and carpenter bees in untreated and exposed wood.  Paint takes care of the bees.  Keeping it dry will take care of the ants.

I do know guys that tent the stock, then have Orkin come out and fumigate.  It is a lot cheaper than kiln drying and a good insurance for the home owner and builder.

To kiln dry 6x8 pine would take some time.  I don't think you could force it too much.  I imagine it would check even faster than air dried.  Besides, wouldn't the kiln dried will swell after it gets out into humid air?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Don P

Thanks for the input guys. I didn't want to write anything more at first so as not to influence any responses. What had me wondering was not the issue of whether or not to kiln dry (have my own opinions there, and the one responder being a handscriber can not really be expected to kiln dry his stock) but the comments about the superiority of northern wood. I can see that fungi and bugs have a shorter munching season but nature always seems to find a way to recycle. Is the slower grown northern wood also better as far as stability? Yes this was on a log home forum.

Ron Wenrich

It's not so much how slow the wood grows, some of the northern species just don't shrink as much.  Northern white cedar shrinks 7.2% while loblolly pine shrinks 12.3%.  

One thing about KD stock in stores; most of the stuff is marked SD.  That stands for skin dry.  Stock is put into a kiln for 48 hours.  Dry on the outside, still wet on the inside.  Not all KD is equal.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Tom

Oh yes, Northern wood is far superior to Southern wood.   I have it on good account from the Southern pulpwood mills who use southern Hardwoods for furnace fodder.  

Why, if southern hardwoods were as good as northern hardwoods then their expense would be too great to use in a boiler furnace.  The paper mills have told us from the beginning that our wood is no good.  Now the pine will make paper and is worth a little bit so they are doing the land owner a favor by providing him some salary for his pines.  Enough money that most folks will replant.  The rest of the trees though aren't worth spit and the paper companies have provided an outlet to landowners to dispose of their fire damaged pines and other species, oaks, cedars, bays, gums, etc.  They actually will give a little bit of money to help offset the cost of fuel hauling the wood to the mill.  How wonderful it is to have such neighbors to look out for the welfare of their suppliers.  When Pulpwood prices were in the neighborhood of $45 per cord (app. 5200 lbs) These fine organizations offered as much as $3 per cord for  hardwoods.

Now, don't tell anybody but, I have found markets for locally grown hardwoods at $.50-$1 per board foot rough and green and there is a growing black market of hardwoods making its way to local cabinet makers and craftsman. Shhhh-h-h-h, don't tell anybody. If the trend catches on then the paper companies will find themselves in dire straights to come up with fuel for their boilers.

Don P

Thats right, KD is an unquantified stamp on its own.
I do take issue with the S-Dry definition though...I just got out my canadian wood council span book. S-DRY is surfaced dry, at a moisture content of 19% or less at the time of surfacing. S-GRN is surfaced green at a MC of 19% or greater at the time of surfacing. KD 19 is another stamp meaning 19% or below. KD15 is on alot of shelf board and interior type wood...although interior woods should really come in at 8-10%.
We always called it sorta-dry :D
I know what your talking about with the shipping dry, just enough to knock down the mold and remove some weight ...thats the job alot of logs get too. Both doors open and the load rolling thru the kiln, marketed as KD :(
I advise people to quantify the MC in the purchase agreement,  just as is done in industry.

When I spoke with an authority on drying he suggested I shed dry first and then finish in a kiln to get the MC's down to my target levels and set pitch. Actually I would like to build with logs a little below their final, or equilibrium, moisture content and then have them swell a bit in service...tight cooperage. 8) Basically on my little scale I would put one load or houseworth in a kiln while building another one...a very slow schedule as you alluded to.

But back to what was burning my shorts. These guys are inferring that southern Eastern White Pine trees are inferior to northern trees of the same species. This was not just one exchange it is an ongoing diatribe.As I was quite certain the bug issue was B.S. it called everything they said into question. I have thus far not engaged nor has anyone else challanged these assertions but am bothered by what I feel is an untruth being forwarded. Thing is, I am no more certain than I feel these individuals are. So, there it is, just want to know. I realize its going pretty much back in a circle we've touched on before but ,hey, now there's a regional twist to the question also, just to really muddy it up.

Gordon

Gee guess I live to far north no black market up this way. ;D

But your secret is safe with me Tom. Ta think that some people actually pay $3 for a bushel basket of wood to have a fire by. Crazy world isn't it.

A story comes to mind that happened a few years back. I was entering a campground in NJ to work on a trailer. It had been a very dry summer.

