small skidder

[logman81]

I'm thinking about up grading from my tractor to a small older skidder. Looking for a small machine that can maneuver around in the tight woods to do wood lot thinning's and house lots. Would also like one that is reliable and easy to work on and cheap to run and fix when needed. Looking for opinions on brands and models. Will be using it mostly to skid firewood and some saw logs and clear house lots with. After landing the resent 75 acre thinning job it's making me think I need to up grade a little. ???   

[Ron Scott]

You might consider an Iron Mule.

[Frank H.]

Old Treefarmer C4.  Parts available at napa, easy to fix and maintain.  For that matter, any old skidder with a 3 53, 4 speed warner t-18 (junk yard find in 70s trucks) and rockwell rears. 

[lumberjack48]

A C5d  Tree farmer, 353 Detroit, stick shift, Model 20 winch. Don't get one with a Ford motor way under powered. I have worked with TJ's and 440 J D's there good machines, for dollar up keep, easy to work on , you can't beat the  C5d, its a reliable skidder.

[mad murdock]

Garrett Model 10 or Model 15 or 15A. There are a few of them around.  They were the precursor of the CanCar line of Tree Farmers, Garrett invented the Tree Farmer and trademarked the name. They sold it to CanCar in the lat 1960's.  Early C4 is almost the same machine from what I can see.  Parts are easy to get at any autoparts store.

[CX3]

I sure do like a 440 john deere

[cjfrank]

I surely tink you cud fin an old pettybone for lil or not'n and they too have da parts at napa. Me too from up der in does parts of mn. You betcha, don't ya no. I wurk in da voods ovr der.

[logman81]

I'm thinking a c4 tree farmer with the 353 Detroit might be the machine for me. There's a guy near me in Connecticut that is selling a older c4 for $6500 I might just go check it out if he still has it. He says it is in good working condition and the price seems fair if it works like it should. Does any one know or have any specs on these machines.   

[lumberjack48]

A C4 with a 353 was called a pulp wood special, it had the light rear ends , my brother had one. With any of these older machines i would make sure it had the heavy rear ends.
The skidder in the pic had all 3 names on it, Garrett, CanCar, and Tree Farmer, a C4 like the one in the pic would be a find with a 4 cylinder Ford  Industrial gas engine, i could pull 20 cords on 5 to 7 gals. I personally would not buy anything with a Ford Diesel engine.
A older 440 John Deere with a stick shift would be a good find. The only problem i remember were the steel hyd lines, boy were hard to change, they were all changed over to rubber as they broke[ 40 yrs ago ]
Its really hard to buy a older skidder with out buying a money pit, there is so much to look for, motor, clutch, tran, rear ends, winch, frame cracks, steering cylinders, blade cylinders, hyd pump, tires, radiator, ujoints and the blade for cracks, it can get scary and over whelming.
This is why i used to lease with option to buy a skidder before i bought it, i would make sure it was a good one.

   

[logman81]

Are the rockwell rears a must in a small skidder like the c4. What did most of them come with for axles? Are there any specific things to watch out for on the c4 models. What are the specs on the the machine? It is a 1974 machine, what does it weigh?, Model of winch? Where can you get the paint for it? Any info you can be provided this would be my first skidder so I'm trying to learn about them and get as much info before I start looking around so I will know what to look for.

[madmari]

I went through this process in the last year. Started with a tractor and then bought a IH S7 (1968) skidder with a 3-53 and gearmatic 19 for small money. The machine worked good, but really tippy. I found out the hard way that there were serious front axle cracks that had been welded by somebody that should not weld.
   I then bought a Timberjack 230 after scouring it with a magnifying glass for 7 hours. This has a 3-53 and is really nice to work on. Parts are  readily available and the machine is very stable and tough. It's easier to get on and off and did I mention it's tough?
  Never ran a TF c4, but I looked at afew- I still prefer the TJ.
  Best of luck- really check out any machine you look at!

[lumberjack48]

Logman81, one more thing, make sure to check the front cradle bushings, and the pivot bushings, the middle of the skidder, if these are wore out, pretty big repair. 
  Some guys run there equipment right in the ground, my father had a C5d, he ran it 16 yrs never fixed anything. When he retired, that poor old C5, i don't think there was one thing that didn't need work, it was like a dish rag, he sold it for $3500. ,i thought that was to much money for junk.   

[maine tree farmer]

Great postings,

I have a c4 with  Garrett written in weld script under the arch and Can Car on either side of the nose, the transfer case is called a Tree Farmer. I think it's a 1964, and has a 172ci. Ford Diesel.

I've been told it was the first articulating skidder. I remember in 1964 seeing the first front end loader (Payloader?)that articulated, and had everyone excited.

