Plank flooring

[bman]

I got a post about this over in the drying forum so forgive the redundancy if youve been there. I cut about 1500 sq ft of plank flooring for my project and am mulling over my installation options and want to share my thoughts and get your responses/opinions. Said flooring is 1" thick by 8"-12" wide by 25' long Doug fir and will be screwed to the slab sub floor thru the face using counter sunk concrete screws with plugs. Will install 15lb roofing felt between  concrete and planks. There is also a plastic VB under the slab now. Planks will be square edged and butted tight. Have wondered about using a suitable colored flexable urethane sealant (Vulkum) between but edges to fill any crack/gap, my thereoy being that in winter the urethane will "stretch" and remain attached to both edges and continue to fill the void caused by seasonal gapping? I also have 1.5" thick planks for a loft deck that will serve as the deck floor and lower floor ceiling so gapping is much more a concern there as I dont want dust and such filtering down to the lower living space. I am concerned about shock loads and vibrations causing the screws to loosen there hold in the concrete over time as there is no "give" between steel screw and concrete, hve wondered about using a zink or plastic insert to provide some "cushion"  I am trying to keep the installation somewhat simple and straight forward so a rustic appearance is OK with me......just gotta sell the wife on it.
Your comments? Thanks bman

[HARLEYRIDER]

how long has the slab been down? do a Calcium Chloride Vapor Emission Test before before you install wood over it. I've never heard of screwing direct to the concrete. I think any moisture or sweating from the concrete would follow the screw, and cause black rings at each screw/peg. Glue down is aacceptable instalation...using a moisture curing urethane adhesive (like Bostik BST), which also is an excellent moisture barrier. But, it can be a messy install if you never did it, and difficult if there is alot of bow to these planks.
Another option is nail/screw  to 2x4 sleepers 16"oc. Milling a half-lap
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Or T&G
would be a good idea for two reasons....you can use a flooing gun, and pound the planks tight (if bowed), and it gives your vulkun a bottom (if you use it) Chinking would have more flexability, but might be too soft, and collect dirt.
I would deffinately half-lap or T&G the loft floor

where can you get vulkum?  It seems like they outlawed the stuff, because its so harmful to your health.

My sisters house has 12"pine square edge  on 2x4 sleepers 24"oc (screwed to concrete) with foam between the sleepers.  the problem with this is the sleeper spacing. when you step between the sleepers barefoot, planks deflect, and sorta pinch your foot.

[Jim_Rogers]

My first comment is about the second floor decking.
If you are concerned about dirt or dust from above then don't use butt edge lumber. Either create a tongue and groove joint or a simple half lap, know as ship lap. This will prevent anything from the second floor passing through the gaps to the first floor. If using tongue and groove sometimes the joint is accented by using tongue and v-groove. It makes a very nice look, when you're on the first floor and look up. Also this type of floor can be blind nailed through the tongue to the joists and the tongue and groove helps support the floor between joists.

I don't know what this building is going to be, but if it's a house/home you may want to consider some of these methods/ideas.

Sometimes attaching a layer of nailers first to the concrete and then the flooring to the nailers is done.
I don't know where you're building so you could add insulation between the flooring and the concrete if needed. I would also add a vapor barrier between the concrete and the flooring before you place down any wood product (I guess that's what the felt is for). And if you're in an area where there are strict code rules they may not allow the wood to be attached to the concrete unless it's Pressure treated. You may have to add the layer of pressure treated nailers to comply.

I can't comment on the fasteners as I don't have any experience with them.....

Good luck...

Jim Rogers

[Raphael]

  I'd go with sleepers on the slab as well and probably lay them on sillseal or some other moisture barrier.
If this is a living/heated structure I'd run pex tubing (radiant heat) between the sleepers.  It's a wonderful way of heating (especially for bare feet on a cold morning) and will help dry any moisture that's wicked to your sleepers.

Jim -  What would be your preferred method (nail size/type etc.) for blind nailing the tongue on 2x T&G flooring?

I've got 12ft. end matched 2x6 T&G boards for our second floor so I expect I'll have some challenges squeezing out the curves and getting them fully seated into the previous board.

