The Forestry Forum

Hello Gentlemen.
 
While a new member, I have been on the board many times reading threads on homemade sawmills. I am about to pull the trigger on building one myself, but I need wisdom to I minimize costly errors.
 
Seeking education in "sound" bandsaw mill design and construction.
 
Is there a book, booklet, build thread, set of plans that teach the why and options, or any other media that would help me to avoid errors in the build and to understand design options and pros/cons of the different options. To get smart, so I do not make a boat anchor, or spend several hundred hours in reading and distilling the pure gold and silver from the dross.
  
I am planning on building a portable mill with the production capability of something on the magnitude of a TimberKing 2000 or Woodmizer LT40 with all the hydraulics or electric powered feed, etc.. but not the computer control... yet.


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I do not need it to look sophisticated or pretty. It can look like a dying duck, but it has to perform with close to the corresponding speed and dependability.
 
Learning K-I-S-S (simple) techniques is very appealing too, as some designed elements are very impressive, but "complicated" and others appear to  work just as well, but are very simple and this is most desirable to me. Spending 8 hours building a powered up/down or chain log turner is much more appealing than a week, or more, on the same section.
 
I have access to many free items such as steel, hydraulic parts, etc, etc...  I will buy items used, cannibalize a mobility scooter as needed or anything that will save my out of pocket costs. I will trade some of my guns/ammo/etc.. for an engine, band wheels, etc.. I plan to make parts work that I can get for free or as close as possible as I have plenty of time, but pockets are not deep.... The mill must perform.  I will make decisions as I plan as to where/when to spend vs sweat more.
 
I have access to a fairly well equipped welding/fabrication shop with welders, saws, iron worker, and limited access to a Bridgeport sized  mill and lathe.
 
I have been reading threads and watching videos on homemade sawmills for several years off and on. I have not seen one yet that is a production machine and most require mining to find gold, silver,  and gems of info to get educated. I have not seen "Tips, best build practices, or the common errors and how to avoid, etc.."
 
I just learned yesterday how to use cross strings to make the carriage flat for example. This was something I could see as a problem. I am concerned about those area I cannot see potential problems.
 
How many men have watched a bunch of videos and read a bunch of threads and went at it, only to spend so many hours and result in a big boat anchor because of one or two significant errors?  Thus my appeal for a pathway to education that is more streamlined than  the path I have piddled in for several years.
 
Also, more ignorance means not knowing where tolerances are "very critical" for excellent results and where an 1/8" is not a big deal. This can turn a few week project into a several month project because of over engineering.
 
Use: My children and I will use the mill for income and wood to build our houses and shop on our newly acquired land where we currently live in our camper. We have plenty of big pines and several acres of mature hardwoods. Manual mill is not an option as my body is broken somewhat from my previous career, so I need a machine that does  the heavy lifting. We happen to have a skidsteer we purchased to develop our property and it has a very HD grapple that easily lifts 3000lb logs, so log handling on our land is handled easily enough.
 
Well, that was a lot of wind on my part gents. What say ye? Where is the tips of design booklet, or the right thread(s), or?
 
Thank you for your wisdom.

Welcome MickeySP!

I have not built a Bandsaw mill but have been looking at many factory made and DIY's from what I can gather for a heavy duty mill you need heavy duty parts and steel.

Take a look at the Cook's Saw Mfg. web site there is lots of info to be gleaned from there, also look at their online store section for info on band wheel size and minimum shaft size etc.

To avoid the "don't tell me - show me" dilemma, the most obvious approach would be to copy the mill of your choice.  the engineering has already been done for you and the design is proven, so all you have to do is put your fabrication skills to work & get 'er done.

Youtube search Matt Cremona bandsaw build. 
He built an electric powered stationary mill with a huge (67") cut width. I bought his plans and will be tweaking it a bit for a diesel powered mill, but with the same cut width. 

He used parts from cooks saw and and a few other places and fabbed the rest himself. 

For a second i thought i was reading some post i forgot ever making.  Im building junk, live in a camper and am wearing out too. And log with a skidsteer. 

Anyhow, one tidbit i can tell you on any cutting or milling machine is mass.  Whether its a mill, lathe, bandsaw, whatever.  A dainty machine can make a nice dainty pass.  Whe  you start ramming wood or metal through and adding horsepower to cut it, you need to be adding mass to the tool, the tool holder, the framework, the base.  If you look at commercial band mills from 50yrs ago and compare to current band mills.. Other than vertical vs horizontal, the biggest difference youll note is physical size and mass.   No different then a tractor, dozer or excavator really.  Wanna cut more dirt, you just need more horsepower and more mass.

Welcome to the Forum.  Where are you located?  I hear you and can greatly appreciate your desire to build a mill, I looked really hard at doing that, but came to realize that it was not going to be a quick process and in the end what was I really going to have?  I can also appreciate the beat up body issue, sawing is hard, it's even harder when you are manual.  

What is the budget you think you can build an accurate, production mill for?  

You can learn a lot about sawing while producing lumber for your house, if you are willing to accept the learning curve issues that will come with learning to be a sawyer.  If you want to saw lumber to generate income you will have to learn to saw quality lumber, all of this takes time, and time is money. 

I guess what I am getting at, without trying to discourage your idea, is that a lot of really smart and talented folks have spent many, many, hours solving the riddle of building a quality, production, sawmill, and they have sold plenty of them for many years.  A depressing number of which sit in dusty old barns, out in a pasture with shrubs and trees growing up around them, and in any number of sales yards.  Many have been attacked by the demons of time, lack of half decent maintenance, wire chewing mice, and UV rays on hydraulic hoses.  The good news is that these demons can be exorcised from a mill with a little elbow grease and by posting questions here on the Forestry Forum.  There are deals out there to be had, quite a few members have successfully gone down that exact same road.  

You have a skid steer and logs - can you sell some to generate some cash which can be used to purchase a mill that needs some TLC?  Can you hire skid steer work as a way to generate cash?  Can you trade logs to another mill owner for custom sawing at the same time so you have material to build your house?  At least this way you would be making progress on that project at the same time.

One other thought is a decent, used manual mill that you buy right, knowing that it is not going to be around for very long.  The ones that are not abused hold their value, and often sell for almost as much if not more than you paid for it.  It gives you the chance to begin to learn to saw, it gets you house lumber, and nothing says you can't begin to sell some off of it. 

Like I said, when I was first looking around at mills I was convinced I would just build one, then decided a manual mill was the way to go, fortunately I was talked into buying a hydraulic model.  Found a good, used, LT35.  It's not the biggest one, and not the fastest one out there, but it was not the most expensive one either.  

It's really easy to set expectations / goals for a project, keeping to those can be a different matter especially when it is a new venture.  From what you have described I would look around at multiple options and really explore the ups and downs of each before committing to one path.  

Sage words of advise, nothing is ever too straight,  square, level, plumb, or accurate. EVER. 

Other than that bigger is almost always better, get the biggest engine and bandwheels you can afford (diesel or electric and crowned steel are best, don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise). 4 post is easier to build,  but a cantilever is a little more flexible to get around knots and such. 

The track the head rolls on should be replaceable,  and claw turners are crap. Hyd feed and up/down are the only way to go.

Bed frames should be as heavy as your billfold can stand, log bunks must have a replaceable wear surface.  Backstops should be of the vertical persuasion and adjustable in all 4 directions. Chain turners are the absolute only way to go, the only people that don't like em are the ones that ain't used one. 

In my opinion, 35hp diesel or 20hp 3ph and 8gpm hyd flow is the minimum. 

Look up @kbeitz did a great build. http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=82853.msg1264270#msg1264270 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=82853.msg1264270#msg1264270)

One of the best described and explained ones on this website.

there is a guy that goes by the name of Texas Ben that has a set of plans on EBay that are good plans they are easy to follow and make adjustment to fit your needs. He has a YouTube channel that show his mill in operation there is a few on here that used his plans. I used them to build my mill. It will cut accurate I added power to the head to move it up and down and for power feed. If you have to buy most of the metal form my own experience you can buy the LT15 for about the price of  metal and parts. But building it yourself is a rewarding experience. I found this sight after I built mine and made a lot of mistakes. There is a thread here that talks about different mod on sawmills read it then read it again you before you build. It will save you a lot of time and make your mill easier to use. Best to you on your build.

