I have been reading in here for a while and have come to some conclusions as I research what I will get to heat my shop.
It will not be an E-Classic, life is too short. I don't want a hobby I just want to heat some space.
The cost of central boilers is not justified either by the sum of the materials used in the fabrication, or by the potential payoff in an efficient building.
What is out there that is #1 reliable, with a capital R, and two the cost reflects the sum of material and labor with a reasonable profit?
If you have one of these other brands, let me hear what you paid and how it has been working out for you.
I have the woods, I have the tractor and the saws, but what I do not have is time to waste on something that does not do its job. If a heater has to become a hobby that is not what I want and I do not have the patience to fiddle with something that should not be broken in the first place.
If you have a Central Boiler and are going to get all indignant, don't bother, I don't care. This will be my money I'm spending and if all boilers are like the E-classics that I have been reading about here and on other sites, I'll buy more insulation and heat with gas.
Larry
Do you already have hydronic heating in your shop? If you do not then put a good wood furnace in the shop . It will be a lot cheaper than a boiler and it will be inside. Holmes
Quote from: Holmes on January 29, 2011, 07:47:24 PM
Do you already have hydronic heating in your shop? If you do not then put a good wood furnace in the shop . It will be a lot cheaper than a boiler and it will be inside. Holmes
I'd like to but I can't. Insurance companys will not touch a woodshop that has a woodstove in it. Tried on my last shop, no go.
A non-indignant e-classic user here, but just trying to help. More info please.
1. Does Michigan have any regulations regarding new OWB's? In other words, if you installed an outdoor wood furncace would it be required to be a gasifier?
2. Are you going to heat the shop 24/7, or are you only going to ask for heat while you are there (8-12 hours / 5 days a week)?
3. Would you heat by workday and then cut way back on the thermostat at night, just enough to prevent freezing. If so, then the calculations of savings become more difficult. Would you consider two sources for heat: one for comfort during the day and a second for maintenance temp at night?
4. How do you heat the shop now?
My suggestion would be to look up the list of epa approved outdoor furnaces. The list gets updated with new models from many manufacturers fairly often. Try to figure out how much heat you need. Even for a large shop, you may not require something as large as an e-2300 or 2400, or even a e-1400. So swearing off the Central Boiler units may already have happened for you anyway. There are other smaller wood furnaces for indoor / outdoor use. These may fit your requirements nicely. Check out the BTU ratings on the List of approved OWHH. They will have smaller water jackets and heat up more quickly than the larger units you have read about here.
Look into the outdoor hot air wood burners. They're easy to install and are much less than the boilers. Outsidewoodheater is one for $1595.
i wouldn't touch a c.b.either . i have a heatmore stove open the door throw wood in and get heat out... that simple.i heat 2500 sf of house and 1200sf of shop plus my domestic hotwater. fill the stove 2x day even at minus 35 deg. i put my stove in 3yrs ago base unit was 6 grand not including tubing.
if your looking at a gasifier there is other brands on the market that are alot less babysitting and alot less money that are epa and ul listed and approved.
I have a Heatmor too.They are legal in Maine.I put mine in before all of the requirements.Had mine for 3-4 seasons now.Just like red oak lumber said,open the door throw wood in and get heat out.I run mine steady all year around.No shutting it down to clean,auger ashes out,no computer controls to learn.Just a simple OWB.Most controllers parts can be bought at a hardware store.Right now I am burning dead ceder,pine and hemlock in it.
My shop and my house will only be about 100 feet apart, so using a unit to do both is not out of the question. The house is 1180 feet and brand new construction that will be the definition of tight. Its a replica of a one room schoolhouse, with the little additions off the end like one often sees.
The heated shop space will be 1800 feet. It is an existing pole barn that was on the property when I bought it. I have not started working on turning the shop into a heated space. One of the things I am wressling with is infloor heat or something else that is less expensive. I do have to pour a cap on the existing slab anyway as I need it to be level for my work. Infloor heat has the advantage of not having a problem with dust, something that forced air does in a woodshop enviroment. In my last shop I was cleaning the exchanger frequently. Forced air is cheaper but can't do both. Another advantage to infloor is that the shop arrangement can be altered at will. This is big as I am shifting away from construction to shop work and am not sure where I will end up as far as an end product.
The shop will be kept above freezing at all times, and I will have a backup gas box heater hanging in the corner. I like it a bit cool in the shop so in the fiftys to sixtys is all I am after. I will have it insulated very well as well. There will be a separate spray booth in another building so I will not have to keep temps up for that. The shop is unheated at this time.
Right now we can install whatever we want, but I expect that to change soon. I however will do what I want as the people that make these rules seldom know their heiney from a hole in the ground. I am out in the middle of nowhere, and do not expect problems.
I will check out hot air furnaces.