I've always wondered if that concept started with an early Tree Farmer (Can Car )?????

[logman81]

Thanks for all the info keep it coming! Need to know anything and everything I can about the c4. Are the rockwell axles a must for this size skidder? Where can you get paint for it? I like to have my equipment looking good when I take them to jobs. That is if I can find one. What is the average price for a good running c4?

[ga jones]

I have a 1963 tree farmer . Ive pulled some realy big red oak with it 40 inch at the stump. 70 feet (one at a time) but the machine handles it. Granted i dont do long pulls. A few hundred yards. Ive also pulled tree lenght hemlock 24 inch at the stump 3 at a time. Mine is a 353 detroit with 18.4x34 tires And It is a little tipsy..The best thing is to find whats popular in your area .Thats the easyest thing and other people near you can help you figure things out.timberjacks around here but I couldnt pass up the price on my tf.

[lumberjack48]

I worked for a guy that had a 1960 Garrett, it was dam'est looking thing, the back end was all tube frame, it had a Ford gas motor[ 4 cylinder ].
Have you tractor loggers looked at that Farmi, i don't know anything about them, looks pretty slick to me. [ hooks up to the 3 point hitch ]

[logman81]

I've got a fransguard winch on my 40 hp tractor. Very similar to the farmi it works very well for skidding firewood logs and doing thinnings. I saw a Garrett for sale awhile back on the net it had a ford diesel in it and a deere winch cool little skidder. Sounds like the c4 machines can pull some decent wood as long as it has the 353 in it. ;D Love the sound of them I work with a guy who has a clark 664 with the 353.

[Ironwood]

I think you could find something like this Ditch Witch, little Ford diesel, and wayyy cool. I think he wanted $4500 I dunno if hes still got it.

 

[red]

Brave man to stand there while you did Donuts Reid

[mad murdock]

Great postings,

I have a c4 with  Garrett written in weld script under the arch and Can Car on either side of the nose, the transfer case is called a Tree Farmer. I think it's a 1964, and has a 172ci. Ford Diesel.

I've been told it was the first articulating skidder. I remember in 1964 seeing the first front end loader (Payloader?)that articulated, and had everyone excited.

I've always wondered if that concept started with an early Tree Farmer (Can Car )?????

Dwight Garrett of Enumclaw, Washington invented the articulated skidder in 1949, built the model 10 and model 15/15A Tree Farmer into the 1960's and sold the Tree Farmer trade marked name and the design to CanCar. Garrett went on building skidders into the 1980's (model 21, model 30), and continued to support the type selling parts for the machines and helping operators up until last year when the grandson of Dwight Garrett, Don Garrett passed away.  https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,44818.0.html
this is a thread on the subject from a few months back.  http://www.vannattabros.com/skidder.html this webpage gives a concise history of the skidder, with pictures and other info.

[logman81]

That ditch witch is cool but I need a purpose built machine for the woods. Don't want to spend to much time modifying something to make it work. Thanks for the history on the tree farmers very interesting. I would like to know how the c4's perform in the woods. Are they tippy? How much wood can they pull in a turn? Weight? Winch pulling power? Any week points? 

[Ironwood]

I actually looked that thing over pretty good, and it looks fine for woods work, and at $4500, I figured the hoe on the front was worth around $1500-2000 alone. Do what you will, but if I were looking for a small skidder that Ditch Witch would be awsome. There was a 440 right across the yard from it (borrowed one here on property for 3 months once,s o I know the machine) and other than the winch they would be pretty  compareable in the woods. AND big and, parts for the Ditch Witch may be easier and cheaper to find, just look at all the listings people have for older skidder parts, just a thought..........

Ironwood

[lumberjack48]

I ran and owned c4's and c5's for 30 yrs, with Perkins, Ford [diesel & gas], Detroit [ 353 & 453] and the Deutz 5 cylinder air cooled engines .
Winch's, model 8 & 9 Gearmatic, model 19 & 20 Gearmatic and the Tulsa Hyd winch.
I ran the small and the big planetary rear ends, tire's, 16.9x30's. 18.4x34's and 18.4x26's

I never believed in over loading, i always tried to average a cord a every turn and making 4 to 6 turns a hour, with a c4 or the c5. If i had a long pull i would double up my drags.
I don't remember the pulling power on the model 9, but i know it would break a 9/16 mainline, trust me its all the winch you'd ever need. I skidded many thou's of cords with the 9, 19 and the 20 Gearmatic there all a very good winch's, I've rebuild them, a simple winch.
[Tippy]  You do not want 18.4x34's on a c4 it's a accident waiting to happen. I used 16.9x30's on my c4, i never had a problem on steep ground. But its like anything you have to know your machines limits. [ 18.4x26's would be the better pick]
I used c5's with 18.4x34's and the 18.4x26's , a c5 with 18.4x26's road better, pulled better, and was stabler on steep ground
Here's my pick, a c5d with a 353, model 19 or 20 Gearmatic, with 18.4x26 tires, its the best all around, when you get in bigger wood, she'll huff & puff and blow black smoke and head for the landing.
If i wasn't in this wheelchair, I'd go look'in with you, I'd give it the road test.