I was looking at buying a cheap sawmill. but all the ones I looked at all had at least 1 feature I really liked. none of them had all the features I wanted. I chose to build my own. its still not quite done but I forced myself to step away from it so I wouldn't just try to cram finishing it and make a ton of bad mistakes. 

one of my biggest mistakes I made was not actually doing any milling before deciding to build my mill. Now that I am using it I am finding a ton of things I would have done different. But alas, when all else fails I sell V1.0 and build V2.0 building it is half the fun :)

I do think that hydraulics or electrics for log handling would be something worth investing in. I did build the mill with the intention of adding it one day.

here is my build thread. I am happy to answer any questions.
Crusarius' sawmill build - started with Linn Lumber basic kit in Sawmills and Milling (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=97853.msg1511008#msg1511008)

The build thread is not up to date. I am planning on fixing that eventually. just no idea when I may get to doing that.

Welcome, MikeySP!

Well, since you cannot find a "best practices" thread on building a mill, I'd suggest you start one!  What others have done is you start a list on the first post.  Then, go back and edit/add to it as others make comments.  Then a new reader only has to read the first post.

From my build, what I've learned - I got lucky on my first set of track (16').  I welded it up and it came out true.  My last section has a heat-induced sag in the middle as the track contracted as it cooled.  Its only about 1/8" but annoying!  So my first suggestion would be to bolt the track together.  So long as you don't drop a log on the track, you should be good.  My second suggestion is to NOT make your own blade guide rollers.  Just buy Cook's.  Since you have the tools, make your own adjustable mounts.  Third, make it bigger then you think you need.  I can hold a 42" diameter log on my bed and can cut a full 32" wide slab.  Should have made it bigger ;)

Another factor you need to consider in your plans is whether you can legally use lumber you've sawn to build the structures you plan to build. Many (most) areas have adopted building codes that require the use of lumber that has been graded for structural use by certified inspectors... You should investigate, including checking with your local building inspection agencies...

Good Luck!

Herb

Gentlemen, you have something very special with this forum. I have never had so many, so helpful responses on any of the several forums I have visited for help over the years.  I actually cringed a little, joining the forum and saying "help me" as I thought I hadn't given anything, so the help may be very thin. To the contrary, I am blown away and genuinely am very grateful to your pity on my ignorance and to be part of this group. I retired from Special Forces and after getting hurt contracting, we started a coffee roasting company, but shut it down to move. I am looking at some options, but don't think I can fund reopening the roasterie for a year or two (Government regs cost a lot). The sawmill might be a good bridge to cross the gap. I have much in place to launch this build. I am trying to think through all your responses and recommend reads. I am

I had not realized the importance of mass/weight. Makes total sense after hearing it.

1. I had watched Matthew Cremona's videos on construction, and it was very good, but since I wanted a portable, hydraulic, I was hoping to see someone make homemade TK2000 style copy.
2. As for copying an actual mill. That would be awesome if I could find a local sawyer with a TK2000-2500 or an equivalent that I could go to with tape measure, caliper, sketchpad, and camera. For example, when looking at the TK mill, I would not even know the width of the rails looking at a pic and it is not in their specs. I wrote them and they told me, but surely they are trying to make a living and are not there to answer all my questions on copying their mill.
3. Mike_Belben, are you my long lost twin :) BTW, we are in Middle TN too (Centerville). I just found the profile page and updated it.
4. As to my budget, I hope to do a serious machine for under $2K. Factors: I will probably not have to buy any steel, will get an engine for nothing or in trade, fasteners, brackets, hydraulic pump, motors, valves, for free along with a lot of small stuff. I will probably have to spring for band wheels, clutch, pully's, blade, and other assorted stuff. This does not include sharpening tool, blade set, and other assorted support stuff.
5. I will read all the Cook's stuff. I had read 3 or 4 of their articles, but they are not all easy to find, so I missed them.
6. I will need to learn fast to do quality cutting, even if it means low board footage initially, as I need to augment my military pension.
7. Southside logger, I am grateful for your reality check and challenge to think it through. I do not want regrets.
8. JB Griffin, we just moved from your area (Calico Rock, AR). That is an awesome elevator class on the overall picture. Noted!!!
9. Waynorthmountie, I had actually seen that thread, but I did not think it a good fit initially, but will now read through it. Thank you for the tip.
10. While I am glad to learn about fabricating ( I love engineering stuff), but I do not have time for building for experience sake. I am only planning to make one if I can do it a LOT cheaper than a used machine with all the hydraulics. Manual machine is out of the question, unless it is buying a REALLY cheap one that I can add the hydraulics to.
11. I think I will weld the carriage for speed and ease of construction. I also really want to see how tight I can keep it by going easy on the heat build up. I hope I do not mess it up. I may use some long pipe clamps and other jigging to aid me. The Matt Cremona video welding his frame was pretty good actually.
12. PC Urban Sawyer, excellent point. you are correct on code issues in certain areas and codes on usable lumber. In my county (Hickman, TN) house structural (framing) must be stamped. However, detached barns, garages, and all the trim, siding, etc... can be non-stamped. I will indeed put together a solar kiln and dry some for where it is needed. For my shop, I found some free truss designs online for long spans, so I will use these on my shop building.

Thank you all again... VERY much. Amazing!

-Mike

It does not need to be heavy to be strong. Proper geometry goes a very long ways.

Crusarias, I think the weight/mass was for plowing through the wood, meaning more BD FT capability? Actually, I was surprised to see how heavy a LT40 or TK2000 are. about 7K pounds if I remember. Thoughts?

had no idea those were so heavy. well the timberking doesn't surprise me but the LT40 does.

You are right, just checked:
LT40 - 3900 lbs
TK2000 -4600lbs
TK2500 - 6400lbs
LT70 - 4590lbs

I am at loss where I got my weight idea. May have been my first inspiration TK2500?

Timberking likes to hmm well I call it overbuild but some ppl call it just right and others still call it not enough :)

I still stand by my statement "using proper geometry you can build a lighter and stronger machine".

I do like the timberking mills.

Crusarius, I am intrigued by your position. Looks like the LT does it. I may need to get smarter somehow on this concept. This is the sort of question I need to find the answer to. Someone mentioned copting a machine, but without getting my hands on a  smart built machine with caliper, tape measure, I am left to learning engineering and having to reinvent. When it comes to good designs, what is one or a few that you think are well designed, with geometry in mind? Thank.

They all have their strong points (no pun intended). Every one of them have something worth copying.

One of the things I did for my bed was instead of going nuts and doing a 4x4x.250 wall tubing or something crazy heavy I used a 2x6x.188 wall. stronger cross section vs square. and also quite a bit lighter.

a bunch of the manufacturers use angle iron to build the bed. Angle is heavy and does not provide much torsional rigidity (it twists easy) Thats the reason I went with the 2x6. I can put 1 trailer jack down on the corner of my 24' long trailer and lift the entire trailer with very little deflection. I did put 8 trailer jacks on trailer so the max distance between them is about 5'.


4x4x.25 wall weighs 12.212 pounds per foot.
2x6x.25 wall weighs 12.212 pounds per foot.
2x6x.188 wall weighs 9.444 pounds per foot.

Thats a difference of 2.78 pounds per foot. To me that sounds like a lot. especially when I have at least 75' of tubing in just the trailer.

so the .25 wall weighs roughly 915.9 pounds for my trailer
the .188 wall 708.3 pounds. 
207.6 pounds lighter.


I may have gotten off on a tangent there but in the end after all the re engineering and re configuring time and money spent I got a look at the Woodmizer LT15 wide. that is the one I want to copy. I am actually planning on contacting woodmizer to get some parts to put on mine.

We may be twins.  I was in the marines, i sold my business to up and move, and i like coffee with my daily junk to build today so i can get out of the camper life list.  


Ill try to get a post and some pics up for you later tonight.  Im just a phase ahead of you in the curve right now, running a basic chainsaw slabbing track rig to learn the ropes and ponder my big sawmill build.  All diesely and hydraulic-ee and such.  If youre ever on your way to knoxville PM me and stop by. im 3hrs east, few minutes off 40. 

Structural shapes are important and i have some commentary on where i went wrong with that.  Clamps too. 

Crusarius, 200 lbs weight savings is nothing to laugh at. As I consider this, I will be driven partially by what I have available. I happen to have some 3x3x.1875 @ 6.87lb per foot. I thought I could stitch weld two together and have a 3x6 tube. It will be 13.75lb per ft though.  I do have some .125 stock, but it would have to be half and half. The .125 thickness is 4.75lbs per square foot, so the total would be 11.63lb per square foot. 

mike_belben thanks for the invite. I look forward to hearing about your lessons learned. Semper Fi!

that is definitely a big challenge. I had a bunch of stuff laying around I could have used but I ended up buying a bunch of new stuff to get the materials I really wanted to use instead of always wishing I had just done it to begin with.

