Forum advice needed!!!

[AdamT]

I wont go in to too much detail here about the situation, for the customers sake. Basically I have a "customer" that I don't think is going to pay his saw bill. I did this job at home, so I still have possession of the lumber.


He bought some logs that were just that. Logs. Not good saw logs, just plain old pine logs. Well most were too small to make the size dimension of lumber requested, and I explained him this prior to myself hauling them to my place. Out of 110 logs bought, only 55 were the required 10" minimum diameter.

Anyways he was upset about this and it went downhill from there. Upon near completion of the job he calls to check in. I give him the figures, he gets mad at me and hangs up.

I have him some time to cool down, and call him back. I told him as a custom sawyer, we have 0% control over log quality. I have to saw what is provided to me by the customer. He somewhat understood.... I told him what his bill is, he cusses me out and hangs up the phone!


This has been some 2 weeks. My question is: at what point can I recover my costs by selling the timbers? I have an interested party already. There was only a verbal agreement, nothing in writing. Your advice will be greatly appreciated!

I thought I will call after 60 days and tell him has 30 days to pay or I assume ownership??  I dont know what to do. I did all I could for the customer... And this is what I got


Thanks for your help.

[beenthere]

Adam
I wouldn't call, but instead put something in writing.
Explain (repeat) the verbal conversations and reactions, and state the price quoted and the bill as charged.
Give 30 days or some time period for the customer to react and pay up, or state that the lumber/timber is yours to dispose of as you see fit.

But PUT IT IN WRITING

Keep a copy for your lawyer (also stated on the written letter).

Phone calls don't mean much in the end.

[DanG]

I second what BT says.  Your communications mean nothing unless they are in writing.  Phone calls are great as long as everything is amicable, but the pen needs to come out the moment things get confrontational.  I might even send that letter by certified mail.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Adam, don't make anymore calls to your customer. Send him a registered letter and give him so many days to pay and explain to him, if you are not paid by a certain date, the matter will be turned over to the court system. If he has not paid you by your requested date then take legal action.

This is a civil matter between 2 people. Call your Magistrates office and set up an appointment to talk to the judge. Explain to the judge just what you told us. Have a copy of the registered letter you sent the customer to show the judge.

The courts then will send him a letter to either pay or come to court to resolve the dispute.

I've been there and done this and usually they will pay you and come get their lumber after they receive the letter from you.

Good-Luck!

P.S. The one with the most paperwork brought to court WINS! 

[submarinesailor]

I might even send that letter by certified mail.

Dan beat me too it.  Make certified mail, return recept required.  It may cost a little more, but it may just save your a$$ if it goes to court.

Bruce

[Bogue Chitto]

Make the certified return receipt for your customer to sign for only and no one else. 

[Leigh Family Farm]

I would suggest having a lawyer look over the letter you send to the customer.

An apartment complex I rented in wanted to charge me $1,200 for carpet replacement after I moved out. The carpet was still in good condition and the apartment complex replaced the carpet without taking photos, providing receipts, or anything of the nature. I had a lawyer friend of mine type up a simple letter on his letterhead stating that the apartment complex didnot provide the proper documents over the carpet replacement, cleaning, etc. Result: I got a check for $300 bucks (remainder of my very small deposit) from the apartment company.

Lesson is that sometimes a simple letter from a lawyer gets you a check without having to go to court. If you have to go to court, you already have a lawyer up-t-date on the situation.

[taylorsmissbeehaven]

I had a couple supply me with a load of logs too small  to get what they wanted a year or so ago.( I asked for advice in a thread here) I took the first third to my mill and when I returned they were upset with me. I kept my cool, eventually got payment and told them I could not help with the rest. I think keeping my cool was the best way I could have handled the situation. If both parties are mad, too much can be said in the heat of it and nobody wins. Long story short, be patient and polite as possible and you will come out on top. A certified letter goes a long way. Brian

[steamsawyer]

Ditto for pretty much everything that has been said. I have been there and done that a few times over the years.

In my case I was required to wait 90 days after the registered letter with return recept. Only once was a letter from the lawyer necessary. Most legitimate individuals don't want their name in the paper, they will most likely settle without a hassel. One time I was able to resolve a small claims case out in the hall of the court house before the case was called in.

I guess I was fortunate enough that when I closed the doors and shut down my shop,after 22 years, there was less than $200 in my deadbeat file waiting to be collecting. Stand up for what he ows you and don't back down.

Another thing... When he decides he is better off paying you... Don't take his check, you don't have to accept it. Make him pay cash.

Alan

[NMFP]

I asend one certified and also one non certified.  The reason is simple.  If the postal service tries to deliver and they are not there, they can ignore the notice and after so many days, the letter is returned to you.  At this point, you are now out the extra money plus, your letter has not been received by the customer.

I went through this a year ago and sure enough, the certified letter was returned to me because no one picked it up at the post office.  Just because it is certified, doesnt mean they will pick it up.

[Delawhere Jack]

Use a lawyer if you need to this time, but make careful note of what he says/does. Study up on the process/laws in your area for small claims/civil court. Sooner or later you'll run into this sort of thing again, and if you know the law, you can handle it without a lawyer.

If you have a lawyer prepare the letter, keep a copy as a template for future use.

Lawyers fees take a bite out of the bottom line, and they expect to get paid whether they win or lose.

[hamptonlawyer]

First, as others have said, any communication should be in writing and sent certified, return receipt and also sent regular, first class mail.  Second, before any action is taken as to the disposition of the customer's goods, you need to consult an attorney in your jurisdiction.  Laws vary from state to state, so what works for one person in one state may not work for someone in another state.  Local custom and judges can also be a stong determining factor. 

