Rift sawn??? How to???

[Bibbyman]

We've sawed a million or more board feet of grade lumber – flat sawn,  I'd recon.  And I've even sawn some quarter sawn.  Then we've sawn untold thousands of bf of farm lumber just thru and thru.

But I ain't never been asked to rift saw any lumber.  I know what it is,  but why would someone what it?  What would it be good for? (over flat or quarter).  How would you saw an oak log to maximize the rift sawn lumber?



Bro. Tom's excellent diagram

[Larry]

Simple esthetics.  I'll try to explain best I can in terms of a raised panel door.  If the rails and stiles are rift sawn they will be more or less bland.  With this in mind the rails and stiles will not detract from the raised panel which should be the center of focus.  If the rails and stiles were quarter sawed or flat sawn their flash could detract or shift focus from the panel.

There are few other instances I can think of to use rift sawn for design purpose but I did a bad enough job explaining the use in a raised panel door.

Never thought of how to maximize yield of rift sawn as the cabinet boys just pick and choose the grain style they want out of the stack.

[EZ]

You are right, Larry. But about 20 years ago the wood-workers change their mind about the rift sawn lumber because of the decrease in moisture in the houses now adays. With every house or almost every house in the states have air condi tioning which keeps on drawing the moisture out of the rift sawn and other lumber. The rift sawn lumber they found would peel as the quarter and flat sawn holds together alot better.
EZ

[HORSELOGGER]

swing mills and twin blade circle saws actually create a fair amount of rift lumber by the way a log is normally broken down. I have never q sawn on a band mill, but could you quarter the log, put the quarter on a shim so that most of the rings are in the rift position, and not take the shim out like some of the pics I have seen where they put the shim in and out after every cut ?

[GHRoberts]

Rift sawn makes all four sides of a square look the same. This is often important for legs.

Quarter saw a 1/4 log from the center out (1 slice, roll, 2 slices, roll, 2 slices, roll, 1 slice) until you start to get rift. Saw what is left without rolling.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  The easist way to make rift sawn lumber is to knock off 4 slabs and start sawing top to bottom with out turning.  You will produce flat sawn at first and then rift sawn and it will give over to qsawn and back to flat on the bottom. (this is why swingers make so much of it as they saw top to bottom)  If the log is large enough you may skip over the middle six inches which would produce the qsawn lumber and flip it and start from top to bottom again and produce a bit more flat and rift sawn lumber.
  Better yet call the tooth doctor up north and order a bunch of qsawn and you will get a wack of rift sawn. :D :D :D :D ;D (sorry I could not help myself)
ARKANSAWYER

[woodmills1]

I wasn't gonna but here goes


JUST QUARTER SAW IT BADLY!

[Paschale]

Rift sawn makes all four sides of a square look the same. This is often important for legs.

Is rift sawn grain the same thing as "bastard" grain?  In one of the woodworking magazines recently, they were talking about making legs uniform by utilizing what they termed bastard cutting or bastard grain.  This comment by GHRoberts makes me wonder if it's the same thing.  

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Same thing, Paschale.

  I like Arky's idea the best.  :D :D :D

[MemphisLogger]

I always thought bastard grain was when you had plain and rift in the same board and not centered/balanced.

But I still haven't figured all this lingo yet  ;D

[oakiemac]

I have had customers ask for rift sawn oak. I don't purposely saw it but my mill will produce some when I quater saw. I usually seperate it out and sell it as rift.
I actually like the look because it has straight grain without the ray flecks.

[TomFromStLouis]

I always thought bastard grain was when you had plain and rift in the same board and not centered/balanced.

But I still haven't figured all this lingo yet  ;D

I use the terms as above too Scott. Bastard sawn to me is a bit like Bibbyman's picture in the first post where the grain varies across the board. Rift is true diagonal grain viewed form the end.

I think of rift sawn first as leg stock. Shaping a cabriole leg from a 3x3 requires rift stock or else you get flat grain spots which detract from the sculptural form. Even a square leg benefits from being rift sawn for the same reason. 4/4 rift makes sense for rails and stiles for strongly grained wood like oak or ash.

[Tom]

That diagram is pretty much the modified quarter-sawing technique taught by Wood Mizer for bandsaw mills, Kirk.

[ArtieMax]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/reviews/hand-tools/how-to-replace-a-tools-wooden-handle
The reason is strength.

[Magicman]

Good Morning, ArtieMax, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum. 

It looks like you have been doing some reading, so how about an intro and sharing a bit about yourself and your lumber/sawing interest.