The other lesson learned that I had that I need to start a new thread on is actual cost to build the sawmill. Its not just the cost of the materials (ignore labor its a labor of love) but in order to actually mill logs I needed to get, Blades, Cant hook, Metal detector, Moisture meter, Chainsaw, PPE. I am sure there is a bunch of other stuff. Oh yea, I ended up building a set of forks for my tractor so I could move the pieces of the mill around as they got to heavy to man handle. 

It all adds up. I had a budget to stay under and I did very well building the mill. Unfortunately with all the other items I needed to buy to use my mill it put me over my total budget.

Noted. Fortunately, I have a decent chainsaw, a pretty stout skidsteer with very heavy duty grapple. Picked up a bunch of 24" 20-30ft pine logs I felled a couple months ago. I have some forks too, but need to make a quicktach for it. Have the PPE also. I will need the blades, and the ability to sharpen/set teethe I imagine. I started your thread and am a few pages through it so far. Maybe you will answer this in the thread, but why do you want to build the LT15 copy? If this is answered in the thread, disregard, I will find out.

I am on a VERY low budget, so using the stuff I can get free, or very cheap will be a priority, as long as it will not effect performance. My truck can haul a tank, but it has to cut like it should and be easy to set up and use.

How heavy you build it depends on how portable you need it to be, portable or just movable.  

Also as Crusarius stated, heavy don't always equal stout. And what I should have said is build it STOUT. 

Are you lookin to build a walk along or remote console mill?

MikeySP,Thank You for serving our country.
Welcome to the forum.
I have a Thomas mill. I had them build it so I could cut a 20 foot log. I never have yet. But little did I know how much easier it is to load a 16 foot log onto a mill that is set up to cut 20 feet. The mill gives me four feet to play with,not 6 inches. It also allows me to get the head out of the way too. Just a thought.

Cfarm is absolutely right about the length. I made mine 24' with the expectation of doing 20' cuts eventually. The truth was the steel came in 24's lengths so I decided to keep them that length. But I also did not want to limit myself.

as for why I want to build the LT15 wide copy, every time I have played with one it felt amazing. everything moved real smooth, had a nice wide cut that my mill will eventually get modified to. from what I could see the lt15 wide should be easy to adjust for true. My biggest complaint with it is the cheezy bed they use. but they were intended to be lightweight and portable but they do not offer a trailer package for it. I would love to buy just the head and carriage and build the rest.

I have added the extra length for log space to my notes.

Crusarius, I am indeed intrigued by your commentary about the LT15 being so smooth. What seems to be the key? Is this more because you have a manual w mill and would be null if it were a power feed, power raise lower? What seems to be the key from your perspective? This may unlock some design philosophy. 

they have a gas charged cylinder in the mast to assist with raising the head. the crank is very easy to turn and locks in I think at 1/4" increments. it rolls on the track effortlessly.

All items mine needs work on :) I do have power raise lower but with the acme threaded rod it takes alot to raise it. I think I am going to try to add a garage door spring and see if that helps.

it is still a cantilever head design with 4 post carriage. on my carriage I did 2 post and I think that was a mistake. I feel I get twisting in the carriage making it harder to push. Also my guides are metal sleeves on metal masts so the bearing used on the LT15 roll so much nicer and hold it tight where mine is sloppy and does wiggle around. it does not seem to effect the cut though.

I may think of other things as the day goes on.

Well, it turned out I have two friends from Church that own substantial sawmills: A 15-20 year old Cooks AC-36 w/50hp perkins diesel and another with older LT40HD. 

I just visited the Cooks owner and spent an hour to discuss and take a ton of photos for analysis. 

I knew they owned mills, but because they didn't make any money with them, I assumed they were little push mills. The Cooks owner said he couldn't compete with the local mennonite or ammish sawyers who will saw if you bring logs for about .20 a BD FT. I asked if he could do 2000 BD FT a day and he said no problem, but that stuff breaks pretty regularly from neglect and being weather beaten for so many years, especially hydraulic hoses. He also said he doesn't have the business sense side. Doesn't market, etc...

The machine is pretty serious, but man that thing had a ton of hydraulic hoses. I wonder who makes a more simplistic designed mill and still has the capability?  I plan to look at the LT40HD, but the owner was at the Cooks Owner's house working. 

you can get electric hydraulic pumps and place them at each location but that will get very costly. Would still need short hoses.

I would think just finding a way to run the hydraulic lines so they are out of the weather would improve their lifespan exponentially. can also run hard piping to fixed items with short rubber hose to connect them.

hmm keep giving myself ideas :)

Quote from: MikeySP on October 04, 2018, 02:27:54 PMWell, it turned out I have two friends from Church that own substantial sawmills

Do either of them sound like they want to sell?  Maybe that would be the easier route - use their mill as a base to improve upon from all the ideas here!

The first thing I would do is decide what length  blade you want to use. Then pick out the size wheels you want to use. With those items layed out on your garage floor you can now start designing.
Very easy and cost efficient
Sketch up a plan with measurements and just do it.

That is significant competition at a bottom dollar price point. You really need to consider that in your plan. 

Perhaps there is a market in drying and planning wood if nobody is doing that in the area. 

Will YOU be able to saw logs to lumber for $.20 a board foot? (and don't cheat and say your labor is free...) If the answer is no, you really need to reconsider your business model and get the Amish to saw for you at those prices...

Herb

Go meet the amish, tell them youre going to make a go of the sawing business and dont want to compete with them in any way.  Ask what their specialty is, so you can avoid it, and what they refuse to do, so you can go after it.  

Theyll appreciate you being a straight shooter and may be a help in the future.  You can each refer customers to the other.  I have never had anyone give me a bad response to this sort of inquiry.  

Much to consider. I have been thinking what I can do differently. Also at the .20 rate, that is you bringing the logs to him. Still cheap.

I did read the entire 50 page thread by @kbeitz  and his build. That man knows how stuff works.  While not the machine I want to build, it was interesting. http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=82853.msg1264270#msg1264270 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=82853.msg1264270#msg1264270)

The guy with AC36 is planning to sell it in a couple months after his house is finished. $23K. I will not even countenance spending that, though that perkins 50HP diesel sure is nice. 

I am looking forward to seeing the older LT40HD and how that cantelever works as well as the apparent lack of a million hydraulic hoses. 

Quote from: MikeySP on October 06, 2018, 05:54:46 AMthe apparent lack of a million hydraulic hoses.

It has hoses and wires and electric motors and switches...... there is no free lunch. If you want to stand over here and have things happen over there it going to have something.

I understand, just looking for the most simple solutions. Budget and time to fabricate are huge factors for me.  

I figured you did, Pardon me if I sounded abrupt it was not my intention.

Quote from: Hilltop366 on October 06, 2018, 08:38:59 AM

Quote from: MikeySP on October 06, 2018, 05:54:46 AMthe apparent lack of a million hydraulic hoses.

It has hoses and wires and electric motors and switches...... there is no free lunch. If you want to stand over here and have things happen over there it going to have something.

Oh does it ever, and you forgot the best part,.............  proprietary circut boards and other things that no local store will ever have and enough wire to wire a small house.

I can go to town and get most any hyd hose fixed and be back in a hour or two, not so with said electrical stuff.

Plus hyd are WAY easier for me to troubleshoot than angry pixies.

JB Griffin, I like your pointed comments. I have made note of every comment you have made in my keep for later file. Very practical and thoughtful. Now if I do use electrical anything (Feed, up/down, etc..) it would be non propriatory. It would be cannibalizing another technology such as a mobility scooter, etc... so that would not necessarily be a problem. However, if I have hydraulics for my log turner for example, I am already set with a pump and hydraulic system. Adding another valve, lines, and motor is not much more. Yet it seems woodmizer does mix and match. Not sure why?? How do you control height settings with hydraulics? For example, if I want 1" boards, do I have to eyeball it, or is there a auto stop feature when the blade gets to the correct down position? Seems having an auto stop feature would make for some great consistency and speed.

Thanks. 

-Mike

Quote from: MikeySP on October 09, 2018, 10:53:28 PMHow do you control height settings with hydraulics? For example, if I want 1" boards, do I have to eyeball it, or is there a auto stop feature when the blade gets to the correct down position? Seems having an auto stop feature would make for some great consistency and speed.

Thanks.

-Mike

similar way the accuset sys works, sending a signal to the electric motor to stop at "X" height, the same signal could be sent to an electric solenoid to close the hydraulic valve, as long as you are not over riding the solenoid by holding down on the lever. you would have to figure out HOW to build the resistor rod and write the code for the sensor to read the resistance along the length of the rod. we use something similar in our fuel cells on the chinook. we have thermistor and a signal processor that reads the changes in fuel  "pressure" against the resistor tube. we have a similar function for our internal tank to read water level by elec resistance along the rod as the metal float moves up or down the rod, changing the resistance and the processor converts the elec resistance into "X" gallons of water. 