It seems, from a general standpoint and subject to my statment regarding consulting a lawyer in your jurisdiction, that you have two separate and distinct issues here.  One is the lack of payment by the customer, and second is the product produced from the customer's lumber, whch is still owned by the customer, and which will remain the property of the customer until a court decides what the disposition of the product should be.  I suspect you would have some statutory or common law lien on the lumber and could ask that the court authorize that the lumber be sold in satisfaction of the lien, but I doubt you can dispose of the goods unilaterally absent a court order or a prior agreement in writing and signed by the customer acknowledging that lien and authorizing you to make disposition of the goods on his or her behalf in satisfaction of the debt without a court order. 

And please remember that any and all comments above are subject to the overriding advice of getting a lawyer in your jurisdiction before taking any action as to the disposition of the customer's goods! 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Now that I think about it.....if you talk to a Lawyer, find out what his fee is. You may be better off just telling the guy to come pick up his wood and chalk this incident up to experience. 

[Delawhere Jack]

Another thing to consider, how much does this guy owe you? Would it work out better to offer a reduced bill just to put this issue to rest? If you pursue the full amount, how much time is that going to take you away from milling?

It might be in your best interest to take a reduced payment and just be done with this guy.

[beenthere]

My suggestion is to simply put the information down on paper and send it, rather than conversing about it on the phone. Register it if you wish.

The written information may just represent your side if it comes to that, but hopefully it doesn't.

If elevating the arm twisting later, then at least you have more than "you said, he said" and it is dated material.

Lawyers will likely not give you advice without a charge. If it comes to that, then you can weigh the costs to persue. 

Just hope you can get payment without any more "hang-ups" as that allows the person to be in charge.

[SPD748]

Now here is an area I know something about...

If it is not in writing, it did not happen.

When it comes to court, if you remember the previous statement, you will build a stronger case for yourself almost every time.

"He said" or "He told me" are legally hearsay. As such, they are legally inadmissible. Writing, writing, writing...

Phones are great for short, non-legally binding conversations. Everything else needs to be said in the written word.

-lee

[customsawyer]

Brace yourself there is a good chance you  are going to take one in the kister.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Brace yourself there is a good chance you  are going to take one in the kister.

Pow!   Right in the Soup Coolers!  :D :D :D

[red oaks lumber]

give some time then if nothing happened call him and find out if he plans on picking up and paying if he bawks offer him this proposal. you take the wood for the sawing bill and you wont persue legal matters.
more times than not he'll just let you have the wood.

[DouginUtah]

You need to be aware that in most small claims courts you will not be able to collect lawyer fees, just the money owed.

[jdonovan]

hopefully you have a contract that spells out what happens in this situation. If not I'd start with a lawyer.

If you hope to recoup any costs you have to make sure you do the right things, at the right times and have documentation to prove it.

Do the wrong things, and YOU could wind up owing HIM money. Plus his lumber.

You don't need the lawyer to do anything at this stage other than advise you on how to proceed.

[AdamT]

Thanks for all the advice everyone! I will draft up a letter and send it both ways. Certified and regular post mail. It's not necessarily the money that ticks me off the most, it's the principal. I sold him a service, and busted my tail to get the job done for him. I also had to postpone a few saw jobs as a result, losing more money.

I told him from the original phone call what we need to do to make this possible. After he found the logs just up the road from me, I offered to look at them prior to him purchasing them. Well he got what he paid for, yet I received the blame. Anyways....

I don't want to involve lawyers. It's not
worth it to have them involved. No offense to any lawyers! Just saying.

It's the first time I've had this happen, probably won't be the last either...

[Leigh Family Farm]

Keep us updated on how things turn out.

[Cedarman]

If you haven't done so, take pictures of the logs and the lumber you have sawn.  Take some pictures with a tape measure showing sizes, diameters and lengths.

[Woodey]

If you have his personal cell phone, send him a text, you might make some head way without him cussing and hanging up on you. Also you will have a copy of your discussion on your phone if you need it.

[Leigh Family Farm]

Nice idea about the txts. A lot of people I know forget that texts can be saved for a long time. Just make sure your phone, like Blackberrys, doesn't delete the texts after 90 days.

[Brad_bb]

Don't accept partial payment.  If you do, a court or judge will consider it paid in full (you accepted partial payment as payment in full), and you won't see any more money and you'll have to give up the material.

Do any of you custom sawyers use a standard form with customers to describe the job, and how the customer will be charged and the required payment method, terms, and time table?  A form with the rules you work by and what they agree to, sort of like what many mechanics make you sign before they do the work?

[grweldon]

I asend one certified and also one non certified.  The reason is simple.  If the postal service tries to deliver and they are not there, they can ignore the notice and after so many days, the letter is returned to you.  At this point, you are now out the extra money plus, your letter has not been received by the customer.

I went through this a year ago and sure enough, the certified letter was returned to me because no one picked it up at the post office.  Just because it is certified, doesnt mean they will pick it up.

Good advice.  I would actually just dispense with the certified letter and send multiple copies of the letter at different dates.  I NEVER go to the post office to get a registered letter.  Think about it.  Have you ever had anything good come your way in a registered letter?  Doubtful... why go out of your way to pick it up?  Of course I'm assuming you live in a rural area and the mail isn't delivered to your door...

[Brucer]

A few thoughts from a very wise man.

"Problems like this develop not because of the personalities involved, but because of the situation. You want one thing, the customer wants something else, and there doesn't seem to be a compromise you can both live with."

"When you start thinking that the customer is a bad buy, ask yourself if he might be thinking the same thing about you. That leads you into the 'blame game' and that's a game that has no winners."

"The minute you realize you are in a situation that has no satisfactory compromise, stop talking."

Registered letters, letters from lawyers, civil litigation -- none of these will solve the problem. At best they may get you some of your money. At the end, neither party is going to be truly happy.