After passing the little guardhouse at the entrance of the campground the usual speedlimit sign. Then right after that a large sign that said State burn ban in effect no campfires or fires of any kind. About 100 yards down the lane was a man sitting in the back of a pickup truck with bundled wood for sale to campers. ??? hummmmm

I couldn't resist.
So I rolled down the window and asked how business was. He said it never had been so slow. I asked him if he had any idea why. He couldn't figure it out, said he was selling the wood cheaper than any other place around and still wasn't selling any. :o Makes ya wonder.

I told him it was a weekday and maybe the weekend would be busier. Wonder if it was.

Gordon

Tom

I really should stop talking "tongue in cheek" because I fear that I am taken too seriously too often.   :D

The point I was making is that people who can benefit from creating rules operate under a different agenda than the bulk of the population and the rules don't necessarily follow the truth.

Kiln dried wood has a place when movement  is to be curtailed or speed to market is to be enhanced or insects need to be exterminated or pitch is to be set.  I understand that it is not necessary in that time will accomplish the same stability and if the wood isn't infected with insects then that eliminates that reason to kiln it.  Kilning also doesn't inhibit future infestations of insects.

There are reasons to not put wood in a kiln.  Air dried wood and green wood bend better than kilned wood as an example.

Perhaps log homes may benefit from kilned wood in the speed to market or insect control aspect but, as in the "old wives tale" that southern wood is no good,  there is money to be made by creating rules that perpetrate any form of value added process.  

I would suspect that there are a lot of "means" that may not be totally true, created for the sole purpose of validating an argument. They may not be totally true in their own right but are disguised in their truth by the argument they support. :-/

Gordon, $3 for a basketful (one fire) isn't nearly as "entrepreneurial" as $10 for a rick.(two fires) I think I'm in the wrong business sometimes.  My wife is anxious to sell firewood on the street corner for this reason and is serious enough that she bought a splitter...........for me to split wood with. :D

Gordon

Tom things are looking up here is the latest prices.

 
Past 30 Day Southwide Average   dollars per ton
pine pulpwood  $ 7.03  hardwood pulpwood $ 5.96  
pine chip n' saw  $ 26.93  hardwood saw timber $ 21.88  
pine saw timber $ 45.83  
 
 Sure makes you wonder how messing with pulpwood pays off.
Still don't understand how pine brings more than hardwood. Alot more market for the pine? Maybe...
Gordon

Tom

That's what I been tryin' to tell you Gordon.  They've been messin' with our heads and now everybody has been brainwashed into believing that Southern Hardwoods are no good. :D

At those prices I don't see how anybody but the lumber retailer can stay in business. :'(   I am partial to pine so I can see why it's worth something.  God really knew what he was doing when he made a pine tree.  Kinda like a pig.  They use everything but the squeal and would use it if they could catch it.

There aren't many landowners cutting wood down here now.  What market there is doesn't pay.  I wish landowners would form a Co-op and make the big mills beg for wood one day. :-[ ;D :D

Puttin' out a call for Ron Scott.......whaddaya think Ron? or have we camo'd the question to the point that you can't find it?

Don P

Boy, now you're onto something Tom...I think it is probably perception at the levels of our use.Perhaps I would even cull more than a comperable set up elsewhere to put out the same product...but the product not the tree is where the comparison should be made. Rather than defending the qualities of my locally available wood maybe I should do like the fancy night clubs and interview my clientele to see if they are good enough for IT  :D :D.
I agree with you about time getting wood down to outdoor equilibrium moisture content. It only takes a kiln if you want to get below that level for some reason.
As for a chat line...well I missed your first response while typing mine to Ron's...by 30 some minutes :D :D I think you guys would fall asleep waiting!


Ron Wenrich

Tom

There are a few problems with southern hardwoods, from what I understand.  Aren't these grown where its uneconomical to grow pine.  If you grow hardwoods offsite, then the quality will be less.  Poorer sites yield poorer quality.  I see it all the time.

Up here I have always advocated growing pine on sites that don't support good quality hardwoods.  Pine gives more yield per acre in shorter amounts of time.  But, we have a very limited pine market.

Another factor effecting southern hardwoods is how they grade them, and their market.  From market reports, I see that the South has no F1F grade.  That means if it has a 1 Common back, it drops to a 1 Common price.  That is a huge price differential.

The further north you go, the smaller pieces of clear lumber are sold on the Select grade.  Minimum size is 4"x6' and can contain a 1 Common back.  In my area, we can't sell much on the Select grade.  That puts us at a disadvantage to more northern mills.  Put those grades into your southern mix, and the value would be more.