As much as I would like a stove in both the house and the shop, insurance cost and safety have to be considered. I am getting too old to climb up on the roof to clean the chimney, and I have a feeling that that is not going to get better. ;)
Both the house and the shop are works in progress so I am as of yet not locked into anything. The more expensive that I make it however means the more time I have to wait to have it completed as I am paying cash for everything and have spent my savings buying the property and roughing in the house.
It will be important to know what type of OWB is required. If the law allows you to use a non-gasidication there are many brands that will do well for you. If gasification is required I suspect non will meet your desires.
My Eclassic costs me 20 min a day (loading wood and stirring coals I could cut that in half if I relocate my wood shed), plus 15 minutes a week (emptying reaction chamber, cleaning ect.), plus 15 minutes every other week (turbulator cleaning), plus 1 hour twice a year in depth clening and ash removal), 2 hours a year chasing down issues in opperations. Yup this qualifies as a hobby for you (chores for me). The guys I have spoken with that have either the Wood Doctor, or Heatmore seem to be in similar boats.
On the other hand, the freinds I have with the non gasification, are a little quicker with in the daily, the same in the weekly, no bi-weekly, and one yearly cleaning. Over a year they have a considerably less time invested in the boiler opperation but a little more in working up a wood supply.
All in all you should look find a non-gassification. If the law does not allow for new non gasification boiler look for a used one, generally they are grandfathered and can be relocated.
Keep in mind ALL of these boilers have a life span. It may be 5 years 10 years but i dought 15 years. Even Stainless Steel boilers will crack at the welds. You could spend the money now on Insulation[ spray foam] and radiant heat and install a condensing gas boiler in your shop and heat it for a few years for minimal cost. I know of a wood shed, 6000' being heated with radiant and oil to 48* for less than 400 gallons of oil a year. It is a comfortable enviroment for his customers. In a few years they will have this wood burning technology figured out and then you can buy what will be right for you. Holmes
Just me-
If you are going to only heat during the day, and permit the shop to cool considerably at night, I might sugggest you shy away from radiant floor heating. While it's a great way to heat, and I have some in my house, it's not a quick way to heat. IMHO, you will need FHA or hotwater baseboard to bring the shop up to warm when you want it warm.
Other considerations:
A gasser or a non-gasser would work, but you will be loading the firebox when you leave for the day and giving instructions via the thermostat to the stove to allow the shop to cool over night, i.e. not calling for much heat. This is a mixed message of sorts to an OWB, and can lead to some problems with the fire going out - regardless of the type of OWB you install. Given the info above, I would definitely heat both the shop and the house from the same source, an OWB. That way, keeping the house warm throughout the night will require periodic cycling of the furnace, and problems with the fire going out are negated.
Further, if the shop has no running water, you don't need back-up heat there and would only require it in the house. You will, however, need a second source for domestic hot water in the house if you do not run the boiler year round.
Other points. Gasification stoves smoke much less than non-gassers. You've read all you need to read about CB, and the finicky nature of gasifier OWB's, and made up your mind. I respect that. What you don't read is the incredible amount of smoke produced by non-gasifier stoves. Even if you are in the middle of nowhere and couldn't possibly have a complaint from a neighbor, you can smoke yourself out. My friends with non-gasifier stoves all wish the unit was farther from their house. They all say they can smell the smoke inside their house, and they all say that there are days, dependent upon wind direction, that they can't open a window. It's a "pick your poison" situation, IMO. Those posts you read belittling the gasification units becasue of the maintenance required downplay what it's like to live with a non-gasifier. If you've invested the time to study all of this, and it sounds like you have, you should know of the significant problems with old style, non-gasification outdoor boilers. While cheaper and demanding less time commitment, gasifiers have come along becasue of the problems with the old-style burners. You can go that way becasue of cost and becasue of time, but know exactly what you are getting into. It's not a choice without downsides either way. By the way, my neighbors do not know that I heat with an OWB.
I think stumper is dead on with respect to time commitment for gasification stoves.
So you can choose from the list of pros and cons regarding gasification or non-gasification. You either spend more time dancing with the stove or you decide to burn more wood, have everything smell of smoke, and pollute more. I do think that your situation is ideal for an outdoor wood furnace. Please let us know your decision process as it moved forward.
Just me,
Here is my 2 cents. I bought my Woodmaster 4400 in November of 06. The base stove was $4995. By the time I added in the heat exchanger (baseboard heat), insulated Pex, fittings, and tax, the total was $6282. Later, I added some additional chimney sections and a ash auger for another $500 or so. I did the trenching, plumbing, and electrical hook up myself. In order to prevent any future problems with the town or my insurance carrier, the installation was fully permited by my local coe enforcement dept. They had no guidelines with respect to installation. Except for electrical and plumbing conformance within the dwelling, guidence for the inspectors came from the manufactuers installation manaul. This specified trench depth and conditions for the plumbing and electrical separation as well as setback and stack height.
