All electric car - model 60/60?

[Bibbyman]

All electric car - model 60/60?

Again I'm being lazy.  I looked over tall the topic titles and didn't find anything like my question so I just started a new topic.

Mary and I were talking over all the alternative fuel, multi fuel, hybrid gas/electric, etc. cars and I made the comment..... "Why don't they just drop all this hybrid stuff and build an affordable, usable electric only car?" 

We went on to talk about it.  Instead of being something that would replace the PU and SUV and whatever else you owned,  it would just be a basic, short run alternative vehicle.  A basic "grocery getter".

I'm thinking something the size of a PT Cruiser or maybe a Mini Cooper that could hit 60mph for a range of say 60 miles. 

I'm thinking it would come with recharging options like solar panels or wind generator where a user could recharge the batteries in say one day. Or it could be plugged into the gird. 

I'm thinking it should be available in some bare bones utility model at say $5,000 new.   Basically an upscale golf cart.

Is there anything out there like this?  Is there anyone working on one?

[Fla._Deadheader]

All new components, Batteries motor, and motor control system would cost that much or more. Lots of Backyarders building them, though.

[Gary_C]

From what I know, the problem with battery only powered cars is the batteries. The old lead-acid batteries that have been the standard for years are so bulky and heavy they would have required a truck chassis to haul them around and their life was not good on those high discharge/recharge cycles. I know they have greatly improved battery technology but I suspect the energy storage problem is still holding back the all electric car.

The other problem facing battery powered vehicles is shown by the electric forklifts. Battery maintenance is so important to battery powered forklifts and the battery chargers are very heavy duty 3 phase units to produce the currents to recharge those batteries. And the battery powered forklifts do not create a big problem if they run out of juice as they are confined to a small area and can be either towed back to the charger station or a fresh battery can be brought to the dead forklift. Also the best battery life can be obtained by rotating batteries so as to allow a cool down or rest period after use. while that is not a problem for light duty cars, the rest time is not guaranteed and could create unsatisfied owners.

I know that hydrogen storage is one of the problems still facing the fuel cell vehicle.

[Kevin_H.]

Bombardier made something like that a couple of years ago, I think the top speed was something like 25 mph, batteries again was the down fall.


http://www.greencar.com/features/bombardier-nv/?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=ssp&utm_campaign=yssp_features

[Dave Shepard]

The weight was one of the problems we faced when we built our electric truck. I don't remember how many batteries there were, but the truck, a gutted S-10, weighed over 4,000 pounds. We later converted it to a propane powered hybrid, raced it in the Tour de Sol, and kicked butt! We were entry #96 Tour de Sol

I have been a big fan of using an electric as a vehicle in addition to the main family vehicle. I see a lot of families that have two big SUV's and one or both parents commuting. If one could use an electric for commuting and errands, and try to drive the SUV as little as possible, I think it could make a big difference, someone might have to put their ego away though. :


Dave

[Tom]

I just don't understand why they don't just use levitation.  It would be so simple.   Just push a button and go up, and push a stick in the direction you wanted to go.  

I think I'll just sit here and wait for a levitation car  

[Mooseherder]

PBS had a special on last nights Nova.
We are a few years away.  You can view the segments here.
Carbon Fiber is the one of the answers.  He had the host pick up the side frame of the car.  It only weighed a couple pounds but is stronger than metal.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/car/program.html

[beenthere]

...............Carbon Fiber is the one of the answers.  He had the host pick up the side frame of the car.  It only weighed a couple pounds but is stronger than metal.
...............

Hang tight in a wind storm, or when a semi catches up with ya.... 8) 8)  ....or maybe that is the "levitation" that Tom is waiting for...

[Mooseherder]

...............Carbon Fiber is the one of the answers.  He had the host pick up the side frame of the car.  It only weighed a couple pounds but is stronger than metal.
...............

Hang tight in a wind storm, or when a semi catches up with ya.... 8) 8)  ....or maybe that is the "levitation" that Tom is waiting for...

There is always a trade off eh? :D

[Paul_H]

I think I'll just sit here and wait for a levitation car  

Tom,
I wouldn't mind a leviathan car too but with the price of gas these days,I think they've gone the way of the dinosaurs.