Mike -

The measuring of the 1" - or whatever thickness you want - board can be done with an encoder.  Basically it counts the number of revolutions a known diameter wheel makes as the head travels up and down, and it converts that into a distance traveled as the encoder knows the circumference of the wheel.  There is another way that uses a rod and ring arrangement but for the life of me I can't remember what those are called as it's been at least a decade since I last was around one.  

Either system will communicate the value it has generated from traveling back to a PLC which will cut off the driving motor when the value you have entered is reached - weather that be by closing an electric over hydraulic valve or by opening a relay which cuts out an electric motor.  This is what a "set works" does.  Without that feature yes you need to read a scale and indicator of some sort and stop at the desired height change.     

Thanks Charles - you explained what I was fumbling around to try and say, guess we posted at about the same time.  

I forgot about solenoid controlled hydraulic valves. :) Thank you both for chiming in and helping me understand that. To your knowledge, has anyone done a thread of a DIY version of this with details?

I dunno if you are familiar with arduino or not. But that has lots of capability. one of these days I will make an arduino setworks for my mill. It would be nice to be able to set a home position and tell it to go there while I go load the next log. and then tell it I want to cut 5/4 and hit go. Let it move down 5/4 then make my cut and repeat.

Hear is one Arduino Setworks (with video!) (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=69216.msg1093944#msg1093944)

Do not discount air power especially if you are stationary.  Commercial mills seem to use air for quite a bit of setwork function.  You can make an air cylinder do just about anything you want with the controls that are available today using pilot valves, pressure valving, speed controlled mufflers and so forth.   SMC makes anything you can imagine and its cheap on ebay from MRO used surplus vendors.  Plus no hydraulic lines, just vinyl tubing and pushlocks, change them out in two seconds.  

Air motors do exist but are pretty hungry for air and not terribly strong.  I think a 24vdc wheelchair motor is a more efficient choice there.   To use air in a mobile application off the mill,  york 210 AC compressor clutch and old propane tank is plenty to run cylinders for raising backstops, clamping logs, raising a head to clear log for carriage return. The cool thing is you can just keep adding more and more features.. The supply fluid is just vented out to atmosphere so there is no need for worrying about valve center or return lines or cooling or filtration.   Air can be run to an air over hydraulic but theyre a bit hungry too, though it would work for a turner i think.   de-sta-co made some of the best air over hydraulic pumps, very simple.  Now the chinese jacks all have that option.

Chinese ATV winches and reversing contactors is another option.  Surplus center had the contactors pretty cheap.  It wouldnt be hard to put a capstan drum on your cardiage and have a cable tensioned down the bed with adjustable spring loaded tension.  You want slippage when things collide.  A CNC crash is quite a sight but i wouldnt wanna foot the bill.

For stationary or if youll be using a generator on a mobile, dayton made very good 90vdc reversible motors with fwd N reverse and infinitely variable speed control. Theyre 110AC plug in jobs. We had quite a few old tapping heads built from these. The chinese make cheap linear rails and bearings and ball screws now, easy to find.  Hiwin is a common cheap brand,  THK, thompson and SKF are good ones. "Linear stage" is a good search term too for finding all sorts of tagged keyworded parts cheap.

I dont think the great outdoors is a good place for servos, stepper motors, drives, encoders, proxes etc.  Theyre hard enough to maintain inside.

One more thought, ifnyou need hydraulics there is nothing that says you cant have two engines, one for the saw and one for the turner, clamp and maybe even live deck system. Heck why not a greenchain for outbound lumber? A 13hp motor with a 3gpm pump at 2000 psi will run a backhoe at about the normal speed youd dig with and theyre fairly affordable, sub $600 new. Itll convey and flip logs no doubt. You could build your carriage with an operator seat so that you ride the carriage while sawing then when returned home you are in reach of a stationary control panel for log handling.  Would save a lot of walking and no need to figure out a cable carrier and have the saw head cluttered with controls.  Put a beach umbrella and beer holster on the seat, be like a vacation.

For measuring, guys who use linear lift systems like winch cable or chain seem to have linear tapes stuck on with adjustable pointers, kbeitz did a great one.  If your lift uses lead screws then you can put a wide faced wheel with numbers and pointer on the input shaft of your right angle worm gear box. Old circle mill setworks tend to use this.  Look up cross sawmill in georgia on youtube, hes got one on his monster home made bandmill. Boston Gear is a good worm manufacturer. I got many from scrap yard.

I have been meaning to critique some basic design elements of my mill for a while but my internet connection stinks and my uploads always failed.  Heres a handful of pics at various angles so you can hopefully see what im talking about.

Its 100% junkpile stuff, zero dollars spent.  I really needed to clean up an area of the yard piled with logs so i could start filling there, and it seemed better to just make rough lumber before they rot. Knock out two jobs at once. Made most of it in a day on a whim with very little thought. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1001181614-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1538451573)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1001181614a-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539094258)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1003181214.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539131447)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1001181620.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539094353)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1003181404b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539131486)

So part 1 is material weight and rigidity.  To get rigid from light, material structure is critical.  Torsion (twist resistance) is carried best by round tubes. Wall thickness doesnt matter nearly as much as diameter, which youll note pretty quickly in semi truck driveshafts.  5" diameter fairly thinwall tubes transfer 2000 ft lbs.   If you made the letter "H" entirely frame 2"angle iron or flat strip and lifted just one corner the whole thing would twist under its own weight.  Make it from 2" round tube same thickness and itll be totally rigid.  

My bed started as a ladder for an alaskan mill.  It was all streetsign post and super flimsy so i welded in two scraps of exhaust pipe to torsion the rails together. it then stayed flat, i could carry it to the woods one handed.  I went back to the welding table with 2 pieces of 4 inch C channel then spaced the track off the table and welded it together so the channels touched the rails and the exh pipe.  The channels hold the weight of the log, the rails only carry the saw.  The coated conduit between the channel risers keeps them from rotating out of plane with each other and the 1" barstock keeps the log above the exhaust pipe which wasnt very flat or true.  So logs and lumber are still sitting on a surface that my welding table ensured were true, even using junky twisty material.   The barstock is square to the flat side of the streetsign. Good enough.

Now on to the mistake i made.  It was too easy to make my backstops bolt to the streetsign and utilize the holes all along them and that they were 90* to the log deck.  But when you add it a cam clamp at 12" of leverage, the street sign bows out badly.  Its a great material, but it cant handle torsion.  I really needed to put the backstop and the clamp both on the yellow pipe (which is 1-5/8 handrail with ready rail floating on each for the clamps) because it is much much better suited to resist the load of clamping a log.  

So that little booboo makes it where i cant clamp a log up high very tightly.  If i open the saw up WOT and dig in hard, the log will vibrate and the clamps will often drop, especially if im clamping the underbelly of a round side.  If i clamp tighter the rail bends out and im not cutting square to the bed.  So log cutting is slow.  

When im down to a square cant, i flip my backstops upside down so that they only stand about 1.5" proud and apply the clamps down low, much tighter.  Bending the rails, slipping clamps and vibrating log issues all go away.  But if i go too hard the entire rig will vibrate.  Hence my commentary on mass.  In machining, you can only get a quality finish as quickly as the machines' hp, weight and rigidity allow.  Bolt a big fast motor on a light machine and youll get a bad cut from flex.  Reinforce to eliminate flex and you get the entire machine shaking, needs mass.  So it all plays together.  You can only cut as fast as your machine parameters allow.

Next issue that i didnt foresee is clamps.  I dont think i like cams.  A clamp has to work well on 2 totally different products.  A log, and a piece of lumber.  If its an old salvage log with rotten bark and punky sapwood, youll need a really large, mean cam to bite way in.  That punky wood collapses from vibration and you have to keep resetting your dogs, theyll fall out.  Now when you get a nice solid cant to start working down you cant really use that mean dog, itll tear up the wood and it leaves a blue stain in red oak.  Its fine for barn wood but cabinet grade stuff cant have that.  I put one smooth and one gnarly side to my dog for now but i think ill switch to pointed screw jacks eventually.  Probably use wood scraps to prevent the damage and stain on nice cants.  

Anyhow.. Those are the things ive discovered so far from doing it wrong.  The concepts are universal and scale in size, from dinky toys like mine to big mills.  Mass and rigidity are critical componets to producing good, fast cuts. 