This unit has been trouble free going into it's 5th year. It heats our 4000 sq ft house in rual western NJ with 10-12 cds of hardwood. Since I live in the middle of a 40 acre woodlot, smoke from this conventional type of burner has not been an issue formy neighbors. It is occasionaly an issue when we get an unusual south east wind. This has been mitigated somewhat by increasing the chimney height.
It is my feeling that no matter how trouble free a stove may be, to some extent, heating with wood is a hobby.
my stove is a nongasser.. i get tired of the gassers calling the newer non gassers smokers .. mine has very little smoke! nothing smells like smoke around my house. thats all just enviro propaganda. a good friend of mine has agasser i spend time coparing the 2 stoves . on start up both smoke when running neither smoke so wheres the enviro differant? poor milage cars do more polluting than stoves...
until they can stop wildfires (major smokers) the small amount of smoke coming from owb's is very small on the overall scheme of things.
Red Oaks
Not trying to spread propaganda and not trying to debate. Honestly. My experience in driving through the northeast' backroads, in addition to my friends here in MD who have non-gassers, is that they smoke way more than mine. I have driven through dense plumes of smoke that cross roads and blocks vision. My gasser has never looked like that. There is a boat-load of data on particulate debris for Both indoor and outdoor wood stoves. Sure, there are some enviro sites out there that will tell you you are ruining the planet. I am not talking about them. Check out the lists of particulate matter and efficiency ratings from the different units. The gassers are remarkably better.
the nongassers around here don't smoke like that, are they burning garbage or what? are they older units? if they are smoking like you decribe then ya that sends a poor message about owb. for me the biggest negatve about gassers is the amount of lead time for wood curing, or the space to store it. hopefully by the time i by law need to go gasser the techonolgy will be alot more user freindly.
I do agree that the prep time and space neceesary for wood drying for gassers is definitely increased. I don't know what these non-gassers were burning (who knows, maybe trash), but the internet is full of stories of people being smoked out by their neighbors. It seems every little New England town has ordinances against non-gassers. The data is there to support a significant decrease in particulates from the gassers, just like it was to support catalytic indoor wood stoves. The problem is, as has been discussed by Bioman and beenthere, do the tests used to qualitfy these newer devices really mirror their performance in the field?
Anyway, we're off topic for this thread. You and I agree that Just Me could do well with either. He has the info and can make his choice. If cost is a big factor, as he states, he should go non-gasser, because newer technology always costs more. I'll bet, as further improvements occur in upcoming years, the costs for these things will come down.
I wouldn't worry about being off topic,it's all good.
I have a conventional woodstove in my house and have always burned wood since 1985.I've never had to clean my flue although I had the brushes and even climbed up on the roof to clean it but it was clear.
The only time any smoke is visible our the chimney is on lighting the fire.
Dry wood,split and properly placed in the stove makes an efficient fire.A stove overloaded even with dry wood will burn inefficiently if it's choked back with no air.
The E classic seems to be high maintainence if you go by the countless threads here on this board.I would be interested in a gasification system one day when the threads regarding the problems with them are far less frequent.
I built and ran wood gasification system for a truck and know that there is more consideration for fuel prep,feeding and maintaining and there is more cleanup afterwards than you would with a regular fire.The gas that reached the engine was very clean but the condensates and "goo" would accumulate if there were any problems up the line.
Quote from: Just Me on January 29, 2011, 06:48:32 PM
What is out there that is #1 reliable, with a capital R, and two the cost reflects the sum of material and labor with a reasonable profit?
Because of your very concerns I know of two that where built from scratch. Depending on a persons skill level at metal work they are quite easy to design and build.
So can't blame you for looking around. :)
I've had a couple of these things over the last 15 years. First a taylor 750, and currently a cb 5036. What you burn has a large impact on the amount of smoke, seasoned hardwood produces very little smoke, cedar slabs produce a fair amount, and yard waste like boxwood clippings makes a huge amount. The taylor worked well till it rusted out, but it had fire tubes and a secondary flue that required regular cleaning. On the 5036 I open the cleanout door and push the accumulated ash back into the firebox twice a year. I dont know much about other owb's, but have talked to people with heatmor and hardee units and they seemed happy with them. Jim
Ya, don't worry about being off topic, I'm reading each and every post and am interested in all opinions and information that you feel is pertinent.
