Ok. Low cost alternatives to Central Boiler

[Just Me]

 I have been reading in here for a while and have come to some conclusions as I research what I will get to heat my shop.

It will not be an E-Classic, life is too short. I don't want a hobby I just want to heat some space.

The cost of central boilers is not justified either by the sum of the materials used in the fabrication, or by the potential payoff in an efficient building.

What is out there that is #1 reliable, with a capital R, and two the cost reflects the sum of material and labor with a reasonable profit?

If you have one of these other brands, let me hear what you paid and how it has been working out for you.

I have the woods, I have the tractor and the saws, but what I do not have is time to waste on something that does not do its job. If a heater has to become a hobby that is not what I want and I do not have the patience to fiddle with something that should not be broken in the first place.

If you have a Central Boiler and are going to get all indignant, don't bother, I don't care. This will be my money I'm spending and if all boilers are like the E-classics that I have been reading about here and on other sites, I'll buy more insulation and heat with gas.

Larry

[Holmes]

Do you already have hydronic heating in your shop?  If you do not then put  a good wood furnace in the shop . It will be a lot cheaper than a boiler and it will be inside.  Holmes

[Just Me]

Do you already have hydronic heating in your shop?  If you do not then put  a good wood furnace in the shop . It will be a lot cheaper than a boiler and it will be inside.  Holmes

I'd like to but I can't. Insurance companys will not touch a woodshop that has a woodstove in it. Tried on my last shop, no go.

[doctorb]

A non-indignant e-classic user here, but just trying to help.  More info please.

1.  Does Michigan have any regulations regarding new OWB's?  In other words, if you installed an outdoor wood furncace would it be required to be a gasifier?

2.  Are you going to heat the shop 24/7, or are you only going to ask for heat while you are there (8-12 hours / 5 days a week)?

3.  Would you heat by workday and then cut way back on the thermostat at night, just enough to prevent freezing.  If so, then the calculations of savings become more difficult.  Would you consider two sources for heat:  one for comfort during the day and a second for maintenance temp at night?

4.  How do you heat the shop now?

My suggestion would be to look up the list of epa approved outdoor furnaces.  The list gets updated with new models from many manufacturers fairly often.  Try to figure out how much heat you need.  Even for a large shop, you may not require something as large as an e-2300 or 2400, or even a e-1400. So swearing off the Central Boiler units may already have happened for you anyway.  There are other smaller wood furnaces for indoor / outdoor use.  These may fit your requirements nicely.  Check out the BTU ratings on the List of approved OWHH.  They will have smaller water jackets and heat up more quickly than the larger units you have read about here.

[jbeat]

Look into the outdoor hot air wood burners. They're easy to install and are much less than the boilers. Outsidewoodheater is one for $1595.

[red oaks lumber]

i wouldn't touch a c.b.either . i have a heatmore stove  open the door throw wood in and get heat out... that simple.i heat 2500 sf of house and 1200sf of shop plus my domestic hotwater. fill the stove 2x day even at minus 35 deg. i put my stove in 3yrs ago base unit was 6 grand not including tubing.
if your looking at a gasifier there is other brands on the market that are alot less babysitting and alot less money that are epa and ul listed and approved.

[thecfarm]

I have a Heatmor too.They are legal in Maine.I put mine in before all of the requirements.Had mine for 3-4 seasons now.Just like red oak lumber said,open the door throw wood in and get heat out.I run mine steady all year around.No shutting it down to clean,auger ashes out,no computer controls to learn.Just a simple OWB.Most controllers parts can be bought at a hardware store.Right now I am burning dead ceder,pine and hemlock in it.

[Just Me]

 

My shop and my house will only be about 100 feet apart, so using a unit to do both is not out of the question. The house is 1180 feet and brand new construction that will be the definition of tight. Its a replica of a one room schoolhouse, with the little additions off the end like one often sees.

The heated shop space will be 1800 feet. It is an existing pole barn that was on the property when I bought it. I have not started working on turning the shop into a heated space. One of the things I am wressling with is  infloor heat or something else that is less expensive. I do have to pour a cap on the existing slab anyway as I need it to be level for my work. Infloor heat has the advantage of not having a problem with dust, something that forced air does in a woodshop enviroment. In my last shop I was cleaning the exchanger frequently. Forced air is cheaper but can't do both. Another advantage to infloor is that the shop arrangement can be altered at will. This is big as I am shifting away from construction to shop work and am not sure where I will end up as far as an end product.

The shop will be kept above freezing at all times, and I will have a backup gas box heater hanging in the corner. I like it a bit cool in the shop so in the fiftys to sixtys is all I am after. I will have it insulated very well as well. There will be a separate spray booth in another building so I will not have to keep temps up for that. The shop is unheated at this time.

Right now we can install whatever we want, but I expect that to change soon. I however will do what I want as the people that make these rules seldom know their heiney from a hole in the ground. I am out in the middle of nowhere, and do not expect problems.

I will check out hot air furnaces.

As much as I would like a stove in both the house and the shop, insurance cost and safety have to be considered. I am getting too old to climb up on the roof to clean the chimney, and I have a feeling that that is not going to get better. ;)

Both the house and the shop are works in progress so I am as of yet not locked into anything. The more expensive that I make it however means the more time I have to wait to have it completed as I am paying cash for everything and have spent my savings buying the property and roughing in the house.