[logman81]

Thank you so much for the info on the tree farmers lumberjack48. It seems you are the one to talk to when it comes to these skidders. Your right about the winches that's plenty of pulling power for me. I think I'll have to start looking for one, probably a c4 with the 353 and 18.4x26 tires I think the smaller machine would be best. I do mostly thinnings for private land owners and skid firewood for them and my self. What are the difference's between the c4 and c5?

[lumberjack48]

The c5 is all around heavier machine, like i said in a earlier post, a c4 with a 353 was called a pulp wood special. A c4 came with the light rear ends, the c5 has the heavy ones.
A c5 will get around just as good as a c4 in a small area.
The only thing is the braking system, all the TF's i had came with the drum brake, this was a broblem.
The best is to convert this to a disk brake system, i did this to my c5, i got what i needed off a junked S8 International. pretty simple fix.

[logman81]

Maybe the c5 is the better machine because of the heavy axles. But I guess it depends on what your planning to use the skidder for. Thanks for telling me the difference between the two models I'm learning alot. ;D

[lumberjack48]

 If a person could find a little Mt. Logger, i know a guy who has one, it has a 253 Detroit with a Model 9 gerarmatic , it is smaller than a C4, with the same running gear. A really nice little skidder, it would be a find.

[logman81]

I'm not familiar with a mountain logger but it sounds like it might be a little to small for me. I'm looking to increase production a little over my tractor while still being able to get into small areas.

[lumberjack48]

I worked right beside the Mt logger, i seen it pull up to 30 cds a day. It well easily pull a cd every turn, a nice machine. I think he bought it new in 1970.

[barbender]

Who made the mountain logger? I've never seen one either, or a 2-53 Detroit. I bet it was easy on fuel.

[logman81]

Wow that sounds like a nice machine. I have never heard of 2-53 Detroit, Who made the mountain logger? Any pics of one? It definitely out pulls my tractor    

[lumberjack48]

 I'm not sure who built it, i think they were built in Washington St., by Mt. Logger, it was only built a few years. [ maybe Jeff can do some deep research ] if you go to Google under images and type in Mt logger it shows a big one.

Barbender, take a drive up to Squaw Lake and look up Ed Kallio, lives up on the dump road, i think he still has his, if a does maybe its for sale.

A 253 Detroit is like a John Deere 2 cylinder on steroids

[logman81]

Thanks for the info I had a john deere crawler that had the 2 cyl engine.

[logman81]

That is a big one

[lumberjack48]

Mt. Logger built some high power skidders for Mt skidding, i remember seeing a picture of one with 2 exhaust pipes up over the cab.

[logman81]

They look very strong and well made.

[barbender]

Does Ed Kallio haul wood? I know there is one Kallio from Squaw Lake that has a center mount, I deon't remember who he hauls for.

[logman81]

Were can one get that green paint for those Tree farmers.

[lumberjack48]

That's Richard his younger brother, married to my x wife, she owns the Crow Bar.

[lumberjack48]

I would think any parts store that sells paint can mix up a match.

[barbender]

It's a small world lumberjack48.  You are down in Ottertail now? I haven't been in the Crow Bar in many years, since I quit drinking. Actually, it hadn't been open all that long when I used to frequent it. About 14 years ago I suppose. But, I'm supposed to be talking about small skidders. My Pettibone 501 is actually a little large for what I need it for, it snakes around ok but is a bit long. It seems fairly stable, but I don't work it like a real logger. Cutting and skidding 8 cords in a day is a big day for me. It's heavier than I had figured, 17,000# full of fuel. I need another axle under my 14k gooseneck For a guy cutting firewood and small scale stuff, staying with a machine you can tow with a one ton or 3/4 ton pickup makes life a lot easier.

[Frank H.]

The reason I like the rockwell axles on anything is parts are reasonable and easy to find.    I loved my little tree farmer C4, I really don't remember what axles were in it, but it never broke on me.  I shouldnt have sold it.  I bought an old IH S7 with hough axles and the machine is good now, after rebuilding *DanG near everything on it. Also I swapped out the hough axles because of parts availability and expense.  Put in some pr75 Rockwells so i dont have to deal with them again.