[Jim_Rogers]

When we're attaching the tongue and v-groove planks to joists and there is no wall sheathing on the frame; we've hung a pipe clamp over the deck and pulled the wayward board into line and then nailed it off. The clamp gets longer as the room gets wider, and sometimes you have to add extensions onto the end of the pipe, using collars and another length of pipe.
If the deck is going to be covered with another floor, then you can nail a temporary block to the floor in a position to use a shorter clamp. Then remove the temporary block, leaving only a couple of nail holes.
This temp block system sometimes tips the floor board up as it is pulled in to be careful doing this method.

We usually start at one end and work down the plank pulling it in, and nailing it off, as we go.

When there is a wall there and you can use a clamp, one way is to nail another block onto the joist near the edge of the board to be moved, and using a spacer block cut out of a mating t&g piece(to protect the edge of the piece being installed) and pry the wayward board into line with a long crow bar.
(If you need a drawing of how to do this let me know and I'll create one and post it).

I've used just regular 4" long nails, as most of my work has been with building sheds and outbuildings.

When I get more info on nails I'll post it....
Hope this helps...

Jim Rogers

[bman]

As it now stands I am pretty much committed to attaching directly to the slab as the exterior doors are in and some of the interior door openings are framed so as to nix the sleeper idea.  The slab was poured last summer and was enclosed over the winter. I think I can beat the moisture problem simply by adding sealant to each screw shank as it is driven in. Can someone point me in the right direction as to the basic method to put half laps or V groove and tongue in each peice? router and jig? table saw and dado? These are 25' planks. Thanks bman

[footer]

Have you thought about gluing down the floor to the concrete?
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/sawdry.pl?read=465093

[bman]

Thanks footer. I have discarded the idea of gluing as the slab is somewhat rough I don't think I could get proper contact. Also due to the width of planks and the inevitable cupping that will occur I thought mechanically fastening would allow me to pull the cup down flat...my theory. I now live in a pole barn we built about 5 years ago with a similar slab sub floor. Most the living space is carpet so no big deal except in the kitchen and bath. There I screwed down shop board and trowled the joints and it worked excellent. I did lay down sheet plastic between slab and shop board of course and have had no moisture problems so I thought this should work on planks as well!

[mikeandike]

bman,

What's "shop board"?

[bman]

Maybe Im calling it the wrong term but thats what I refer to cabinet grade partical board as, cause you use it in like a cabinet "shop"? :-\

[beenthere]

Sounds like what we call "underlayment".  :

[bman]

In my vast experience of wandering the Isles at the big box stores I believe underlayment is a coarse material where as the shop stuff is made of a smoother finer material, its heavyer and denser.  Heavyier?heavyerer? well its just darn heavy. Cant remember why I used it, I think I found some cheap at a bargain type surplus store. 

[beenthere]

Not at all sure what you mean by "course material" but underlayment is used directly under vinyl flooring, carpet, and some of the laminated flooring products so its' surface needs to be quite smooth, and free of holes. The underlayment goes over the floor sheathing which is fastened to the floor joists.

Some concrete board products are used under ceramic tile as underlayment.  Underlayment is also used to build up a floor to match full thickness hardwood flooring when vinyl is applied. 

Hope this helps.

Fill us in on what the Box Stores call "shop board".  I am curious too.    Maybe some of the pressed fiber (called plywood in our Menards stores  : ) panel products are similar to your shop board product.

[solodan]

I would also agree about making the second floor shiplap. Also another tip is to leave a longer tongue on the top tounge to ensure a tight fit. Are you planning on sanding in place? This generally closses all the small gaps when the finish is applied. 8) I prefer glue down. I have never had a problem with wide boards cupping while glued down. I have had boards cup when T-nailed at the tongue, and even face nailed. :-\   A good glue to use for wood floors is Bostick. It is not cheap, or fun to trowel for that matter, but it leaves a nice solid feeling floor.
Just my 2 cents.