Thanks, Larry
a freind has a heatmore and loves the stove the one thing he didnt like was the insulation removed sprayed with foam like the CB's one thing is a given they all leak over time look at the warrenty and the fine print all are about 5 years max so spending more is not alway better find a good dealer in your area talk to people that has made a purchase from them and make your purchase on the feedback you get (the dealers don't make the warrenty)steel rust,and get eaten buy the acids in the wood and stainless cranks from thermal change over time
my 2 cents
Smoke issues from a OWB. :D I have a FIL that will hardly even look at my OWB because he knows they "all" smoke all the time.I like to mention how much smoke is coming out when it cycles when he here. ;) I've seen my old cook stove smoke more than my OWB. I drive around the state of Maine alot and probably know where there are 10 of the old OWB at least and probably another 5 of the new ones. I can not remember ever seeing one of them smoking alot. Mine is no more than 50 feet from the house. I use mine to heat our hot water all summer, very little smoke issues in the house,but I did add on 3- 3 foot sections of pipe to get the smoke up in the air.Would be no differant then a a regular wood stove,with no chimney on it.I can use my in the spring and fall to heat my house with no loosing the fire issues. I have it going for hot water,so it's easy to turn on a circulator for heat.I see wood stoves smoking and think if that was a OWB the neighbors would be having a fit about now. I can remember a member having a E classic delivered in his driveway.The neighbor came over and said that they would complain,even before it was set up. My FIL thinks it's OK to complain about the smoke from my OWB, but he burns his garbage in his garage all summer long. Even in the winter he does not use the stove for heat,so you can smell the garbage.
I do know what kind of wood matters with the smoke too.I've burn just about all types of wood,green and dry in mine.
I had a regulare Classic for many years and was pleased with the performance. It required very little maintenance and the cost worked out to about fifteen hundred dollars a year in a climate that is considerable north of you. The cost inclueds the capital and wood used over the life time of the stove. That was when the stove was approx 5000 but there are certainly regular OWB for not much more than that today. I put wood in two times a day and in the really cold weather three, and removed the ashes once every month or so. Wood over time becomes the larger expense if you are like me and have to purchase the wood that I burn. That has got me looking at the new gassifier type stoves. I feel that by saving a couple of cords or more a year I will more than make up for the extra cost of one of these stoves. The other reason is the smaller eviromental footprint that these stoves have, which is important to me in these days when we can see the impact that we have on our enviroment.
I have tried to do my homework before posting again in this discussion. The issue of smoking was brought up by me, so I will try to briefly encapsulize what I have found in my investigation.
What people see as pollution from OWB is smoke. The naked eye, it turns out, is not a very good judge of what is coming out of our chimney stacks. I spent some time going through the data from NESCAUM - the governing committee from New England states which studied the emissions of OWB and then made the reccomendations to manufacturers regarding stove design and pollution. What I found is that of the ten available OWB's that were tested for their initial report in 2006, the gram/hour rate of particulate emissions ranges from 18 - 263. Calculated efficiency ratings of these stoves ranges from 28 - 55 %.
NESCAUM, plus the EPA, then went through their two-step plan (Phase I and Phase II) to improve emmisions. While they mention complaints from neighbors, the driving force behind these regulations were the guidelines in the Clean Air Act and the level of particulates found close to these furnaces, which they deemed unacceptable and a health risk to those living nearby.
The new list of EPA OWB's is available at Burnwise.com. The emission rates from these approved stoves are significantly less than those older models (CB e-2300 - 5.5g/hr). The EPA has chosen to no longer rate efficiency of OWB's, but when they did, the efficiency of those early gasification models was sginificanly higher 80 - 90%.
The methodology of the testing, and the confusion that goes with it, is all there for the perusing. It is clear, while each of us has bias regarding how we heat, one can not deny the level of particulate debris is much, much less with gasification models. So we can accuse and defend all we want. Cost, wood consumption, smoke, maintenance time, reliability, learning curve, durability etc., etc. There is no debate about the facts regarding comparitive pollution of these two different types of wood burners, as tested. The only remaining question in that regard is whether the tests really demonstrate how well or poorly they perform in our backyards. I am not being an indignant e-2300 owner. I just think that we all discuss from the point of view of what we own, and we make the best situation out of that decision. Doctorb
Great post doctorb, well written and informative.
X-2
Scott
like any other study that has ever been done .the numbers will support the side that is spending the most money to get a posative result. you as a doctor know that better than anyone. aka eggs are bad no wait they are good. ect.
there is no question that gassers are the wave of the future so, for now let the debate continue.........
red oaks-
Point well taken. I can't tell you how many studies I have seen funded by orthopaedic implant manufacturers or drug companies that, given the constraints as to how the study was performed, could not have had any other outcome as the one that was designed by the company that would benefit from that outcome! Astute of you, I might say, and wise.
Specific to our discussion, the counter argument may be evident. NESCAUM took emissions data from the manufacturers themselves of the available 2004 stoves for their initial report. They did not perform the testing independently. The problem, as there was no standardization of the methods utilized, became reproduciibility and accuracy of the testing. Because the particulate matter data was so variable comparing furnace to furnace, and so widespread in scope, that legal arguments cropped up regarding the interpretation of the data between some of the companies and NESCAUM (including CB, I might add). NESCAUM's interpretation of the data was, and they state such, that the manufacturers knew about the emissions data, that their interpretation of the data was incorrect, and that they continued to produce their products in spite of it.