Square and rectangle is also good for torsion resistance. one good thing about square is you can see when it is twisted.

good writeup Mike. sometimes its better to show the bad instead of the good.

I made my backstops spring loaded to combat those problems you spoke of. So far I have not had a problem with them moving once loaded.

you could always put a butt plate on the mill as well. something to push the log against and let gravity do the rest.

Quote from: mike_belben on October 10, 2018, 10:53:25 AMOne more thought, ifnyou need hydraulics there is nothing that says you cant have two engines, one for the saw and one for the turner, clamp and maybe even live deck system. Heck why not a greenchain for outbound lumber? A 13hp motor with a 3gpm pump at 2000 psi will run a backhoe at about the normal speed youd dig with and theyre fairly affordable, sub $600 new. Itll convey and flip logs no doubt. You could build your carriage with an operator seat so that you ride the carriage while sawing then when returned home you are in reach of a stationary control panel for log handling.  Would save a lot of walking and no need to figure out a cable carrier and have the saw head cluttered with controls.  Put a beach umbrella and beer holster on the seat, be like a vacation.

Another option for the remote Hyd power unit is to have the operator stationary and use it to run the feed as well, then there are only a few things that need to be run remotely on the mill that can be hydraulic as well with a much smaller system or electric.

Saw height is the only necessary one but moveable guide and throttle control would be nice, perhaps a emergency shutdown as well.

Options for remote could be wired or wireless, electric or electric hydraulic.

One idea I have thought of is using hydraulic valves mounted on the side of the saw head that are controlled by cam followers and rods (or flat stock) that run along the length of the saw bed with a leaver on the end to raise or lower the rod which in turn moves the valve controls. If using the cam follower idea for saw head travel as well a bend in the end of the rod would automatically move the hydraulic valve to neutral to prevent the saw head from ramming the end of the track. 


Another is to have a hydraulic system on the saw head with and a separate on the bed to take care of log handling but power the log handling system from the saw motor when the saw head is in the "home" position by means of a belt or clutch that engages the saw bed pump to power it.  

One of my original thoughts was electric everything on the bed and power it when the head is in the home position. I find I rarely have the head in the home position. kinda glad I never wired it up that way but I still have not added what I want to the bed yet for log handling.

Andersen cable connectors are definitely rigid enough to have a male and female snap together when the carriage returns home and docks the two ports together.  I think its reasonable to put a DC powerpack hydraulic system on the mill bed and have it be powered by the parked carriage.  I mean if you are in home and handling a log you arent sawing so the motor is running for nothing.  Electric forklifts tend to have 24vdc motors, pumps and valving.  Usually a combination of DC solenoid and manual spool.  

Quote from: Hilltop366 on October 10, 2018, 01:24:49 PMAnother is to have a hydraulic system on the saw head with and a separate on the bed to take care of log handling but power the log handling system from the saw motor when the saw head is in the "home" position by means of a belt or clutch that engages the saw bed pump to power it.

For this one my original thought was to have a belt that ran along the mill bed frame 3 or 4 feet with the pump on one end and a idler pulley on the other so as the saw head returned it could contact the belt before it got to the end to give a longer area to park the saw head and use the log handling things. Not all the details worked out.

Probably easier to run a small gas engine for the bed hydraulics considering how cheap the engines are these days.

that would work really nicely with a lovejoy running the hydraulic pump.

Gentlemen, thank again for such an educational set of comments. This is inventors class for sure.

Crusarius, I am familiar with the concept of arduino, and have always wanted to find time for learning how to use it. However, I typically learn a technology when I work on a project that uses it. Good point about square tubng showing the twist. Recently experienced that when my skidsteer quick attach plate came off bucket on onoly one side with a 1000 lb grapple ont eh front. Not good.  All fixed. When you said lovejoy running the hydraulic pump, did you mean the coupling that connects two shafts or some other technology? What made you think to only use the power when in the "home position"? Was it the idea that the motor is strained to cut and power an all elec system when not enough HP?? You know, aside from having to employ two pumps, one could have the power head run any hydraulics in the head and and the 5hp engine at the end of carriage (Like turner mill) run hydraulics for log handling... would be another engine to maintain also... I guess I will see how I look after gettng my pile of stuff together. Would prefer one diesel (mobile) or electric (staitionary),,,, but I may find my situation different.

Hilltop366, thank you kindly for that link. Already opened to check it out. I did see the turner mills have a secondary 5hp engine. I thought it was just because the main could not handle the workload. Now that you mentioned it I see that it would need less lines potentially as the lines could be stationary for the "set works" (new word for me :) Had never heard of an anderson connector before. Looke dit up and glad to know what it is. I sure wish there was an inventors book that mentioned much of the commonly available technologies and how to implemeent. If I lived near a "kbeitz" I would try to be his disciple of invention. Actually, Mike Belben better be glad he doesn't live closer or he might have to run me off.  

Mike Belben, your post was a class in itself. I learned several new definition and engineering ideas. Jjust by googling terms you ised such as green chain, live dwck, linear stage. I had not even considered the idea of air for anything in the design. I did use a beefy 4" air cylinder to automate a plastic injection machine for my son last year. Got me thinking?? kbeitz read was indeed amazing. That man knows how to fabricate from what is on hand. The torsion/resistance data... great! Drive shaft and angle example made it very clear. Thank you very much for the thoughtful explanation. I am the guy who really wants to know "why?" something works, not just "use round tube!" which leaves me unsatisifed asking "why?" Same reason I now know I want diesel power for mobile and electric if stationary, and gas only if free :) I was not sure what you meant by the coated conduit or the last pic, but reread it and looke dat pic and now I have both clear. Last pic is cam. Thise are on the yellow tube. So your next attemot will be to put a pointed bolt where that T shaped rod for the cam is. Really appreciate your taking the time to instruct me Mike. This was really awesome, educational. I really should have been an engineer/fabricator/mad scientist. I love this stuff.

Someone gave me a Foley Belsaw. Has about 36-40" steel blade. I looked at it, but do not see how to automate it. It would certainly be stationary for me, but it is free.

-Mike

Quote from: MikeySP on October 11, 2018, 08:43:41 AM
Gentlemen, thank again for such an educational set of comments. This is inventors class for sure.

Crusarius, I am familiar with the concept of arduino, and have always wanted to find time for learning how to use it. However, I typically learn a technology when I work on a project that uses it. Good point about square tubng showing the twist. Recently experienced that when my skidsteer quick attach plate came off bucket on onoly one side with a 1000 lb grapple ont eh front. Not good.  All fixed. When you said lovejoy running the hydraulic pump, did you mean the coupling that connects two shafts or some other technology? What made you think to only use the power when in the "home position"? Was it the idea that the motor is strained to cut and power an all elec system when not enough HP?? You know, aside from having to employ two pumps, one could have the power head run any hydraulics in the head and and the 5hp engine at the end of carriage (Like turner mill) run hydraulics for log handling... would be another engine to maintain also... I guess I will see how I look after gettng my pile of stuff together. Would prefer one diesel (mobile) or electric (staitionary),,,, but I may find my situation different.

Yes, lovejoy coupling. could have drive side on carriage and when you put it into the home position it could connect to slave side and power the hydraulics that way.

The reason I was thinking power only in the home position was so I did not have to run wires or hoses off the carriage and have them move with the head. I prefer to minimize wearable items. wires and hoses only have so much flex life before issues arise. I guess I could set it up so the battery is on the bed and then that won't be a problem but then I would not have the engine charging the battery.

As much as I would love to have a diesel, having a manual mill just means more weight to push around. They cost quite a bit more. And the fuel also costs more. In the end I could not justify diesel. I almost bought a kubota tractor with a 3 cylinder diesel just for the engine. I bought the HF 22 hp predator. cost me $700 at the time. If I had been more patient I could have gotten it for $650. Hard to beat that. so far the engine has been great and I have plenty of power. up until this past weekend I think I had more issues with power transfer due to slipping belts. I added a belt tensioner and it cut so much smoother.

Glad I could help. I am not shy keep the questions coming. Not only does it help you, but it also helps me and anyone reading this in the future.

oh yea, diesel also weighs quite a bit more. So now you need to build beefier and heavier to support the weight.

For the cam lock log dogs (or any other kind) I was wondering if they were sloped towards the log a bit they would push down when tightened there by avoiding the lifting of the log? Kind of like having some preset in them.

I had screw type log dog and found them slow to set and always thought the cam lock would be so much faster.

Check out the Logosol dogs in this video.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=124&v=OmyFKF8zIa0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=124&v=OmyFKF8zIa0)

I love having the springs. the sleeve on the 2" square locks like the cam locks bar but the spring holds it from moving.