[barbender]

My machine has Pettibone axles, I hope I never have a problem with anything on them.

[Ed_K]

Frank H, I'll let you know about the cost of rebuilding rockwell rears,I get the bill on Fri.  .I also had the taylor planataries done.And the 4-53 too  ;) should be a new skidder but I still need 4 new tires  >:( .

[logman81]

Never heard of a taylor skidder?

[Ron Scott]

Taylor's Machine Works in Mississippi built a small skidder called the Tote-A-Load skidder in the late 1960's early 70's, but it disappeared from the market along with the Gafner mini skidder and several others.

[lumberjack48]

I'm not sure how old these listings are, AmericanListed.com, looked like some good buys on skidders.

[tjdub]

Thanks for the info I had a john deere crawler that had the 2 cyl engine.

I use a JD 450 dozer with a winch for a firewood skidder.  It's a bit of a bear to move from job to job, but you can't get any more maneuverable in the woods than that.  It's very similar to a JD 440 skidder (same winch, same motor, etc.)  Just something to consider.

[logman81]

I think I'll stick with a skidder. Don't want to have to worry about throwing a track or two plus a skidder is way faster than a track machine. I have owned a JD 350 good machine but kind of slow for production and they don't have much for ground clearance.

[logging22]

I use timberjacks. Got 3. 208, 225 and a 230. Great skidders. Parts are getting harder to find, but still running. Love the whine of them old Detroits.

[logman81]

Yup love the sound of the Detroit's. Logging22 you got some nice smaller size skidders. ;D How much wood will the 208 pull? A cord?

[barbender]

I need to get a new muffler for my detroit, I don't like the sound of it that much, as in, you shouln't hear it for 4 hours after you shut it off :

[logman81]

A little loud is it. :D

[Ironwood]

Some of the Detroit's I heard could deafen you thru ear plugs AND ear muffs even standing in the woods not far away, not to mention if you were driving them.

Ironwood

[logman81]

Yup they can be a little loud if they don't have a good muffler.

[barbender]

That's mine, I wear muffs and plugs and it's still too much. Anyone got any advice for the right muffler for a detroit? I've heard a few that were actually not loud at all, I need to find out what kind of muffler they were using. I think mine may be an empty can :(

[lumberjack48]

I got one from Napa in Grand Rapids that was Detroit rated, for half the money everybody else wanted. You have to be care full, to much back presser , will burn the valves, to much heat back up, can crack the head to.

A  Detroit sucks & blows, i love them

[barbender]

I'll check that out, Lumberjack48. It doesn't help that the exhaust exits behind the cab about a foot from your ear.

[lumberjack48]

I don't know it you have purchased a machine yet, there's a 1967 c4 tf at nh.craigslist.org, for 5000. or make offer

[logman81]

I have not purchased a skidder yet I'm waiting to finish this first part of the job I'm on so I'll have some $$ to spend on one. I checked that c4 skidder out on craigslist it might be what I'm looking for. What do you think about it? It's got the ford motor in it I heard that motor is a little underpowered for that machine. Let me know what you think. Its listed on NH craigslist for those who want to look at it and give input on it.

[Ed_K]

I haven't heard mine run yet,it has a new muffler  8).But one day awhile back my wife called and said she knew I got it running.I was 4miles away crosscountry .I had to wear earplugs and muffs when I ran it last.A truck glasspack doesn't work  ;D .
My Taylor is a 1972 it's about the same pull as a JD540.

[barbender]

A truck glasspack doesn't work  ;D .

So much for that idea, I was going to try it

[logman81]

Still waiting for input on what you all think about the 1967 c4 tree farmer on NH craigslist. Let me know what you think about it the price seems fair to me but not to keen on the ford motor.

[lumberjack48]

Hers a buy , Pettibone log skidder [Richford] craigslist, motor?

[lumberjack48]

A c4 with the ford gas is nice machine, i ran a 1967 c4 with Perkins, didn't pull any more wood then my gas job, same with the small Ford diesel.
A friend of mine had a TJ with a Ford gas engine, he put a 1000 cords a month on the landing.
I don't know what kind of shape that 67, c4 is in, i think its a little to much money, but i haven't looked at it, paint don't make them run.
What i liked about the gas motor there are no starting issues.
The c4 at Troy NH is a real nice , clean looking machine [ motor? ]

There should be some good buys this spring, 15th of Mar. isn't very far away.

[treefarmer87]

it looks ok, looks kinda like mine. my old loader had a 4 cylinder ford power unit-it was a good fuel efficent motor. if it was closer to me i would buy it and run it along with my c5.

