Tally question

[Brucer]

I was away for a couple of days. Thanks, beenthere, for providing the link.

One little point for those who are worried about what is "fair" ...

• A technical definition describes what a term means. As in, one Board Foot is a piece of wood measuring 1 foot long, 1 foot wide, and 1" thick, or the equivalent volume.
• An operational definition describes how we are supposed to measure and calculate something. As in, round thickness up to the nominal thickness, round width up to the nominal width, and round length down to the nearest foot.

A good operational definition eliminates all the questions that might arise if we just measured the wood and did a volume calculation.

• How close do we make the measurement -- to the nearest 1/16", 1/8", or what?
• What happens if the wood shrinks after we measure it?
• What length do we use if the ends aren't cut square?
• And so on.

I've taken to quoting a price per linear foot for my general customers. I'll give a price per board foot to knowledgeable contractors.

[Magicman]

One point to remember when you are custom sawing.  You are not selling a volume of lumber.  You are providing a sawing service and sawing the customer's logs into his specified lumber dimensions.

[moosehunter]

Quote from Tom the Sawyer " Like when a mechanic bills 13 hours in an 8 hour day because they use the Flat Rate Manual and he's "really good."   "

I am by trade a mechanic. I have worked Flat rate, Hourly and commission. Presently I own a garage. I pay my mechanics hourly and charge customers by the "flat Rate" on most jobs.
My question to you is how is flat rate different than sawing by the board foot? If it takes the average mechanic 4 hours to do a clutch and I can do it in 3 am I being dishonest by charging 4? If you can saw 200 bf average an hour on one day but the next day you average 300. You made a lot more $$ the 300 bf average day but you spent the same mount of time as the 200 bf ave. day. Did you over charge the 300 bf client. Of course not. Please don't knock other professionals for doing exactly what you do.

Sorry, off my horse now.
And I do respect everything else in your post!
mh

[Tom the Sawyer]

Moosehunter,

I was explaining how my history as a consumer led to my philosophy for setting my fees.  I've made a number of poor decisions in my life, purchasing a '73 Vega was just one of them (along with the wife I bought it for). 

The timing belt was a 3 hour 'flat rate' job at the dealership.  After the second belt I decided to do it myself.  They had the special tools and I did not, plus I'm not a mechanic.  The first time, while turning pages in the Chilton's manual, it took me 45 minutes.  The second time just under 30.  Did I think that 3 hours at the shop hourly rate for a mechanic with the right tools was excessive, especially since it was done in an hour?  Yes I did but that isn't a condemnation - just a consumer's opinion.

I had used a local welder a couple of times, always got good work at reasonable prices.  I took in my loader bucket which needed the lip repaired.  I also took in the new lip.  When I picked it up a couple of hours later it was $360.  I asked why so much and he said that it was $90 per hour (which I knew).  He said it took 2 hours plus two hours (@ $90) for the guy that turns the dial and hands him the rods.  I changed welders.

You related hourly flat rate to milling by the board foot.  Consider it this way, if you tell me that you think my load of logs will take 7 hours to mill and that you charge $x.xx per hour.  If you come here and do the job which only takes you 4 hours, are you still going to bill me for 7?  If you said it would cost $420 with no mention of an hourly rate that would be one thing but if you quote an hourly rate then it shouldn't be any more than the hours you worked times the hourly rate.   smiley_confused

Its just a personal quirk of mine, when there are more than 8 hours billed in an 8 hour day I ask questions and/or change providers.  Whether you charge by the board foot, by the hour, or by the job; as long as you and the client agree (and understand the definitions) then both sides should be satisfied.   

[moosehunter]

What I find very interesting is that nobody complains when it takes me 12 hours to do a 8 hour flat rate,.. except me, but I quoted 8 I stick to 8. There has to be system so there is consistency in estimating. The welder did not charge you "flat Rate", there is no flat rate for welding. Weather or not he over charged you is between you and him. In your original post you picked on mechanics. I am a mechanic. Just trying to make an honest living. Kinda like you.

[Cedarman]

If you bid a job and it is accepted are you obligated to refund some money if you end up doing it for a lot less than you expected?  In turn should the customer feel obligated to pay you more if you underbid?
For those of you that get free logs, should you feel obligated to sell for less than someone who pays for logs?
Usually the hard feelings come about because both parties did not fully understand the terms of the deal and the terms are what they are.

[Tom the Sawyer]

It was not my intention to cast aspersions on anyone's other current/past/future occupation - I was addressing methods of pricing your work and why I charge the way I do.  It was not recommended or suggested as the way anyone else should do it - just for consideration.   

The 'flat rate manual' method definitely had an influence on my philosophy as did a couple of more methods which I won't mention because I'm not trying to step on toes.   ;)  I was a police officer for 31 years, mostly in traffic enforcement and investigation, but I don't let it ruin my day when someone bad mouths the cops.  Absolutely no offense intended to anyone.   

As I mentioned, and as have several others, the critical thing is that you and the client agree upon, and understand, the method of charging for your work.  Bid, board foot, hourly, by the ton, whatever - it is up to you - communication up front is much easier than justification later down the road.   

[Brucer]

Usually the hard feelings come about because both parties did not fully understand the terms of the deal and the terms are what they are.

Every time one of my customers has had problems with his/her customers, it was because the two parties did not communicate effectively. When you specialize in some kind of trade, you will become intimately familiar with all the standard practices.

I noticed time and again that when there was a problem the contractor would assume the customer was familiar with all the standard practices. The customer, on the other hand, would assume the things would be done the way he or she would do them.