[LeeB]

Wow, old thread. A lot of names I haven't seen in a good while and one new one. Welcome Artie.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Rift sawn is a relatively new word.  Originally, there were only two grain patterns--quarter and flat.  The separation was 45 degrees.  Indeed, bastard sawn was when both grain patterns were in the same piece, so one did not know what to call it.  Even today, the NHLA Rules do not recognize rift sawn; they also recognize the grain pattern in the cuttings used for grainy and for quartersawn oak, etc. they require the ray fleck to be obvious...see the book for the actual description.  When you look at the national HARDWOOD MARKET REPORT, you will find that quarter and rift are put together in most cases, except that q-sawn white oak (for barrels especially) needs to be true quartersawn.  The drawing at the start of this posting is perfect.  Unfortunately, you can find on the Internet some postings that have the opposite description.

In the excellent sketch showing how to saw rift, you would find in a larger log (over 20") that the small width piece (at the corners) would be closer to flat sawn and the wide pieces near the center would be judged as quartersawn.  (Incidentally, I do believe that quartersawn gets its name from the fact that a log would be divided into four quarters, as the sketch shows.)  Because it is nearly impossible to get all rift sawn from a large log (over 15") using the pattern in the sketch and sawing lumber from the "white" section that is unmarked which would produce all quartersawn (and low grade unless ripped heavily), most sawmillers would combine quarter and rift.  Nevertheless, the sketch does show the most practical way to saw.  In your case, your customer should be willing to accept some q-sawn or else the yield will be half of normal...that is, sawing and selling only rift will have high waste and the customer may not like that.  Maybe you should show the customer this sketch (with additional pieces sketched in the center) and make sure he agrees.

Did you ever play baseball and did you hear that the trademark on the bat should be upwards?  That is so that the flat grain would also be up and you would hit with the quarter grain and the bat would not break AS EASILY.  Unfortunately, a lot of bats did not have the logo and the grain coordinated and also due to slope of grain along the length, the bat still broke.

WIth respect to LUMBER and not rounds, the difference between flatsawn and quartersawn (in addition to appearance) is:

*  Flatsawn shrinks and swells in thickness about half as much as quartersawn.  Quartersawn shrinks and swells in width about half as much as flatsawn.  (This can be important for exterior siding that is subject to frequent wetting and drying.  It can also be important for floors and other products that cannot tolerate much movement.)
*  Knots will be round or slightly oval with flatsawn, but will be long spike knots in quartersawn.  (Generally, spike knots lower the strength more than round knots.)
*  Shake and pitch pockets in the log will affect fewer pieces when manufacturing flatsawn than when manufacturing quartersawn.
*  When manufacturing flatsawn lumber, the yield of lumber from a log can be several percent to as much as 20% higher than when manufacturing quartersawn.
*  Flatsawing requires less technical and mechanical effort than quartersawing.
*  Flatsawn lumber is prone to cupping in drying. 
*  Quartersawn lumber is prone to side bend in drying.
*  Quartersawn wears better when used as a flooring material than flatsawn.
*  Flatsawn lumber, especially oak, is subject to surface checking, honeycomb (interior checks) and splitting (especially end splits) in drying, while quartersawn is not.
*  Flatsawn lumber dries up to 15% faster than quartersawn.
*  Quartersawn lumber will accentuate other grain patterns such as wavy grain and interlocked grain, but not birsdseye or fiddleback.

NOTE: The word "grain" has many different meanings.  (A split follows the grain, quartersawn grain, tight grain, smooth grain, etc.)

[petefrom bearswamp]

Doc, Regarding your comment on wooden bats, I seem to notice that the ML players sometimes don't observe the label up rule. Maybe the bats are mis labeled.
Wood bats especially the maple ones seem to break more often than in the past maybe the players are stronger.
Pete

[beenthere]

Wood bats especially the maple ones seem to break more often than in the past maybe the players are stronger.

The grain in maple is too difficult to see, compared to ash, so a number of bats from maple break due to slope of grain.

[Tree Feller]

If you take square, flat-sawn stock and saw a "diamond" from it, you will end up with straight (rift-sawn) grain on all four faces.

As was said, this is desirable in table legs or cabriole legs for both appearance and strength.



 

[terrifictimbersllc]

 
*  Quartersawn lumber is prone to side bend in drying.

What's the reason for this? Because of inclusion of juvenile wood on the inner edge of QS boards? Or is it a tendency even if the juvenile wood is carefully separated?

Next week I'll be QS'ing (Peterson)  a very large red oak log (44" x 24') into flooring. I want to minimize side bend after it gets out of the kiln, or else the flooring mill will waste off width and the yield will suffer.   Probably going to saw it as three 8-footers to minimize side bend.