[srjones]

Do ya mean MDF?  Medium Density Fiberboard.

http://www.design-technology.org/mdf.htm

[ohsoloco]

I was thinking MDF too  :P

[bman]

MDF, Thats it! Dont know why I couldnt remember the term. Now I believe there is a "shop" grade (finer wood particals so as to be smoother) and underlayment where the particals are more like small flakes, not to be confused with OSB. Gees I hope I didnt just step in something. Yep solo, it will be sanded in place, but I just cant get used to the glue down idea. Maybe I just like to use three "C" clamps when one will do but I would feel better if those boards are anchored with steel. What do you do if you have a board that has cup to it while installing? I cant see a way to pull it flat short of mechanically drawing it down. Thats a good idea about making the top tounge a little longer, will have to remember that. Any suggestions as to methods for cutting said lap joints?

[Jim_Rogers]

Raphael:
I got some nail info...
My friend here near me uses 16 penny ring shank galvanized nails. These are loose nails that you install with a hammer. They measure 3 1/2" in length. He installs two nails through the face of the planks not blind nailing them as he likes to set them in from the edges, on 6" wide and 8" wide planks.
He dropped off some samples here for me to see.
Also, with these where some 16 penny nails that are for a stick nail gun that have a spiral shank. The measure the same 3 1/2" and are spaced touching each other in the clip so that they have only part of the  head to be hit by the driver. Installed again through the face of the plank as most of this flooring will be covered by some other finish floor material, whether it is carpet or wood....

bman:
is this flooring going to be planned both sides?

If so then it's just a matter of setting up a table saw to first cut all the boards to the same width or to a standard set of widths. Such as 6" rough sawn boards cut back to 5 3/4" or 5 1/2", or 8" rough sawn boards back to 7 3/4" or 7 1/2". Then once all the floor boards are sized, you can use a table saw with a dado head set up. This dado head should be made to be the width of the lap. You'll probably need a piece of wood again the metal fence so the saw doesn't cut the metal by accident. Then you align the side of the dado blades with the surface of the wooden table saw fence. And set the height to be on half the thickness of your stock. Then just run one edge down the fence and cut the rabbit along one side.
Then flip the board and run another rabbit down the other opposite edge and opposite face.
Like this:





(If you need a larger image send me a email with your regular email address, and I'll send you one.)

If the stock is only going to be planned on one side then you may have to do it a bit differently as the rough side shouldn't be put down against the table and used as a reference face.....

You can also do the edges with a router once they are sized to a straight and uniform width.

Hope this helps.

Good luck with your project.

Jim Rogers

[scsmith42]

You can get premium quality, 3-1/2" spiral shank nails for an air nailer  from Maze Nails (http://www.mazenails.com/).  They are a little pricy, but a significantly better nail than your average nail-gun nail.

Most nail houses only stock up to 3-1/4" for air nailers, and the shank size is smaller than the Maze nail shanks.

Good luck.

Scott

[Raphael]

You can get premium quality, 3-1/2" spiral shank nails for an air nailer  from Maze Nails (http://www.mazenails.com/).  They are a little pricy, but a significantly better nail than your average nail-gun nail.

Most nail houses only stock up to 3-1/4" for air nailers, and the shank size is smaller than the Maze nail shanks.

Good luck.

Scott

Thanks Scott,
  I'll take a look at their site, I'm still leaning towards blind nailing for the initial attachment.

Raphael:
I got some nail info...
My friend here near me uses 16 penny ring shank galvanized nails. These are loose nails that you install with a hammer. They measure 3 1/2" in length. He installs two nails through the face of the planks not blind nailing them as he likes to set them in from the edges, on 6" wide and 8" wide planks.

 My original Idea was to blind nail the floor in place and then go back and face nail it with "antique" square nails at my leasure.
Any suggestions on the size/type of finish nail I can blind nail with and reasonably expect the planking to hold until I add these face nails?

 My neighbor was showing me his 1x T&G Ash flooring (from his own trees).  He pre drilled before face nailing w/ square nails, it looks really nice, no cupping and only one miner expansion buckle (which brings up a question).  Have you ever dealt with a sub baseboard wiring chase along side 2X flooring?  I'm wondering how much extra I should allow to keep expansion from crushing my wires.  My thinking was that I'd cut the lower lip off the groove side of that first (or last) plank to create a rabbet that the wire could sit in when the floor was fully expanded.