See monster below..

[Bibbyman]

What about the new lithium batteries?

They are building crossover electric and engine cars - how could that be economical when you've got to support two power systems?

As we were out sawing, I got to thinking that Wal-Mart is missing a great market opportunity.  They could have these cars built in China or India where they don't care about pollution laws and market them here at Wal-Mart.  Then they could have parking spaces at their store locations with re-charge stations.  A customer could park, plug in and run a credit card through the vending machine and then go shopping. 

[Bibbyman]

A little search on Yahoo and I found this..


Hybrids? Some opt to go all-electric.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Biggest problem is, producing the new batteries is NOT environmentally sound. LOTS of bad things go into the ground or air.

  Somewhere, I saw a photo of a battery producing plant in Canuckistan, that looked like a moon scape. Everything dead over several hundred acres. 

  Also, wait till you have to replace those batteries.    Sticker shock will bite ya BIG time.  : : :

  Storage of energy is NOT the way to go. Educating those that want alternatives IS the smart thing to do. Don't expect Govt. or Corps, or Oil to help save energy.  : :

  Driven sensibly, I would bet that Caddy PaulH posted, got close to 20 MPG in it's day, even though it weighed 5000+ pounds.

  New engines are needed, but, as soon as someone comes up with one, it's bought out and never makes the Market  : : ??? ???

[Furby]

They are building crossover electric and engine cars - how could that be economical when you've got to support two power systems?

In the case of my Mom's Prius, the batteries start the car moving and run it until torque requirements reach a certain point OR the batery level drops to a certain point.
Then the gas engine kicks in either to assis the electric or go to straight gas and also recharge the battery.
The battery level is always changing, but it's programmed so that the gas engine doesn't allow the battery level to get too low, as that would add to the wear and tear on the battery.
There are savings there, they are small but add up over time.
The gas engine is smaller than a regular car engine, lighter weight and less material in it.
There isn't a huge bank of batteries like a straight electric vehicle would require.
While they are a little more complexed than a standard car, a large part of the system is in the computer.



I've been trying to find the $ to convert a car I have in the garage for several years now.
I keep getting closer, but not close enough.
If I could get something together that would do at least 55 mph and have a range of 50+ miles on a charge with gas engine back up to keep from getting stranded, I would be able to cover roughly 90+ % of my current vehicle useage.

[Grawulf]

We have a dealership for Zencar and Zaptruck in our area - haven't seen any on the road yet but they must be moving them pretty quickly. Lots full at the beginning of the month and pretty much empty by the end......Zaptrucks look like something out of the Mr Bean series......     http://www.zapworld.com/automotive-sales

[Bibbyman]

The ZAP truck looks interesting.  It's about half the range and half the top speed I'd want and at double the price I was thinking.  But it's something.  Is it street legal? 

We have some little gas engine trucks sold around here that look like that but are sold off road use only.  My brother-in-law bought one at a yard sale!  He uses it around the farm.

[Grawulf]

Bibby
Yea - they're legal - just got legalized in Canukistan too so you can travel across the border and plug in to da nearest hydrodam......25 miles doesn't seem like much, does it.
Don't think I'd want to go even 40 mph on their three-wheeler. 

[Tom]

See monster below..

To quote....er......paraphrase Crocodile Dundee, "now, that's a car".  ;D

Yep, Deadheader, before the electronic technicians got hold of auto engines, they generally got around 16-20 MPG and protected you from impact too, even without safety belts and air bags.   'Course we didn't put the miles on them that we put on a car today and a head-on could still ruin your day. :D

[LeeB]

How old is that picture Paul? Looks like the car in the backgroung is prettyolg too and I haven't seen a Shakey's Pizza in a good long while.

[Paul_H]

I'm not sure Lee,I just borrowed it but I thought the same thing when I saw Shakey's.I think I was only 12 or younger the last time I ate at one.

[beenthere]

Look for one near you...there is one in West Allis, WI

http://www.shakeys.com/HOME/tabid/54/Default.aspx

They make great pizza...least I like it.