Lot of great ideas on that Logosaw band mill.  Here is my cam clamp I made.  The handle/lever was just some scrap ½" rod that was already bent.  The cam is a piece of SS rod.  The bolts are Grade 8 5/16" IIRC.  The tube is ¼" wall 2x2.  The clamp is 1x1 solid steel.  The point is level when you start and angles down slightly when fully clamped so I suppose it pulls down a little.  They work fantastic - easy, FAST and very strong.  The only problem is the lower bolt prevents me from going lower than 7½".  I might try to countersink it or replace it with a roll pin.  I made a smaller one that is rotated 90° for doing the little stuff.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171213_b.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513201621)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171213_c.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513201640)
 
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(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171219_d.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513744594)
 
They are not quite so pretty anymore but still function great.

Nifty log dogs. I will make powered, but this still gives me close up details. Just need to replace a hand with power. :)

Diesel is definitely more weight, but If I am building the mill, and it will cost little different because of my free parts, I want a high production machine. If it was choice between free 22hp or spendy 50hp, I would go with the former. If it was a manual mill it would also play in. So in the end, I will look at my pile of stuff and make compromises where it makes economic sense and time to build sense. 

On a side note, someone just gave me a functioning Foley Belsaw with 36-40" steel blade. Not sure if this is something that can be automated?? I had not considered a circular, but it was free??

-Mike

Realized that a cam is not neccesary when hydraulic is pushing. :)

Those are some very innovative dogs.


Here i can buy red diesel cheaper than gas and it lasts forever.  Im on a break from it now, but i make waste vegetable oil fuel and conversion systems.  

Gas engines mean eventually fooling with carbs and ignitions.. Not a week goes by that i dont have some stupid gas engine problem.  Coils, breakers, condensors, distributor buttons, wires, never ends.  My diesels are always easier to keep up.  

I would consider a small mechanical diesel for my saw and a $99 throwaway Predator for the setworks.  Buy 2 and a warranty.  Any grief and you swap them out then get another like flashlight batteries.  5hp sounds small.. But 5 horses can pull huge loads.  You use a small displacement pump (low gpm) and just wait 3 seconds longer, big deal.  Its when you want 10gpm at 3000 psi that you need bigger motor.  3gpm at 2200 psi will do what you need.  A log dog or backstop mover doesnt need much flow or pressure.. A half hp worth.  


I wish i had friends who toss belsaws!

Actually, very good friend that I gifted the mill, a lathe, and metal milling machine to. All old beat up stuff. Anyways, he recently got a steel rail Foley that is quite a bit nicer w/42" Carbide blade. When he knew I was looking at building a bandmill, he told me he did not want the one I gave him and said for me to take it and use it or sell it to fund my project. 

What say you Gents? Folley Belsaw with "steel" blade. New cardbide insert blade would be$$$ for starters, but are steel blades poor performers?

Next, is there a way to make these automated. Feed already is, but it would need log turner, loader, dogs, etc..

The log bed is too thin for any trama, so it would need a bed to feed it. But even then, the space is not there for the additional automation (as best I can tell).

However, if I disassembled the sawmill and put the power-plant (tractor) and blade/bearing blocks alone to one side and then built a beefy feed and log management on the other, it could have some potential perhaps. I lose all portability though.

May need to stick with the bandmill idea, but this is tempting. 

I have toyed with the idea of going circle several times, but can't make it work for one man efficiently.  Take the mill maybe you can do something with it or use it as is.

OK Gents, here is where I am at currently: I will pick up the Belsaw and trade/sell it to finish acquiring the parts I need to build a bandsaw mill.

As mentioned, I have on hand many items such as steel and lots of hardware stuff. 

I have acquired through trading a few guns: 
44HP Kubota Turbo Diesel with about 1500 hrs on it.
10 good (used) hydraulic motors with some hoses, valves (both mechanical and solenoid types)
several small hydraulic cylinders (1/2" - 3/4" rod dia and about 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" bore with a stroke of about 12-15 inches).
a bunch more hardware related stuff. 

All of this came from the trade, so I will use what will work, and set aside what won't.

I plan to reread Cooks bandsaw wheel size paper to see what size wheels I will need and to determine what size blade I should use: 1.5" 2"?

Cook's wheels are about $500 each for 26" (I think)
Hud-son sells 25" wheels for $275 each ( I think)

However, I think the cooks come with the part that has a keyway and bolts to the wheel; whereas, the Hudson appears to be the wheel without that other part. 

I have been scouring for trading but have not found any sawmill wheels on craigslist or facebook. 

Can I use a large bandsaw? There are some large, older, heavy bandsaws I see, but I wasn't sure if they are strong enough for a 44HP engine when they are currently powered by a 2-3hp electric motor for woodworking shop duties.

Additionally, what is the sanity/insanity or building a LONG trailer for a sawmill. 30-50ft. 

Thank you Gents and have a great Fall day.

whatever you build for a trailer make sure you can transport it and get it into tight spots. I have a 24' trailer and it is challenging just getting it turned around sometimes.

Quote from: MikeySP on October 26, 2018, 08:54:03 AMAdditionally, what is the sanity/insanity or building a LONG trailer for a sawmill. 30-50ft.

What is your target length of log to cut?  You could do what someone else has done - make fold up extension.  Make the bed what you need for your target log - strong and rigid.  Then, have fold up ends that only need to be stout enough to support your mill head.  Think of them as parking places to get the mill out of the way when loading a log or finishing the cut.

That was an idea I had. So far I have not needed anymore than the 24' bed I have. Maybe one day. But till then the 24' is a big PITA trying to move it around my house.

As far as the length goes, the first question is do you have logs that long in your area that you would be sawing?  Is there a market for timbers that long?  Getting a 30' straight log, that needs to be sawn into 30' material is not an everyday thing.  The other issue is you need to be able to manage that monster on and off of the mill.  They are heavy and un wieldy when trying to move around, they just don't cooperate unless you have the right equipment.  

If long stuff is a "might" have the chance to see once in a great while then I would stick with something more compact, but design it so you can add on later, in the form of a portable extension,  should the market present you with that opportunity.  Then when you need the long saw you make two trips, or two tow units - charge on those jobs accordingly - but everything is still maneuverable for daily work.  

Great. Thanks for the comments gents. Helps me think more clearly. 

A Tannewitz with 36" wheels will wipe the floor with about any other band saw out there.  

Great info men! So a metal bandsaw may have the right wheels. I know I used to have a tiny bottom line JET metal bandsaw that had ridges on the wheels, but I guess that is not normative for the larger industrial types.

Question Southside Logger: will my 44HP Diesel be able to effectively power 36" wheels?

Curious as I am not married to any design yet aside from hydraulics, band sawmill, and 44HP diesel as I have these already. I say this because 36" wheels would create a problem an oversize load or very small log diameter limit in a mobile mill.

Question: does space between wheels slow down cutting speed to maintain straight boards?


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51882/Distance_between_bandwheels.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540654685)
 

The space (or capacity) between the wheels does not affect the cutting speed.  The actual width of the wood that you are cutting may dictate a slower cutting speed.  As does the hardness of the wood, the number of the knots and the craziness of the grain.  And, of course, the sharpness of the blade (has the greatest influence, IMO).  Now, for a longer blade (i.e. distance between guides), you will have to keep the blade tight(er) to help it track better (not dive) in the wood.  To combat the rigidness need, a wider blade can be used.  But that, in turn, requires more tension, which requires more stout build, and on and on.

Great, once I figure and find wheels, I will bring this topic up again.

Quote from: MikeySP on October 27, 2018, 11:34:09 AMwill my 44HP Diesel be able to effectively power 36" wheels?

The couple Tannewitz I have been around usually had a 5hp - 7.5hp 3 phase motor on them, so yes you will have plenty of torque.  The difference will be material feed rate, that smaller motor can only be fed so fast before it would begin to negatively impact cut quality as it would bog down the motor if fed too fast.  I think the Bakers run 36" wheels too.

Big wheels and wide cuts = expensive blades.  My bands are 1 1/2 inch wide and a little over 17 feet long.  I pay close to $30.00 for them.  I am told some can get bands for about $13.00 for some mills.  Just something to think about if you are building a mill.  Banjo

Banjo, thank you so much for chiming in with that.

This is a very important consideration. The further I go, it seems each decision seems to come with costs/compromises.  I think the man who knows exactly what he will use his saw for has an advantage as he can have his NEEDS defined. Making a sawmill that will do-all, will prove costly in design and operation if it is not used to it's capabilities.