One problem I have seen in areas that are heavy to pine production is they aren't as good in manufacturing hardwoods.  The processes are different.  I saw one Oregon mill that was producing hardwoods, primarily big leaf maple and alder.  They cut all their logs 10' and sawed it up like pine.  They are considered cutting edge in their parts.

As for timber co-ops, I am a huge supporter.  I think landowners should be involved in the economic process from land to some form of product.  That would make more economic sense, and better land use practices then the hodge podge we have now.  

A 10,000 acre co-op could support a small to medium sized sawmill.  All the logs and lumber would be processed locally instead of exported to another area.  I don't see the economics of trucking logs 100+ mile to mills.  

I tried to introduce the co-op idea to the Pennsylvania Grange, figuring farmers would understand the co-op idea better.  It was shot down by their forestry committee.  Not suprisingly, it consisted only of consulting foresters, and they didn't want the competition.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

CHARLIE

Ron, I don't know a danged thing about land management, but I certainly agree with you concerning the Co-ops. It seems that a unit of land owners would wield a bigger stick and get better attention (prices) from sawmills than indiviudally. The only problem I can see is that with any organization, someone would have to organize and run it and the participant would have the responsibility to make the Co-op successful. To often I find that a lot of people don't want the responsibility of having to make a decision.

Question:  You mentioned that the Southern hardwoods are grown 'off site'.  What does that mean?  I'm not sure what 'on site' / 'off site' is.  I think I have a pretty good idea though.  Anyway.....and here goes me putting my stupidity right out there for all to see.....Why would the wood from a tree that grows in 'inferior' soil be of less value?  I would think that the tree might grow slower and their might not be as many trees, but I can't equate that to the quality of the boards that would come from a harvested tree. ::)  
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Tom

In all honesty there is no hardwood market down here because pine is the money tree.

Hardwoods are not grown as a crop but are allowed to exist in areas where pines are difficult to harvest or left as Residential trees in subdivisions.

Because the pulpwood industry has run the market for so many years, no interest has been shown in hardwoods until Paulownia reared its head.  Unfortunately, it is too labor intensive for Company land and to risky for private land, (he may end up with a weed tree if the paper mills don't except it.)

The best football I've ever seen was Jr. Hi School.  They are too naive to realize they could get hurt going all out.  That's what it will take to create a hardwood market in the south, Naivete

Ron Wenrich

Trees have certain requirements to maintain good growth.  Those include sunlight, nutrients and water.  Of those 3, foresters generally only control sunlight through limiting competition.

Soil nutrients and the ability to hold them is dependent on where the soil comes from.  If you have sandy soil, the nutrients, as well as the surface water quickly leaches out.  Some soils are more acidic and some more basic.  

Those trees that are well adapted to a specific site will grow well.  Walnut, ash and red oak do really well on a good site.  On a poorer site, they might not grow at all.

Think of farming.  They tried farming all the way to the ridge tops here in the East.  It didn't work for crops, so they tried using it for livestock.  It didn't even support cattle very well, so it was left to revert back to forest.  Farmers use the better soil for growing crops until a developer buys the farm and converts it to houses. >:(

Growing slow and failing to thrive are two different things.  A tree can be surpressed and continue to live, since it gets sufficient nutrients.  But, if a site doesn't give enough nutrients, it will struggle and become weak.  That is where a lot of defects start to form, such as rot and bug infestations.

On co-ops.  A co-op would be run by an advisory board and have an executive director.  They would also own their own logging crews and quite possibly their foresters and mill.  That cuts out 3 middlemen who all profit from the landowners initial risk of growing trees.  25% of Sweden's lumber is produced from co-op run mills.

Kinda like Tiger Woods gets more for his picture on a box of Wheaties then the farmer who put the product in the box.  Too many middlemen for the farmer to profit.  Sunshine and Blue Diamond are successful co-ops.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ron Wenrich

Tom

We have the same problem up here with softwood.  We have no softwood market.  I can get $1/bf for clear pine and $1.20 for clear red oak.  Pine goes for $100/Mbf and oak goes for $400/Mbf.  No competition for the pine, so the prices stay low.

We have no pulpwood market.  Most of our small stuff is left in the woods until it reaches 14" dbh and then it can be used for sawlogs.  That is poor mgmt.

Small logs have been going into fuelwood, but the oil market is so low, and coal is cheap that fuelwood markets have been weak.  

Some wood is chipped for mulch.  Some goes to scragg mills, but they are dependent on the pallet business and I have heard they aren't paying their bills.   :(

The reason pine pulpwood is higher, I believe the processing is less expensive than hardwoods.  Pulpwood prices in general have come down due to the foreign pulp market.  We have a paper mill that brings in all of its pulp from Brazil.  This threw several loggers out of work and caused a lot of mills to find alternate markets for their chips.  