There is no question that you and I want the same destination here. A little truth in performance would help, and a reproducible, reliable furnace that does what we need it to do with a minimized environmental impact is the goal. We both have to agree that we ain't there yet. Non-gassers have a recorded ease of use, longevity, and a reliable performance record. Gassers pollute much less, require increased routine furnace maintenance not needed on non-gassers, and have an improved enviromental footprint. We need the marraige of convenience and performance. So as you say, let the debate continue...it's a healthy exercise, IMHO! Doctorb
This is the most info I have ever seen on this issue. Lots of great info, for and against. I agree every one's situation is different and the original poster is is trying to get all the info he can from actual users. I have a CB5036 and it has done me just fine. It will pay for its self in four years, was using oil $2000 a year - only two to go. The key to the least amount of smoke is definitely well seasoned hardwood. I fill it once a day at night and get 24 hour burn time even if it's 5 degrees out. Burn mine all year, 85 feet from my house - 75 feet from 2 neighbors houses and no complaints of smoke. I did a lot of homework as to where to place the boiler for the best smoke direction. Neighboring towns have had some difficulties with people burning garbage and one even burning with out a chimney - he is trying to ruin it for everyone. Tonto.
Quote from: doctorb on January 30, 2011, 10:24:09 AM
Just me-
If you are going to only heat during the day, and permit the shop to cool considerably at night, I might sugggest you shy away from radiant floor heating. While it's a great way to heat, and I have some in my house, it's not a quick way to heat. IMHO, you will need FHA or hotwater baseboard to bring the shop up to warm when you want it warm.
I have infloor heat in my current house, and it does not always have to be slow. Mine is tubing in aprox. 1 1/2" of drypack concrete over insulation with tile on top throughout the whole house. It is very fast to heat up, faster than my last house with baseboard heat, about 15 minutes to bring it up from 55* to comfortable. The reasons for this are twofold, one, my heated mass is relitively light weight being just 1 1/2" thick, and two, I do not have floor coverings that impede heat transfer. The tile are a good conductor.
I have built houses where they let fashion rather than heat transfer rate dictate the covering over the tubing, and they used lightcrete instead of concrete, which is not quite as good either. In these cases the warmup was slow.
The one problem I do have with infloor is that it doesn't cool down fast enough. In the spring and fall when the outside air temp fluctuates from freezing at night to 50*+ in the daytime it gets too hot in the house even though the heater has not run since morning. The thermal mass of the infloor just holds heat too long. We use the fireplace to take off the chill in the evening many days and leave the heat at a lower setting than normal.
In the shop I will have to have at least 3", probably 4" over the styrofoam as I will be running a forklift on the concrete, so you may be right there, lowering the heat may not make much difference with that much mass heated up. I am not worried about it being a little cool in the morning for a bit, but I doubt that the floor will cool down all that much. At 4" thick the mass of the floor would be 82,586 pounds, a lot to warm up and cool down.
I wish I could use the radiant tube heaters. They are very efficient, not at all expensive, but what they do to wood that is under them makes them not at all practical in a wood shop. They will cup a board in ten minutes. Fip it over and in ten minutes its cupped the other way. I tried them. :(
I checked out that outsidewoodheater. I would not pay that much for that, and if you look closely at the pictures, it sure looks to be a 55 gallon drum inside the unit. The fabrication was second rate, and that is the units they are showing you. I don't see $1500 there. Maybe $250. you could make a more efficient one aerodynamically by using a small grease barrel inside a oil barrel and build it yourself with a barrelstove door kit and a fan forcing air through the gap between. Would cost about $100 to build and probably work better.
Thanks to everyone for their information, the more I hear/read the better decision I can make.
Quote from: forest on February 03, 2011, 05:47:11 PM
I had a regulare Classic for many years and was pleased with the performance. It required very little maintenance and the cost worked out to about fifteen hundred dollars a year in a climate that is considerable north of you. The cost inclueds the capital and wood used over the life time of the stove. That was when the stove was approx 5000 but there are certainly regular OWB for not much more than that today. I put wood in two times a day and in the really cold weather three, and removed the ashes once every month or so. Wood over time becomes the larger expense if you are like me and have to purchase the wood that I burn. That has got me looking at the new gassifier type stoves. I feel that by saving a couple of cords or more a year I will more than make up for the extra cost of one of these stoves. The other reason is the smaller eviromental footprint that these stoves have, which is important to me in these days when we can see the impact that we have on our enviroment.