[giant splinter]

Rift sawn boards are widely sought after by wooden boat builders for many reasons, this may be the most common application for this type of milled planks.

[SPIKER]

found this on utube today I watched it which was pretty good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVBsA1KbfY8&feature=player_detailpage

mm

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The leg idea is indeed correct from a visual point, but the overall strength is the same for the piece of wood.  Also, if it is turned into a round or oval, it makes no difference.  But, how much difference is there between q and f?  It is actually quite small.  The slope of grain effect is much larger.  That is why for maximum strength, the wood for bats, legs, handles, etc. is oftentimes first split in order to get the grain direction.  A split follows the grain.  Then saw parallel to the split.  If the grain is straight lengthwise, then for a bat, the orientation is not so critical, but it still matters a little.

The grain in maple is swirling, so you cannot get perfect slope of grain.

Note that if you hit a stick of wood a lot, it will shell.  Likewise, if you squeeze wood real hard, like in a handle, that will also weaken the wood.

Then there is the grain deviation at and in the vicinity of a knot, plus there is the weakening due to tension wood, compression wood and juvenile wood (first 15 years of growth for a log).  These three also cause warp, including side bend in q-sawn lumber.

All these other effects are often much greater than q vs. f.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

A few mistakes in the video...the first and second pieces that he calls flat sawn are really quarter and rift with only a small portion of flat sawn grain in tHe mid width of the piece.  His sawing pattern for quartersawn is really going to produce more pieces of rift, as he indicates near the end.  This diagram is, however, a commonly used technique when quarter and rift are both acceptable.  For more quartersawn and less rift, we would actually try to keep the saw kerf directed to the center as we work around the log...sort of like spokes on a wheel.

If you compare the grain for his first flatsawn piece (rip it down the middle into two pieces) and his first quartersawn piece, they are the same.  Yet he calls the one flatsawn and the other quartersawn.

[Bibbyman]

Must not be nothing on TV today to make an 8 year old topic about rift sawing so popular.

In the past 8 years no one has ask me to rift saw.

[Dodgy Loner]

I was thinking the same thing, Bibby. There is more discussion on this topic today than there was in the past 8 years :D But good discussion for sure. Many folks have made good suggestions as to where rift-sawn lumber is best used, but I'm still curious why your customer wanted so much rift-sawn oak. I suppose we'll never know. I always get plenty of rift-sawn material when I'm quartersawing to supply whatever needs I have.

[Bibbyman]

..but I'm still curious why your customer wanted so much rift-sawn oak.

My customers asking for rift sawn?  I said in my first and latest post that no one has ever asked me to rift saw. Not me.

[5quarter]

I'm posting without reading first, so someone may have already mentioned it, but rift is used exclusively for square tapered legs, casegood frames and any component that has 2 adjoining faces that will show. true rift has the same appearence on the face and edge grain. very necessary in furniture making. I often size up logs with regard to how much rift I can get out of it. I often cut 9/4, esp. when I can get perfect rift (45°), as that is the most useful to me and the furniture guys I've sold to.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I'm just glad Farmers don't use Rift for barn siding......

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The request for rift sawn is actually quite rare.  The common market prices and sales are for quarter and rift together.  As I think I mentioned, the NHLA does not have rift defined.

I worked for and with the furniture industry in Virginia for 17 years and I cannot recall any use or request for rift sawn lumber specifically.  Neither did they select rift from their incoming lumber.  This industry manufactured case goods, chairs, tables, reproductions, stair parts, kitchen cabinets, contract furniture, etc.  certainly small custom manufacturers will find specific uses for just rift, but it is a small market.

[KnotBB]

Under Western Lumber Grading Rules there is no "quarter sawn" lumber.  The closest thing is what is called "vertical grain".  The grade is mostly an appearance grade, there is no slope of grain requirement. The slope of the rings can go as high 60 degrees off of what you you would call perfect quarter sawn.  The higher the ring count the more slope the rings can have.  The criteria is "If it looks quarter sawn, it is quarter sawn"  I've sold rough sawn to re-manufactures on that basis.

On that basis with a swing blade you can cut an entire old growth fir quarter sawn (vertical grain) and never move the log or saw.

VG fir and western hemlock are used extensively in making traditional wooden doors, windows and for ladder stock because of the stability.

[WDH]

I like the linearity and straight lines of the growth rings in rift sawn lumber.  I have some oak wainscott and I like all the variation in appearance of the flatsawn, rift, and quartersawn boards on the wall.  Looks (and is) custom made rather than store-bought.

[beenthere]

KnotBB
You are talking softwood grades, right?