The pulp is imported to Canadian ports, then sent to the mills by train.  It has also effected Canadian plants, as well.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Tom

Man, I can't believe that they are importing pulp.  We have loggers playing checkers on the side of the road because the price is so low they can't run their trucks.  I've seen some pulp on trains but don't know where it is going.

To bad these southern loggers and land owners can't rig up a market with mills up there that are importing. They might could keep their U.S. dollars in the local economy.

woodmills1

gordon, do you really buy and sell saw timber by the ton?  here in the northeast it is always by the 1000 bd ft measured on scale sticks.  i have bought pine as low as 50/thousand,  :)though that was during the summer stain season.  i have seen scale slips from truckers that averaged 300/ thousand for nice fat fresh pine. i have bought oak at as low as $100/thousand though i expect metal when prices are that low.  one of the local farmers had a lot of oak that he had a neighbor cut and the quality was so high that he got a $1000/thousand as logs, and the buyer picked it up at his farm.  some 25,000 feet and dollars that he split with the cutter, though these were 20 inch veneer quality. :D  good log run red oak is around $400/thousand delivered to the mill.  figure a third each for the owner, the cutter, and the hauler.  also firewood from the tops is running $220 a cord dry split delivered.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Ron Scott

Some very low prices. The pulp mills pretty much control the forest land management by their type operations. Not the best for the landowner when only sawlogs are removed and the remaining wood products (pulpwood, firewood, etc) are left in the woods. a lot of wasted wood.

This really trashes the forest. When neighboring landowners see this they won't sell their timber. I require all wood to a 4" top to be removed or I don't sell the timber. Most sales are also short wooded. One needs to landscape the forest, not trash it.

When landowners won't sell their wood and pulpmills won't pay a price for a living wage, they go elsewhere including
the cheaper foreign markets.

The appearance and road conditions left by logging jobs after harvest is an important factor in retaining a supply of wood now days both from public and nonindustrial private landowners.
~Ron

Tom

Short-wood is almost a thing of the past here, Ron.  The mills have gone to tree length processing and the short-wood pulp-wooders are falling by the wayside.  When the mills will buy short-wood it is perhaps one day per week and often they restrain for weeks on end.  

Urban wood that used to go for short-wood is now sent to the landfill or ground in a tub grinder and returned to the forest floor.  This practice is causing some consternation because the trees are replaced by buildings and the inspectors don't want organics under the buildings.  Don't know where it will end.  

Much of the tailings from a logging operation were once gathered by short-wooders and now they are wind-rowed.

There's been many a kid put through college by a hard working daddy with a short-wood truck.  That's an industry that is being pushed out in favor of mechanization, speed and greed.

Ron Wenrich

woodsmill

How much firewood you want at that price?  That is comparable to oil @ $2.20/gal or coal @ $220/ton.  Way too high.  We have a rough time at $100/cd, but ours isn't dry. When the economy goes bad, everyone goes out and peddles firewood, which really depresses the price.

Red oak veneer is around $1500/Mbf in my area.  Buyers are getting picky.  

Landowners are getting $400/Mbf on the stump.  Loggers lose on some logs, but gain on the others.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Ron Wenrich

Ron

If you demanded that the small trees would be cut in my area, you wouldn't have too many loggers bidding on your sale.  There just isn't enough money in it.

It would be OK to have the stuff cut and let lay, but it would come off the sale price due to the extra step.

Most sale contracts call for cutting tops down to a 4' height.  Letting the tops lay help keep the deer off any sprouts that are under the tops.  Besides, letting the tops rot may be just  advantageous as trucking them out.

By cutting the tops down, the appearance usually looks pretty good, if the logger doesn't hog up the residual stand.  All our roads are seeded with grass and water bars put in place.  Some jobs look good, but the stands have been gutted.  Not my idea of good mgmt.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Gordon

Woodmill no wood in this area isn't bought by the ton. I copied those figures from a table of southern prices. Guess at times by the ton would be nice, other times you would be getting raped. Guess it might even out in the end. Na it would end up in the mills favor.

Was rotary cutting a ditch line, and a few small fields today at one of the local mills He's got a good stock of sawlogs in his yard. It's an amish mill. Also grinds mulch and has a firewood processor. But along the way to that mill I pass another much larger mill and his stock in the yard was about twenty sawlogs. Must be hard times.

We got to talking price some and you would be better off to let those trees grow for now anyway. Prices are rock bottom. He said it's not picking up but slowing up.  But he is selling the heck out of firewood.