My brother in law has a classic [3-4 years old]and the local dealer just called him and offered him 5K on trade in on a new E-Classic. Not sure what that deal was but is something you may want to ask you local dealer about.
Check out NewYork Wood Boilers, I've had mine for 18 years without any major issues..... It is an indoor unit, uses about 4 cord of 18 " seasoned wood annually to heat 1200 Sq Ft also hotwater..... I do have Oil back up, When I get lazy....
New unit can be delivered for under $3000.oo
My brother has a 2300 eclassic --- to much work and you have to go out in the cold and weather to deal with it...... no thanks..... I can deal with my boiler in my birthday suit if I have too........
Just Me-
Interesting stuff on the in-floor heating. Mine is set in concrete with a brick floor on top. I can easily see where I got my perspective of it being too slow as compared to your experience. It does take a while for it to cool.
When I first started using the OWB and the radiant heat, I was concerned how much energy this cost me. I just have one zone of radiant floor heat. The temp of the water going through the pipes is diluted down to about 125 degrees through a remixing loop. The rest of the effluent water from the radiant system goes back to my indoor oil furnace for reheating via the OWB and heat exchangeer. My concern is that this outflow water from the radiant heat is about 100 - 110 degrees. My OWB comes in at over 180, and the temps in my indoor boiler jacket stay around 180. So I was concerned that the radiant heat, through the necessity to decrease the temps in the loops to prevent cracking of the concrete floor, actually introduced a lot of "cool" water back into my furnace jacket, and thus demanded more heat energy from the OWB to maintain temps.
This was verified by the temps of the water returning back to the outdoor furnace. Without the radiant heat on, those return temps run between 175 and 180 degrees. When the radiant loop kicks in, those temps drop into the 164 to 168 range. So I am sending cooler water back to my stove, which requires more heat to bring it back up to the 185 - 195 range to which my stove is set.
However, once up to temp, it's nice heat in that area of my house, so I stopped worrying about it and it costs me some extra wood. So be it! Doctorb
at my sons house (in floor heat)i have the stove temp set at 160 deg. the water coming back to the stove is still 140 deg. my feeling is why have the water hotter just to cool it down to use it, all you are doing is burning more wood.his house is a slab on grade,with 7 heat zones in the floor. once the slab is up to temp in the fall he turns the flow values up, so the water is running thru the tubes quicker so the water going back to the stove is hotter tha tif you run it slower and pull more heat off the water.
as to running in floor in a shop enviroment. i don't think for the money its worth it. i mwould use a high out put heatexchanger you allready have the stove so, the added cost is minimal... my own thoughts
Red oaks you are correct about turning the boiler down to 160* for the radiant heating system. For every 3* you lower the water temp.
you have the potential for 1% savings on fuel, so you can be saving 8%.
Just me, Radiant heating the shop will not be that expensive and it will be the best way to heat it, even if you keep it cooler most of the time. All you will need is about 2100 ft. of tubing ( spaced 12" on center) ,an 8 loop manifold, mixing valve, t stat , a circulator, the insulation and wire mesh . You are going to poor a new floor anyway. If you radiant heat the house also you will be able to run your outside boiler at a lower temp if you want. The overshooting of radiant heat on a warm day can be slowed down by better insulation . At least r19 in the walls and r40 for the roof.
Now all you need is a great boiler to do the job. Keep in mind that all of these discussions on outdoor boilers are in reality research and development for the boiler companies. They can not duplicate how you me and the next guy use the boilers day in and day out. I believe they are getting closer each year. We are already hearing how people really like the 2400 boiler. Maybe next years boiler wiil be the one. Holmes
I agree with lowering the boiler water temp to save money, if you heat entirely with radiant floor heat. The majority of my house is zoned hot water baseboard. That issue has come up here before without resolution, but my plumber likes 180 degree water in those pipes. Hence, the OWB delivers that temp to my basement. As only one of my heating zones is radiant and is not a highly trafficked area, I choose to use the radiant heat on an as needed basis. I am open to other suggestions regarding this problem.
doctorb Your original heating system was designed for 180* water so your plumber is correct in wanting that temp. If you want to save some on fuel it is best to do it during warmer temps. like above 25*f and turn your boiler temp down 20*. Over time, along time you will get a savings. It sounds to me like you have a well installed heating system. Your time spent to get your boiler working properly has been a benefit to everyone wanting to get, have,or use an outdoor boiler. People can not make an educated decision without being educatedand these discussions are a great education. Holmes
Quote from: doctorb on February 06, 2011, 09:03:12 AM
Just Me-
Interesting stuff on the in-floor heating. Mine is set in concrete with a brick floor on top. I can easily see where I got my perspective of it being too slow as compared to your experience. It does take a while for it to cool.