[captain_crunch]

Just take the word Gay and see how much meaning has changed in 30 years : : : !/4 sawn is verticle grain in old days the rest were boards

[Peter Drouin]

I have had guys want rift sawn w oak for wooden boats, they want a 45[growth rings] to the face only, now try to cut ALL the log [rift cut] not just some of it,  :D :D

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

KnotBB and others,
I am sorry that I was not totally clear.  Slope of grain (SOG) is a grading criteria where strength is an issue.  SOG  refers to the lengthwise deviation of grain and has nothing to do with quarter sawing  or flat sawing.   A few degrees of SOG (1 in 12) has a big effect on strength...much more than the issue about quartersawn or flatsawn grain strength.

I agree that VG is the regional term for quartersawn.  Even with VG, there is also a SOG concern, as well as compression wood, knots, etc.

[LeeB]

I though that SOG refered more to bastard grain than qs versus rs.?

[beenthere]

Two different "grains". Slope of grain (SOG) has to do with the fibers oriented lengthwise to the log or board,
whereas the other (bastard, quarter sawn, rift, flat, vertical) has to do with the annual ring orientation with respect to a board sawn from a log.

The spiral grain seen in a log on the surface is indication of SOG, for example.  Twist in a board results usually from SOG that isn't straight with the long axis of the tree.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The word "grain" has seven different meanings, so there is room for confusion indeed.  "Been there" has a good explanation of the two meanings in this discussion.

As another example, we sometimes call oak as having heavy grain, coarse grain, or just a grainy species, referring to the non-smoothness of the sanded surface.  I remember having to learn to write on a single sheet of paper on an oak desk...awfully hard to make your writing look smooth.  Kids today have it easy...in fact, I heard that they may not even have to learn to write cursive.  But back to the topic...Maple has a smooth grain.

[LeeB]

Most of them don't learn how to spell, let alone write in cursive.  :(

[KnotBB]

KnotBB
You are talking softwood grades, right?

Yes soft wood grades. 

The west has so little hard wood that there is no "ruling" body for grading hardwood.  There is no "book"  There is a Western Hardwood Assoc that does give classes in grading (sometimes) but mostly we "borrow" eastern grading verbiage. There are no inspectors that I know or have heard of. Much of what passes for grading comes out of the rules for western soft wood and they don't really apply to our hard woods.  The western hardwoods get relegated to the back porch.  The one exception I know of is red alder.  Special grading rules apply.
As an example:  Asking for quarter sawn Douglas fir is a nonsensical request.  No such thing.  And like wise it probably doesn't make any sense to ask for vertical grain oak. 

Don't get the wrong impression though. I have a standing order for quarter sawn tone woods and I understand what the customer wants.  We've talked about it and I'm not going to get picky because of terms.  If he wants quarter sawn old growth D.fir that's what he gets even if he can't show it to me in the grade book.

[ely]

first, i am glad to have the FF, i like these old topics, when i seen the post by Tom my heart gave a big jump... happy i can still enjoy his words on here.

as to the topic, i read a book once that said any board that had end grain from 90 -to 45 degree was quarter sawn and any that was not 45 was considered bastard cut, or rift sawn.

i probably do not adhere to many woodworking rules, because i grade lumber differently from others. its either qsawn, lumber, or propellers.
if the propellers are not too bad, they go inside the closets,if they are too bad i shorten them up for the stove. ;D

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

One issue is that a piece of lumber can have flat grain (0 to 45 degrees) and rift and quartersawn.  I have looked for a definition of bastard sawn and do not seem able to find an authoritative one.

Here is a picture of how to quartersaw; qsawn is the top back log.



 

[Jeff]

I think one should add, that Plain Sawn and Flat Sawn are two different terminologies as I understand it. Flat sawn is more a description of the lumber, where plain sawn is more of the process of the sawing. Plain sawing will/can still generate some quartersawn lumber. What I mean to say is, quarter sawn, can be plain sawn.

[Dodgy Loner]

..but I'm still curious why your customer wanted so much rift-sawn oak.

My customers asking for rift sawn?  I said in my first and latest post that no one has ever asked me to rift saw. Not me.

I misinterpreted your first post. The way you were asking questions made it sound like you had a new customer who wanted rift-sawn lumber.

[rmack]

This thread has filled in a lot of missing pieces for me, thanks everyone. :P

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

In most U.S. writing and speaking, the term used is flat sawing, while in Europe, Africa, and Canada writing and conversation, we more often see and hear the term plain sawing.  I cannot recall hearing flat sawing ever in Europe in my travels, but I did not live there.  Sometimes it is called slash sawing.  All three are synonymous.  The lumber produced is also called flatsawn or plainsawn.