Oh and the best thing of all, since it was an amish job I had to do it today and it got me out of babysitting. ;D ;D
Well for most of the day anyway.
Gordon

Ron Wenrich

Gordon

2 months ago, we had a hard time getting rid of our low grade.  No one wanted pallet cants or boards.  2 weeks ago, they cleaned out our yard.  Prices might be low, but stock is moving.  If you can move your stock, you keep your capital moving.

Prices have not moved, but lumber has moved.  There was a time that prices were OK, but no one was buying.  It reminds me what an egg farmer told me.  When they need eggs, prices are low; when they don't need eggs, prices are high.  The egg farmer figured out that he lost less money by not having chickens; so he retired.   :D

I don't see these markets improving anytime soon.  I see steady markets and steady demand.  A heavy, snowy winter could change that somewhat.  But, for the next 6 months, more of the same.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

woodmills1

only quoting what the firewood people who have dry left are getting right now.  tonight i heard one say he got paid 235/cord.  i only deliver a little and got 195 on my last. :D  10 years ago i was only firewood. woodmizer changed that.  :D now i am looking at lots of trees that all have tops.  ;D when times are bad it seems firewood prices go up.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Ron Scott

Yes, my timber sales are quite rigid. All selective cut northern hardwood sales have all merchantable wood to a 4" top removed. All wood is paid for in advance by lump sum sale.

Slash is looped and scattered to 4 feet high maximum horizontal with the ground. Remaining trees are not skinned or damaged. Future timber quality for the landowner remains to the best effort possible. Jobs are sometimes adjusted along the way depending upon specific logging equipment being used at the time.

I agree that slash is good and should be left on a sale area. It has benefits to help regeneration, protection against deer, replace soil nutrients etc. It just needs to be managed so these objectives are met in a timely manner.

The number of short wood operations in quality sawlog stands are increasing here and they are removing and marketing the pulpwood. That is if they want the timber. I don't have an unsold sale to date and many yet to prepare due to landowner wants.



~Ron

L. Wakefield


QuoteTom

snip.

A 10,000 acre co-op could support a small to medium sized sawmill.  All the logs and lumber would be processed locally instead of exported to another area.  

snip

-   Whoee, you guys have been busy while i was away. I went up to Rockland for the EMS conference (got my certification for ambulance operation- squashed a few cones, I did..)

and I come back, and here's this great thread!

   So one of the things that plagues the northern towns here in Maine is multinationals buying and then selling woodlands and also mills. If the mill closes down, a lot of people are SOL. It happens too often.

   As I quote you above, Ron, you are getting me thinking. I don't know if the co-op approach has been tried up here. Granted, your typical mill worker may not be the same as the landowner who can get into a co-op. BUT. Local people have a vested interest in keeping things going. And they've gotten the short end of the stick very, very often. I'll have to ask around. The mills I'm talking about in the north woods here are pulp and paper mills- at least the biggies that I've seen go under. Another thing I honestly don't know the answer to-yet- is how many sawmills specifically operate- or could operate- out of the same area. It's a very different industry.

   I didn't like the 'US/THEM' profile of operations with coalmining down in WV, and I don't much like it here for paper. Have they ever done a coal mine as a co-op? (I suspect that comes under the heading of 'a dumb question'..)

   lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Ron Wenrich

The only co-ops that own mills are out in the Midwest.  Seems to have really caught on in Wisconsin.

In areas that don't have large, industrial woodlands, the industry must depend on the non-industrial woodland owner.  The best way to keep prices low is to keep them fragmented.  And the information coming from professionals gets to be so muddled that landowners do nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing or getting cheated.

But, if woodland owners would band together, they could dictate price (to some extent), mgmt schemes, and general forestry practices.  At a minimum, they could own their own foresters, and save commissions.  Plus there is an advantage to managing in bigger lots.

The community approach to forest mgmt is a win/win for an area.  It can offer a steady stream of fiber, if that is a goal.  Or it can use it in house.  It also offsets the need of having someones demands legislated to an area.

I have yet to see a local govt that is very well informed.  Their legislation is really messed up.  Legislating at the state level does even less good, and legislating from the federal level is the worst.

For more information on community forestry and co-ops, try this link:  http://www.forestrycenter.org/

Of course, you could pay me a modest consulting fee, and I would gladly help you set one up.   :D
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

L. Wakefield

   Thank you much for the reference. I will try to pass it along to SWOAM- the small woodlands owners alliance of Maine- I finally joined them this Oct after thinking about it for 3 years. My forestor had been instrumental in setting it up. I have yet to become active (in what lifetime?...) eh well- got this one life- I sure do use it hard- it's ^full^ tho if I gave up one of my favorite operating systems- procrastination- I could do more ::)

             lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

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