Attempting to do it all is almost never profitable in my experience. I do it all.. Everything except make money.  Im the logger sawyer landscaper wood splitter dishwasher accountant plumber soccer mom truck driver equipment operator builder roofer painter mechanic electrician dental hygenist gardener cook secretary and therapist.  Cant make a dang cent that way, theres always 25 more probono projects in line before one that pays.

Pick a thing that makes money and do the thing.  Dont venture outside that tract until the thing that pays is paying too much and needs deductions to offset income from taxation. That may or may not ever occur.   

To narrow that to sawing, there is no way to be efficient in every apect on one single machine if you are aiming to make slabs, pallets, flooring, ties and staves.  A stave resaw or scrag mill wont make table slabs and youll die of starvation trying to do pallet slats on a chainsaw slabber.  Youve got to pick your product and build the machine to suit that.  Build another machine if you move in a majorly diifferent direction. 

I started out building a mill to cut a 36" log 22' long. Which I was successful doing. I ended up with 31" between the guides. Did I need to be able to do 36"? probably not. The biggest I have done so far is 22". Do I wish i had the capability of a wider cut. Yes. But only when doing crotches.

I may end up making my mill a dual width so I can run the standard 158" blade for most of my sawing and then a 176" for the crotches. 

I stopped trying to design to do everything I wanted to do, and started looking around and settled for what I need to do. It is still above and beyond what I need, but I am a fond believer of doing it right the first time.

Moral of the story is overbuild, but not to much. :)

Quote from: Crusarius on October 29, 2018, 10:02:46 AMI may end up making my mill a dual width so I can run the standard 158" blade for most of my sawing and then a 176" for the crotches.

Hmm, my tag line says "Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long".  I'm using "standard" 184" bands on 21/22" tires.  I say standard because that is what WM has in stock, not special order.  Actually , I think they are more like 183.75" for the 210 teeth to come out even.

What size wheels did you end up using to get the cut capacity with that short of a blade?

19" wheels. I basically placed the guides perpendicular to the edge of the wheel to give me the widest cut I could do between the wheels. If my math is right I can add another 9" width switching to a 176 blade. But the 176 cost a good deal more.

Yes, your math is correct with the longer blade.  But, If I do the math with 19" wheels, you have 49" where the blade leaves the wheels at the bottom.  If you look at the distance between the wheels, that is ~ 30".  But your guides can be tucked up under the wheels a little so you *should* be able to get ~35-38" with the 158" blade.  You would only be able to make 1 or 2 slabs before you would have to remove them from the mill.

My 184" blades (1¼") come in a 15 pack for $345 and free shipping, IIRC.  That's $23/blade (well, plus tax).

With the radius of the wheels I would only be able to do thin boards. I chose to make the flush with the radius so I would never get into a situation I started a cut then could not get past a certain point because of interference. I thought about making them wider but decided it was better not to. Part of the reason I am still contemplating a dual width setup.

Maybe on V2.0? :)

I just paid little over 18 a blade. that adds up quick.

Just wanted to pop in here and tell you Crusarius, that you have a great looking mill.  Somehow yours slipped through the cracks and I don't remember seeing it.

Thanks boardmaker. it is still a work in progress. I really need to get the thread caught up on the latest things I have done.

Very good. What is a dual width sawmill? I came up with nothing searching for it. Obviously, I assume it can be set to two different sizes. Does this mean a telescoping main beam the separates the two band-wheels? Is there a good example of one that is manufactured? or homebuilt?

I dunno about any of that but I was going to make an extension for my hydrauilc tensioning ram and a longer sawframe. That will give me the ability to set it to a 158" blade length or for a 176" blade length.

I am not sure I want to stock both blades though. but most of the time I do not need the extra width the 176 would give me. Plus the cost of the 158 is more tolerable for a hobby guy.

There is a guy on YouTube who made his LT40 adjustable. I think it's titled something along the lines of "I cut my sawmill in half". He did a great job on it.

he is on this forum. I forgot his name but he made it wider not adjustable.

I thought he could use either width?

Yeah, he made his C frame telescope into normal or wide mode.  Its bolted into one position ornthe other with a big aluminum post inserted into the cut tube. 

I did see a video of a guy with a woodmizer who runs a pretty nice slab sawing operation, in Canada I think. 

Looks like I found a serious size bandsaw with 30" wheels. 

Looks like a small house this thing is so big. May be headed up to St. Louis for it. Will have to bring my sunshine (daughter) for a homeschool field trip to the zoo. :) I think this may allow me to salvage other mechanisms for tensioning, bearings, axles, etc..???

Quote from: bwstout on October 03, 2018, 07:35:00 AM
there is a guy that goes by the name of Texas Ben that has a set of plans on EBay that are good plans they are easy to follow and make adjustment to fit your needs. He has a YouTube channel that show his mill in operation there is a few on here that used his plans. I used them to build my mill. It will cut accurate I added power to the head to move it up and down and for power feed. If you have to buy most of the metal form my own experience you can buy the LT15 for about the price of  metal and parts. But building it yourself is a rewarding experience. I found this sight after I built mine and made a lot of mistakes. There is a thread here that talks about different mod on sawmills read it then read it again you before you build. It will save you a lot of time and make your mill easier to use. Best to you on your build.

I bought a copy of Texas Ben's plans. I have not built a mill, but the plans look good to me, with a lot of explanatory information, some figures, and some videos.

It don't take much power to turn wheels. What takes torque is keepin em going. Bigger wheel (read heavy) act and work like flywheels storing energy. 

Baker Dominators run 36" bandwheels and a 240" blade. A 240"x 2"x .055" Kasco 7/40 costs about $42 iirc.

Quote from: JB Griffin on November 03, 2018, 09:26:44 PMIt don't take much power to turn wheels. What takes torque is keepin em going. Bigger wheel (read heavy) act and work like flywheels storing energy. 

Also, a larger wheel (but the same band speed) means you can gear down the drive pulleys more, and that increases the torque, to make up for the larger wheel dia. So actual power requirements should be similar. 

The larger wheels should help band life as it reduces the flexing on the band each time it goes around one, and there is the flywheel effect too.

Commercial mills are always a trade-off between cost and capacity, and then you add in the portability thing as well. I'm not sure what size wheels a WM1000 has, but I know it's neither cheap nor very portable. ;) 

Longer blades cost more, they also last longer which cancels out the extra cost UNLESS you hit metal.

Very true Ianab, thanks for catching what I missed. 

I dont mean to pick on ya but i dont think thats entirely correct on the bandwheels diameter influence on torque.  The bigger diameter will cause higher surface feet per minute band speed but due to the longer radius that the big wheel is applying force to the band, torque into the band is reduced. (Well, load to the engine is increased by working through a longer lever of disadvantage. Whether torque output from the engine increases or not depends on whether the engine had more to offer or not.  You cannot create power without a load to dissipate the power into.)

regearing to correct band speed upon a wheel diameter increase will then increase torque into the band wheel's shaft but im not sure on the tire surface.  i believe the two cancel each other out.  If you go up 20% on size youll put 20% more load into the shaft and need a 20% regear to go back to prior condition.

If you put taller tires on a truck you go faster at the same engine RPM and have less pulling capacity.  You regear to correct the tire change and your MPH/RPM relationship is restored but no extra torque is created by this [if we are talking about a 1:1 drive ratio]

Where gearing gives you more torque to apply to the load is when you down shift a gear while running the same tire size.    More cycles per minute carry the load.  Basically each piston is biting off a smaller bite when it spins faster.  

Im still unsure actually.. Starting to waffle on it myself.  And it really doesnt matter much, i just like the physics discussion of it. Keeps my brain occupied.

'Big band wheels are gonna need a big motor' is an oversimplification that should hold fairly true. 

If the band speed stays the same (feet per min) a larger band wheel will weigh a bit more and will require a bit more power to spin but I'm thinking the effect will be minimal when you take into account the rest of the spinning mass in the hole system (engine, pulleys, shafts) perhaps there will be some fly wheel effect if the wheel was a lot heavier and larger, that would be ok if the cut is only a few seconds but with a longer cut ripping logs I'm thinking a lot of flywheel effect would be your enemy by working against you after the first few inches of cut.

The trick is finding the happy medium for your intended use which I think would be to start with the log and work your way from there, will keeping your budget in mind.

Log size and species = band size and type?

Band size ? = band wheel size and band speed?

Log size and band size and type and band speed = power requirement ?

Band wheel size ?  and band size ? = shaft and bearing size ? 

And on and on.....

It keeps going until the mill is sitting on the ground.