Another variable term is live sawing versus through-and-thorugh sawing, both meaning the same technique.  Similarly, grade sawing and sawing-around are both the same.  The list goes on, probably due to regional differences that developed before national or global travel and communication was popular.  In 1978, William Dean published TERMS OF THE TRADE which had the vocabulary for  logging and lumbering industries.  It was revised in 1984.  Some of the terms in our industry are really weird and plentiful too.

[Jeff]

In an American High school shop class in the 70's, we were taught the term plain sawing. Perhaps not going to college, and going right on to working in a sawmill, perhaps I did not receive the proper re-education. The point I was getting at though, is that while plain sawing, there can be quarter sawn material generated.

[drobertson]

If I may pipe in, I have enjoyed the post.  And I have to say that my experience in sawing can be attributed to most of what gene W. has written since around 03'.  I studied, and listened to many wood workers while in the tooling trade, mainly injection molds.  And as we all know most of us come from a variety of backgrounds.  The issue with rift sawn, q-sawn and flat sawn or plain sawn,  depends solely on the one doing the finish work.  I feel we as sawyers should deliver the required product.  I have found in my experience, to give this type of product there will be waste. As will there be in q-sawn.  the main issue I have encountered is dealing with the side stress that comes from boards cut in this fashion.  I have learned how to manage it, but it comes with a loss in bd/log, now maybe I am just a dummy, most likely so, but the boards are straight, and the folks are happy.  whatever one wants I try to deliver. Nothing in life is guarenteed, except the end of it. Standards are in place to keep a status quo, and this is all we can try to do.

[Left Coast Chris]

A week ago a guy brought a nice 30" California Black Walnut to saw.   They are often not known to be straight for very much length so as luck would have it, the heart center was off center by maybe 4 inches or so.   I let the owner know that we were not likely to get much promising results but he explained it was a family yard tree his dad wanted sawn for years.  We agreed to go ahead.   I attempted to level the heart center to avoid the "slope of grain" issue mentioned earlier.   We kept turning the log until the boards coming off had the least tension/compression in the cut and at the ends.   In that position, the heart center was not level so we ended up with some slope of grain.  I am going to be curious as to how they dry.  It is a good stable wood but we did not have much to work with to start with.   The saving grace was the log was originally 20' long with a small bend at 10 feet.  The top 10' log had a long georgus crotch and we sawed it through and through with spectacular results so. It turned out to be the best wood.   Thanks for the terminology and discussion.  Very helpful especially dealing with our often not so straight western hardwoods.

[drobertson]

Chris, I most likely will get in trouble here again, but felt compelled to post, I have found on off centered hearts, to cut the log parallel to the sweep.  I have found this will produce boards to bow parallel to the cut plane. Not left or right as you would see with a crook, or side stressed board.  If properly stripped, and stacked I have seen good results in natural stress relief.  I have always stressed that enough material should be left on for dealing with side stress so that it can be removed after drying.   I have found that much of it can be removed while sawing in the green state, it just creates more waste.   there is always something to learn, david. 

[captain_crunch]

Took me long while to understand 1/4 sawn was just fancy word fer vertical grain :P :P : which translates to turn log on circle mill

[Left Coast Chris]

Thanks David, 

So much to learn......  that is the fun part of some of the more difficult trees.  Lots of technical.    By using logic and trial and error over the years I also found cutting parrallel to the sweep is the best approach normally.  On this particular log I cut the 20' piece in half at the abrupt sweep so the butt log was straight with no orientation as to which way the sweep was origianlly.  So it was then easy to loose which way the sweep was.  In cutting it the first board (8/8) sprung up on the butt end then the second board pinched the blade and it dove.  Made me sick.   I changed the blade although it was nearly new.   It had so much tension we decided not to risk it and turned it 90 degrees to try a cut.  No more tension and they cut fine.  Likely we were now more parallel to original sweep but had a bit of sloped grain.  He wanted enough 8/8 10' long boards for a table top.  I have never seen a walnut have that much tension before.  Leaners are real trouble.    The next log up with the crotch had a pretty good heart center and sawed beautifuly and saved the day.  The leason learned is when cutting the sweep out mark the log so you know which way it was oriented so you will be cutting parallel.   Good advice.  --thanks--

[1woodguy]

    I agree with Jeff I learned the term plain sawn in the early 60s and in doing it that way you had quarter sawn in center
   I recall grandfathers customers picking through the lumber at times selecting what they preferred
  Some customers wanted flat and it was turned and cut as they wished