When I first started using the OWB and the radiant heat, I was concerned how much energy this cost me. I just have one zone of radiant floor heat. The temp of the water going through the pipes is diluted down to about 125 degrees through a remixing loop. The rest of the effluent water from the radiant system goes back to my indoor oil furnace for reheating via the OWB and heat exchangeer. My concern is that this outflow water from the radiant heat is about 100 - 110 degrees. My OWB comes in at over 180, and the temps in my indoor boiler jacket stay around 180. So I was concerned that the radiant heat, through the necessity to decrease the temps in the loops to prevent cracking of the concrete floor, actually introduced a lot of "cool" water back into my furnace jacket, and thus demanded more heat energy from the OWB to maintain temps.
This was verified by the temps of the water returning back to the outdoor furnace. Without the radiant heat on, those return temps run between 175 and 180 degrees. When the radiant loop kicks in, those temps drop into the 164 to 168 range. So I am sending cooler water back to my stove, which requires more heat to bring it back up to the 185 - 195 range to which my stove is set.
However, once up to temp, it's nice heat in that area of my house, so I stopped worrying about it and it costs me some extra wood. So be it! Doctorb
All of that heat that was lost, was lost inside your house. If it was being lost outside then it would be a problem. Its just that your infloor is much more efficient at pulling the heat out of the water in the amount of time it is traveling through the exchange medium, the infloor being a longer path. I can't see that you would be using any more wood, its just that the heat is now stored in the mass of the floor inside the house. Not lost, just diverted temporarily.
Any loss it would seem to me is that the OWB is keeping 300 gallons of water hot outside where any loss is direct to the atmosphere where there is no gain in the living space. I'm curious how many BTUs are lost from the boiler itself.
That is one of the advantages of the compact gas boilers. They are so fast that hardly any water at all is stored in the boiler. The one in my house here heats my hot water and the infloor and it is the size of a carry on bag. {Before the rules changes >:(}. So on standby it is keeping less than 5 gallons hot. Don't really see the need for the huge reservoir? Who cares if it takes a bit longer to warm up? Is it to protect the fire box? Don't know.....
Quote from: Holmes on February 06, 2011, 01:02:33 PM
Just me, Radiant heating the shop will not be that expensive and it will be the best way to heat it, even if you keep it cooler most of the time. All you will need is about 2100 ft. of tubing ( spaced 12" on center) ,an 8 loop manifold, mixing valve, t stat , a circulator, the insulation and wire mesh . You are going to poor a new floor anyway. If you radiant heat the house also you will be able to run your outside boiler at a lower temp if you want. The overshooting of radiant heat on a warm day can be slowed down by better insulation . At least r19 in the walls and r40 for the roof.
Now all you need is a great boiler to do the job. Keep in mind that all of these discussions on outdoor boilers are in reality research and development for the boiler companies. They can not duplicate how you me and the next guy use the boilers day in and day out. I believe they are getting closer each year. We are already hearing how people really like the 2400 boiler. Maybe next years boiler wiil be the one. Holmes
I do have great insulation in my house. My hot water costs me more than my heat. In fact, as I look at the pictures of your house I see snow on the ground, and none on the roof. At my house the snow on the ground is usually gone before the snow on my roof.
I did an experiment on this house, something I always wanted to try. I have a double ceiling. Very simple. I drywalled and taped the ceiling and walls. Then I added 3/4" strips, then another layer of drywall, finish taped. Around the exterior walls I built a dropped soffit, insulated with polyiso foam, which also doubles as a way to get the infloor fed to the back of the house for the second zone. In my first year the top of the 2x6 ceiling joist were still showing, insulation in between. My worst heat bills that winter were $72 for heat and hot water. The next winter I blew in some insulation, and my bills did not change when comparing cu ft to heating days. In other words gas went up, but my usage was still the same. I have zero roof ventilation, and yet I never have an icycle on my eaves. Never.
So.... I am doing the same thing with my new house, but the first layer will be polyiso foamed in between the sheets, and my dropped soffits at the eves will be a bit bigger. I do not allow wires to go through into the attic if not absolutely necessary, and never any on the eave sides. I am fanatical in all the homes I build that they be tight. Most need air to air exchangers.
You sound like you are a heating contractor? I am having a hard time deciding what to do as my house will be super efficient with out going solar, and will not require much, but on the other hand the shop will be less so. Maybe I just need to treat them as seperate entities, that will make things simpler.
Nice old house by the way! Location looks great as well. A big share of my business lately has been restoration work. I make all of the old mouldings in Azek. No one can tell and they will be there as long as I need. Mixed with wood siding it is a good combination, looks original but will not have the paint problems that plague wood trim, especially with the wood we have to work with today.
Thank you for your input, I am listening.....
Larry
I just googled "outside wood boilers review regulation". Holy Cow!
There is some crap coming down the pike all over the country. I have some reading to do.