[Kcwoodbutcher]

GM made the EV-1 starting in the late nineties into the early 2000's. It seemed to work fine, had good speed and close to a 100 mile range. There was a decent demand for it and initially they marketed it aggressively.  It started with lead acid batteries but was going to be upgraded with lithium ion ones. All the sudden they yanked it from the market and crushed them all. ( they actually never sold any they were all leased ). People were more than willing to buy them but GM would not allow it.  This all came about because California mandated that a certain amount cars sold in the state had to be all electric.  Well the lobbyist played hell with the law, sued the state and eventually won ( guess who they worked for? ). GM shelved they project and eventually sold the technology to guess who ?-- Texaco

[Gary_C]

GM made the EV-1 starting in the late nineties into the early 2000's.  GM shelved they project and eventually sold the technology to guess who ?-- Texaco

GM's motives and dedication were certainly questioned in the EV-1 vehicle project, but they officially ended the project in 2003, while Texaco was bought out and merged with Chevron back in 2001.

According to GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner, the worst decision of his tenure at GM was "axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids. If we could turn back the hands of time, we could have had the Chevy Volt 10 years earlier."

[StorminN]

Bibbyman,

All-electric cars do exist, but not for $5,000 new... as Deadheader said, the electric components alone cost at least that much or more... and that's with old technology lead-acid batteries. It's true that the batteries are the most limiting factor, but with today's lithium batteries, a car can easily be built with the range and power you spec... the problem is the PRICE of those lithium batteries. You know how much they want for replacement lithium batteries for your cordless drill ($90?), now picture trying to buy enough batteries to move a car!

We had all-electric cars here in the US over 10 years ago (actually, there were some 100 years ago, but let's skip those). Kcwoodbutcher mentioned the GM EV1... the original EV1's had lead acid batteries, later ones had NiMh batteries. As he also mentioned, GM did not sell, but leased those cars... and when California repealed the zero-emission CARB standard, GM let the leases run out, took the EV1's back and crushed almost all of them. You should check out the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car", it does a decent job of telling that story and more.

There were other all-electric cars 10 years ago... Ford made a Ranger EV, same chassis as a normal Ranger pickup, but all-electric drivetrain. The NiMh version did about 65 miles at 65 mph. Most of these trucks were leased and recalled, like the GM EV1. GM did an S10 pickup EV, the NiMh version had about a 90 mile range.

The Toyota RAV4EV was a great EV. The RAV4EV had NiMh batteries, a 100 mile range, and went 75 mph. There are still some of these around. At the end of their leases, Toyota sold them to the people who wanted to buy them, and Toyota continues to sell parts for the cars. There are two that I know of in Washington state, and one is owned by a man in my town. They are rare and very sought after now, I think new they were about $30k and now used ones go for twice that. Just replacing the battery pack would set you back about $25k.    The  RAV4EV Wikipedia page has some info on the NiMh batteries and the problems with the Texaco patents.

I think we're going to see a whole slew of new cars in the next couple of years. Some will be the NEV's (Neighborhood Electric Vehicles, which I think are limited to 35mph) and others will be full-speed cars. I've started to see a few of the Zenn cars around here... one of the mail ladies in my town delivers the mail in one, and I've counted about five in the area. People have already started talking about the Think car, too... 110 mile range and 65mph, but "under $25k". Sounds steep to me, but maybe it won't look so bad when gas is $6.50 a gallon. At least it's not the $100k that they are charging for the Tesla... one heck of a car, though...

-N.

[ellmoe]

   Back in about 1986 I bought a Ford Tempo diesel. It had a little 3 cylinder diesel engine. I consistantly got 45+mpg. (I believe they put the same engine in the Ford Ranger PUP back then.) The car was not one for acceleration. However, if I was'nt careful on the Interstate I would find myself cruising along at 85mph without knowing I had been accelerating. It would just creep up in speed. The tank was 15 gal, almost 700 miles per tank. I was doing alot of driving then and the car "made" its monthly payment. The engine exhaust appeared to be no more noxious than a gas car. With that mileage I think the pollution per mile would be similar to a gas car. I believe the market killed that car. When I tried to sell it I took a beating. No one wanted a diesel car. People still remembered those big gas engines that GM converted to diesel. With their record of unreliability, diesel cars of any kind were not desireable. If the government allow it I bet they could sell a ton of them now.

Mark