A person could start somewhere else in the equation and build around a different limiting factor for a component you already have like band wheels or engine and see if the end product would fulfill your needs.

IMHO

Quote from: MikeySP on October 27, 2018, 11:34:09 AMCurious as I am not married to any design yet aside from hydraulics, band sawmill, and 44HP diesel as I have these already. I say this because 36" wheels would create a problem an oversize load or very small log diameter limit in a mobile mill.

I will be running into this issue. Nearly 11' wide for the saw head beam, im having to design a way to turn the entire carriage 90 degrees to transport it, then put it back into saw position once its moved. 
Iv got a few "designs" but not sure if any will work without potentially causing damage to the carriage assy. 

 Charles;
  Check out   canadianwoodworkers  posts. He modified his single post Wood-Mizer so the head telescoped, from the original throat, to about 20 or so inches wider throat. Might give you some thoughts.
  LEON

Quote from: Wintergreen Mountain on November 04, 2018, 06:15:24 PM
Charles;
 Check out   canadianwoodworkers  posts. He modified his single post Wood-Mizer so the head telescoped, from the original throat, to about 20 or so inches wider throat. Might give you some thoughts.
 LEON

I did check it out, and it would work, except the saw beam itself, even if i took the drive wheel off, just the sq tubing is just under 11'. 
Now, i could cut the sq tubing in half, weld up a slide box out of 1/2" plate and plug weld some more 1/2" inside the sq tubing, where i could bolt the slide box to the 2 halves of the beam. Not sure, probably 95+% chance, it would hold up, and i might go buy another stick of 5"x5" sq tubing and give it a try. I mean heck, if it doesnt work, im only around $400. I spit more than that every year in copenhagen, which is a constant outgo, as where the mill has a chance of being ingo. 

make a cantilever style head and put a rotating bearing on it to rotate the entire saw portion.

Quote from: Crusarius on November 05, 2018, 07:22:03 AM
make a cantilever style head and put a rotating bearing on it to rotate the entire saw portion.

Cantilever 1400 pounds? That'll be a heck of a design feat. 

your mill needs a diet :) 

it can be done. just need to look at counterweights and proper geometry.

Use a HD truck axle spindle and hub from scrap yard.  And have support post to lock it into for the travel position.  Keep the brake caliper for controlling the swing speed, you can engage the pads with a simple hand cam.  

Or buy a dead bucket truck manlift crane and repurpose the base.  Theyll have a brass worm gear hydraulic rotatry base similar to a mini ex sort of and easily handle the weight. A large machine shop rotary table could also.  Those are worm gear too. You can adjust the tolerance by gib screws on those usually. But a truck axle is surely cheapest for most of us.

Look at building cranes.. Single upright, 300ft long jib spar, big counterweight off the back.  Been in business for a few hundred years now, must work half decent.  Your engine is the counterweight.  Because fuel tank levels vary i would locate that near the pivot to reduce its influence on lumber finish.  If it has to be at one end or the other, oppose its weight with a sliding weight on the other side.  Like an old doctor scale.  Tank gets filled, slide the weight the other way. 

I was thinking a bottle jack in the centre under the saw but once the saw carriage is off the ground things could get tippy.

So next thought is a turn table, have a section of track (double frame) that turns on a centre pivot and has guide bearings under that ride on a circular rim to keep it stable. The track would be cut on a angle so it returns to the same position and can't go past the normal running position.

Quote from: Crusarius on November 05, 2018, 09:28:26 AM
your mill needs a diet :)

it can be done. just need to look at counterweights and proper geometry.

Then it wouldnt cut the width im building for. Now, i could go to an electric motor and loose 400-500 lbs, or go to a small gas engine and loose bout the same wt. 

Quote from: Hilltop366 on November 05, 2018, 11:33:31 AM
I was thinking a bottle jack in the centre under the saw but once the saw carriage is off the ground things could get tippy.

So next thought is a turn table, have a section of track (double frame) that turns on a centre pivot and has guide bearings under that ride on a circular rim to keep it stable. The track would be cut on a angle so it returns to the same position and can't go past the normal running position.

Turn table is my thought process too, and have thought about the the spindle and brake system from a semi truck. 
Just lifting the carriage is where it gets sketchy. But if using a turn table, 2 hydraulic cylinders on a porta power pump, attached to the table, then to the beam would provide a bit more stability than a single. 

At 1400 lbs I figure it could be turned by hand fairly easily when you think of how much a person can push with something like a pallet jack on a hard smooth surface. 

Add a place to put a pole or a peavy on the side and you have just increased your leverage and reduced your effort considerably.

Thanks for all the comments!! We picked up the bandsaw. A Peerless 3000-MS with 30" wheels. This thing is enormous. Anyways, the wheels are 30" and ride on 1-1/2" axles. Much to cannibalize off of it for the build. QuestionWS\: How do I estimate if it is beefy enough for my purposes? Is it trial and error? I ask, because I got it for a song and could sell the thing at a descent profit and pick up a set of "proper" wheels. I like the idea of using these wheels as it has many mechanisms I can utilize such as tilting wheel adjustment for toe-in/out, Tensioner, Bearings, axles, Engine slide tensioner, etc..

What say ye Gents?


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how wide of a band will the wheels accept? if you c\are cutting fairly wide, your band needs to be wide too. since I'm going nearly 6' wide, many, including the blade sales rep with WM and Cooks said no less than 1.5" inches, so i went with 2" for everything, allowing me to drop down to a 1.5" at a later date once resourcing 60"+ trees is limited or non longer worth the effort to gather.

Quote from: mike_belben on November 05, 2018, 10:13:22 AM
Look at building cranes.. Single upright, 300ft long jib spar, big counterweight off the back.  Been in business for a few hundred years now, must work half decent.  Your engine is the counterweight.  Because fuel tank levels vary i would locate that near the pivot to reduce its influence on lumber finish.  If it has to be at one end or the other, oppose its weight with a sliding weight on the other side.  Like an old doctor scale.  Tank gets filled, slide the weight the other way.

I figure if a cantilever design is to be used, it'll be on vs 2.5 and will be able to mock up something. i figure putting the fuel cell at bed rail or below will drastically minimize or fully negate the need for a counter weight as fuel is burned. it will be below the cg point and an electric lift pump could be used to push fuel to the injector pump. 
im not sure if i can explain my method of building the guide rails for the mill to travel horizontally. but here goes. buy some thick tubing, say, 2.5" in diameter with a 1/2" wall thickness and basically copy the WM design. use 4' of 3" sq tubing and some 1/4" UHMW to glide down the 2x6 bed beam. i figure if i can make the engine hang off far enough, but yet still keep enough downward pressure on the guide rails, it will also put enough side loading pressure on the     sq tubing and uhmw, causing it stay "true". that is until the plastic wears down enough, that I have to replace the plastic. 

Quote from: charles mann on November 05, 2018, 09:39:08 PMi figure putting the fuel cell at bed rail

Are you going to cat track your fuel line from the tank to the engine?  Definitely would want a skid plate around the tank as a lot of debris falls and or can gather under the mill, nubs and limbs not cut flush along with butt swell and sweep will protrude down below the rails, not to mention transport hazards of stumps, sticks, and other log trash.  

Quote from: Southside logger on November 05, 2018, 10:26:30 PM

Quote from: charles mann on November 05, 2018, 09:39:08 PMi figure putting the fuel cell at bed rail

Are you going to cat track your fuel line from the tank to the engine?  

Naw, set the cell in a mounted frame that is bolted to the lower carriage rail with a qd fitting for fuel out and return line. a 5 gal tank won't weigh much, and it would be riding on the outside of the bed beam. look at it as riding to the outside, where the tire/wheel would be. 
plus nothing is set intone, even my current mill build. iv only got the 20' 2x6 beams drilled/tapped for the 2x2 3/8" angle to be bolted to, the 33 1" holes for the leveling bolts, and the 11 bunk cross beams cut. 
when i return from the land of constant rain and hippies, ill order the leveling bolts and trail rail bolts, get the leveling nuts welded on, install the bolts, level the beams, then jig them and start welding in the bunk beams.  

Thats probably a $2500 bandsaw.  I think plasma cutters, plasma/waterjet tables and the proliferation of cheap diy CNC has dramatically shrunken the market for vertical bandsaw users.. Meaning it may take a while to find a buyer in that range who doesnt already have one.. But.. Its a serious machine. Lot of floor space.  

So my first thought on that big Peerless is why tear it all apart to just rebuild it? Maybe trim it down a bit, build a carriage, and end up with a vertical saw rather than a horizontal saw. It would have some advantages when dealing with big logs.