Just Me I am a plumbing ,heating contractor. I enjoy hydronic heating it is more challenging than plumbing. I bought the farm in 99 and spent 6 years on a total remodel, inside and out. I did 2/3 of the work myself. The house has 2 lb. density spray foam insulation ( r7 per inch) in the walls (2.5") and roofs (5") I heat 5000 sq. ft. with 800 gallons of oil with radiant floor heat. Not bad for a house that went thru 250 gallons of oil in 10 days with steam heat back in the 90s. The insulation is sprayed right to the roof boards and rafters and we have no ice dams or icicles. Great insulation.
Now on your project you could put a high efficiency boiler in your shop large enough to heat your house and shop, run insulated pipes underground to the house and heat the house from the shop boiler. The business would be paying to heat your house. When you rebuild the shop put an addition on for a future add on ( gasifying wood ;D) boiler and pipe that to the high eff. boiler. This way when you leave the shop in the afternoon you can fill the boiler with wood ,walk home and be warm for the rest of the night. Oh and on those condensing gas boilers get one with a ss heat exchanger seems that the aluminum products are eating themselves away from the outside in. Small pieces of aluminum are falling off the exterior of the heat exchangers and plugging up the condensate drains, not good. Holmes
I had not thought of the idea of feeding the house from the shop for those economic reasons.... Hmmm...
I had thought about feeding the house from the shop as far as electricity, but had never considered heat. Would the line loss in say a 100 ft run be too high when you are paying for gas?
I did a lot of reading last night on upcoming regulations, and I may hold off a bit as you have suggested to see what shakes out, and allow the technology to catch up a bit. Couple of things that bother me about wood boilers, the codes coming down the pike, and the burnout rate. Even figuring a ten year average life expectancy, and factoring in the collection cost of stocking wood, I am just not seeing the payoff in an efficient building at this time. In a building that is inefficient and is going through fistfulls of dollars it makes more sense, but not so much in a small efficent house like mine. I do like the independence and the idea that if fuel cost spiral upward you have options under your control.
I have also thought about building one myself. I have a full metal shop at my disposal from when my brother and I fabbed off-road race trucks, and there doesn't seem to be all that much that is tricky. Controls and design would be where I would be weak. I did 2.5 years as a plumber before I started building, but that was 30+ years ago, so much is forgotten, and what I do remember has probably changed.
I am planning on contacting insurance companys to find out exactly what their rules are as far as wood burners in the house/shop. One that I had in mind was an outside wood boiler built into the side of the shop, but the firebox not accessable from the inside. I have been told that I can not have a wood stove in my shop because of the possibility of a dust explosion, understandable, but I am wondering if I build it so the fire is not connected to the inside if it would be approved. That way all the heat loss from around the burner would be for the most part captured in the shop, and handy to get rid of unusable scrap. The part on the outside could be insulated, and the inside masonary. A great big heat soak.
I would put a simple woodstove in the house, but the difference in insurance would more than pay my heat bill for a year at the present rates. Its more than double.
There is a backstory of why I am being so cautious. Thirteen years ago I had a disasterous divorce. Never marry a rich girl, they can afford better lawyers :(
Anyway..
I had to start over from Zero, and due to what we will call an adventurous lifestyle I broke 63 bones over the years. I am only 54, but my past is fast catching up with me and my days of crawling over houses is fast coming to a close. This place will be paid off, and I want it to be low maintainance, and economical. My wife is 20 years younger than I and I want a setup that will allow her to keep it if something should happen to me. Everything that I do has to be reliable, economical, and built to last.
Soon I will have to make a living just in the wood shop, which I am actually looking forward to, but there is less money in it than there is in construction. I am close to my goal, but not quite there yet.....
Really appreciate all of the input. This is a very nice group of down to earth people here, salt of the earth and all that.
Thanks, The other Larry
Just Me-
My understanding is that the reason the boilers have such large water reservoirs is to increase stove efficiency. Once the stove gets really fired up (I mean the firebox has a raging fire in it), a tremendous amount of heat is released. With a smaller water jacket, that would shut down the stove after shorter burn times because it takes much less energy to raise, for example, 100 gallons of water 10 degrees versus 300 gallons of water.
The stoves, and in particular the gassers, need to get up to temp and burn the wood completely. This requires very high temps and a little bit of time, once the fans kick in to re-energize the fire. The stoves are not efficient in idle mode (sitting still awaiting the signal tio produce more heat). While efficient in "low burn" mode, the real environmental and efficiency savings comes when the stove is cranking on high burn. That energy needs to be stored, or it is lost, and storage of all that energy is the basis for using such large amounts of water in the jacket. So instead of having the stove turn on and off again and again after short intervals, the large volume water jacket permits storage of the energy with a resultant need to fire up the stove less often. This is also where the wood savings with gassers originates.