[logman81]

Thanks for the input on the skidder I'm thinking of contacting him to see if he still has it. I think I'll go take a look at it in a week or two. It's only about two hours from me so it's a short drive for me. I was thinking of offering him $4,00 for it since it needs some work plus it will have to be trucked home. The ford diesel that is in it should be easy to get parts for but not sure on rest of machine.

[treefarmer87]

u can get all the parts at napa

[logman81]

Napa I never thought that you could get parts for a skidder at Napa sweet! ;D I checked out that pettibone in Richford thats a unique machine I don't think it is articulated though, but a rare machine indeed.

[treefarmer87]

yep, i can get all my parts like hoses,fluids,detriot parts,etc at napa. i have even gotten hydralic parts at tractor supply.

[logman81]

Would this skidder that I'm thinking about going to look at be a can car tree farmer skidder? What are some of the problem areas besides the drum brakes on these machine I'm new to these skidders. Where can you get center pins and bushings for it if it needed them?

[treefarmer87]

the napa near where i live told me they could make them, plus there is a welding shop next door. mine has a 353 detriot. i have never had any trouble with mine. it has been a good skidder ;)

[lumberjack48]

 Yes its a CanCar, brakes small issue , any machine shop can make pins and bushings.

The C5 at Ossipee, NH , that's a nice looking horse, hard to find one that nice.

[logman81]

That's what I thought, I guess I could get by with the drum brakes as long as they worked. Have lots of machine shops around here plus I have a friend that works at one and I'm not to bad of a metal fabricator myself. That is a great c5 but way out of my price range.

[lumberjack48]

The drum works good if you get rid of warn parts and Leakey oil seals,  like anything it has to be kept up, easy to work on.

[logman81]

Thanks for the info lumberjack48 you know a lot about the old tree farmers. Is there anything else to consider when I go to look at a tree farmer?

[Ed_K]

I got my center pins and bushings at my car parts store.When you look the c4 over,have someone put down pressure on the blade and watch the center.If the the front and back plates move back and forth it may need the bushings.If they do make sure you do it on a concrete floor w/rolling jacks.I will never try it again in the bush.

[logman81]

Thanks for the tip Ed_k. If it needed them and I can't find them at a parts store and I have to make them what type of metal should they be made of?

[Ed_K]

Their made with hardened steel,4140 I think.I would think your parts guy can find them.We had a bottom # and part of the top piece# and he got them for me.Their not cheap  :(.

[Ed_K]

Frank H, the rockwell baskets ended up around $1200.each.The bill for the whole rebuild was $10764.77  .This was both rears, four planataries & seals,4-53 w/new head,cam shaft,injectors,2rods and pistons,4 sleaves,main & rod bearings, muffler,brake lock, and 106 hrs labor @ $65.
And I've already found out the new temp gage is bad,Can't put your hand on the head if the gage says 245 degs :( .Four new tires and its brand new.but tires will have to wait.

[barbender]

Wow, Ed! That is some coin, she'll be new!

[lumberjack48]

That's what i did, rebuilt what i had, no sense buying somebody else's problems

Good job Ed

[logman81]

That Taylor skidder should serve you well now that it is all rebuilt!

[barbender]

That's the thing with rebuilding something- you know exactly what you're dealing with. Kind of like helping an old friend along

[logman81]

I don't mind getting a skidder that needs a little fixing. I'm pretty good with fixing things I've rebuilt several machines from the ground up, Like Deere 40 crawler from the ground up, Oliver cleat track, David brown tractor and a Brush bandit 200+ chipper. So if I can get one for the right price and needs a little work that's fine. I actually enjoy working on them because you get to know the machine and how it ticks.  

[lumberjack48]

Logman81 are you still going to look at the one in Troy ?

[logman81]

Ya I trying to get some free time on a weekend to go look at it.

[logman81]

The one in troy is not the same skidder, The one I was interested in was only $5 grand and within my price range. The one in troy is probably a nice machine but out of my range don't wont to have to work that hard to get that kind of return back. :D

[Frank H.]

The pr75 Rockwells I bought from PowerTransmission in Duluth MN are checked out and rebuilt.  I've been happy with them.  The price was right.  I hope I don't have  to go thru this old girl again, but, except for the motor, everything else is fixed/rebuilt/rebushed/or checked out.   Sounds like EdK went even farther than I did.  However a new skidder would be lots more than that, so I guess its money well spent.

[Ed_K]

It was a shock at first,but I originally paid $6300. 11 yrs ago and fixed the winch to go to work,so it dosen't owe me anything.I just wish I had put 100 a month away for this rebuild.