 Pulling the flooring into position with bar or pipe clamps makes a lot of sense but I'm still debating the pro's and con's.  I've got stress skin walls in place so to pull I'd have to start along the west side of the center bay (we're only flooring 2/3 of the second floor to start) and work towards the east wall.  This could become problematic when that last plank run has to go down (especially if I want that rabbet).  My alternative concept is to push with reciprocal wedges (one clamped or screwed to the 5x7 joist to give the other something to work against).

PS: I just heard from Bryan Felice, he's got a Mafell mortiser a 16" Makita and is currently cutting timbers for a 24'x40' barn/community center (excavation starts Wednesday)...  Sounds like he's hit the ground running, he's also doing a 24'x36' horse barn.

[scsmith42]

Raphael - you're welcome!

ps - maze also sells the "antique looking" square nails.

If you want a square nail with a raised head to protrude from the floor, talk to a farrier and get some horse shoeing nails for a draft horse.  It's difficult to describe the head; the closest that I can come is that it looks kinda like a hip roof on a rectangular house.

[bman]

Thanks Jim; In response to your questions let me give a little detail. The planks were cut with a chainsaw mill and are not all the same width, I cut them 25' long so as to span the width of the house with one board thereby allowing variouse widths to be used without issues of matching but end widths. The planks are not planned on either side, the plan being to install as is and sand smooth. I was very careful to set up each cut to the exact thickness so they are very consistent that way. Some boards have wane on one edge, some have a little "run out" on one edge and as such will need to be trimmed straight. Your suggestion about the table saw/dado sounds good , just not sure how difficult it might be with the length of the planks. I had thought if there is a method to run a saw/router along the board rather than vice versa it might be easier. The loft planks are much thicker, I think I stated in error they were 1.5", actualy they are 1.75" thick, cut the same way as the 1' stuff, 25' long and all the more cumbersome to handle. My original thought was to snap a chalk line on any edge that was less that straight and use a steel straight edge and skill saw to edge em straight. Once I get one good edge I can use a fence attachement on the skill saw and trim the other edge if neccessary and then on to cuttin the ship lap or T&G or whatever arrangement I use to join the edges. Does any of that sound good or am I headed for heartburn ? Suggestions, comments :-\

[Jim_Rogers]

bman:
If you have a table saw, it could work if you create some saw horses with rollers on top to support the infeed and outfeed sides of the saw. Also add a long piece of wood for a fence. The longer the stock the longer the fence should/could be. The longer fence will help you keep things straight.

If you do use the skill saw and straighten your boards that way, that would work ok.
If you wanted to use a router with a bit and a router fence you could run that down one edge creating the rabbit for the lap but that will reference off one face and if that face isn't smooth then it could create a rabbit of different depths.
You could turn your boards up on edge once straightened and then run the router down the edge but that will be a little more difficult to hold the router truly straight up. Unless you clamp several boards together to get a wide base for the router to ride on.....

Good luck.

Jim Rogers

[Raphael]

I've straightened 2x framing material using a combined approach, skillsaw to cut the first side and then run it through the table saw to get it to working width.  The only thing different from Jim's suggestion is that I'm the infeed table and my wife is the outfeed table.  ;)

[woodbowl]

My original Idea was to blind nail the floor in place and then go back and face nail it with "antique" square nails at my leasure.
Any suggestions on the size/type of finish nail I can blind nail with and reasonably expect the planking to hold until I add these face nails?

If you want a square nail with a raised head to protrude from the floor, talk to a farrier and get some horse shoeing nails for a draft horse.

I was thinking of a rectanglar head, blount tip, taperd shank concrete nail. I'm wondering if they have enough grip though, over the long haul.

[Raphael]

I was thinking of a rectanglar head, blount tip, taperd shank concrete nail. I'm wondering if they have enough grip though, over the long haul.

That's the antique looking sort of nail Scott mentioned was available at Maze, they are manufactured by Tremont Nails.
If you can use 50lbs Maze has got a heck of a good price.  They are supposed to have better holding strength than hardened wire nails, and I've had better luck with not fracturing the heads off when driving them.  They should work for face nailing flooring to timber as well, they are basically a hardened cut nail.

I just ordered my size 16 antique cut nails directly from Tremont; 20lbs. (680nails) for $99.71 shipped, the Maze price on 50lbs. of hardened nails is ~$129 plus shipping so if you can use them it's the way to go.