[stumper]

It will be important to know what type of OWB is required.  If the law allows you to use a non-gasidication there are many brands that will do well for you.  If gasification is required I suspect non will meet your desires.

My Eclassic costs me 20 min a day (loading wood and stirring coals  I could cut that in half if I relocate my wood shed), plus 15 minutes a week (emptying reaction chamber, cleaning ect.), plus 15 minutes every other week (turbulator cleaning), plus 1 hour twice a year in depth clening and ash removal), 2 hours a year chasing down issues in opperations.  Yup this qualifies as a hobby for you (chores for me).  The guys I have spoken with that have either the Wood Doctor, or Heatmore seem to be in similar boats.

On the other hand, the freinds I have with the non gasification, are a little quicker with in the daily, the same in the weekly, no bi-weekly, and one yearly cleaning.  Over a year they have a considerably less time invested in the boiler opperation but a little more in working up a wood supply.

All in all you should look find a non-gassification.  If the law does not allow for new non gasification boiler look for a used one, generally they are grandfathered and can be relocated. 

[Holmes]

   Keep in mind ALL of these boilers have a life span. It may be 5 years 10 years but i dought 15 years. Even Stainless Steel boilers will crack at the welds.  You could spend the money now on Insulation[ spray foam] and radiant heat and install a condensing gas boiler in your shop and heat it for a few years for minimal cost. I know of a wood shed, 6000' being heated with radiant and oil to 48* for less than 400 gallons of oil a year. It is a comfortable enviroment for his customers. In a few years they will have this wood burning technology figured out and then you can buy what will be right for you.  Holmes

[doctorb]

Just me-

If you are going to only heat during the day, and permit the shop to cool considerably at night, I might sugggest you shy away from radiant floor heating.  While it's a great way to heat, and I have some in my house, it's not a quick way to heat.  IMHO, you will need FHA or hotwater baseboard to bring the shop up to warm when you want it warm.

Other considerations:
  A gasser or a non-gasser would work, but you will be loading the firebox when you leave for the day and giving instructions via the thermostat to the stove to allow the shop to cool over night, i.e. not calling for much heat.  This is a mixed message of sorts to an OWB, and can lead to some problems with the fire going out - regardless of the type of OWB you install.  Given the info above, I would definitely heat both the shop and the house from the same source, an OWB.  That way, keeping the house warm throughout the night will require periodic cycling of the furnace, and problems with the fire going out are negated. 

Further, if the shop has no running water, you don't need back-up heat there and would only require it in the house.  You will, however, need a second source for domestic hot water in the house if you do not run the boiler year round.

Other points.  Gasification stoves smoke much less than non-gassers.  You've read all you need to read about CB, and the finicky nature of gasifier OWB's, and made up your mind.  I respect that.  What you don't read is the incredible amount of smoke produced by non-gasifier stoves.  Even if you are in the middle of nowhere and couldn't possibly have a complaint from a neighbor, you can smoke yourself out.  My friends with non-gasifier stoves all wish the unit was farther from their house. They all say they can smell the smoke inside their house, and they all say that there are days, dependent upon wind direction, that they can't open a window.  It's a "pick your poison" situation, IMO.  Those posts you read belittling the gasification units becasue of the maintenance required downplay what it's like to live with a non-gasifier.  If you've invested the time to study all of this, and it sounds like you have, you should know of the significant problems with old style, non-gasification outdoor boilers.  While cheaper and demanding less time commitment, gasifiers have come along becasue of the problems with the old-style burners.  You can go that way becasue of cost and becasue of time, but know exactly what you are getting into.  It's not a choice without downsides either way.  By the way, my neighbors do not know that I heat with an OWB.

I think stumper is dead on with respect to time commitment for gasification stoves.

So you can choose from the list of pros and cons regarding gasification or non-gasification.  You either spend more time dancing with the stove or you decide to burn more wood, have everything smell of smoke, and pollute more.  I do think that your situation is ideal for an outdoor wood furnace.  Please let us know your decision process as it moved forward. 

[Eljay]

Just me,

Here is my 2 cents. I bought my Woodmaster 4400 in November of 06. The base stove was $4995. By the time I added in the heat exchanger (baseboard heat), insulated Pex, fittings, and tax, the total was $6282. Later, I added some additional chimney sections  and a ash auger for another $500 or so. I did the trenching, plumbing, and electrical hook up myself. In order to prevent any future problems with the town or my insurance carrier, the installation was fully permited by my local coe enforcement dept. They had no guidelines with respect to installation. Except for electrical and plumbing  conformance within the dwelling, guidence for the inspectors came from the manufactuers installation manaul. This specified trench depth and conditions for the plumbing and electrical separation as well as setback and stack height.
This unit has been trouble free going into it's 5th year. It heats our 4000 sq ft house in rual western NJ with 10-12 cds of hardwood. Since I live in the middle of a 40 acre woodlot, smoke from this conventional type of burner has not been an issue formy neighbors. It is occasionaly an issue when we get an unusual south east wind. This has been mitigated somewhat by increasing the chimney height.
It is my feeling that no matter how trouble free a stove may be, to some extent, heating with wood is a hobby.

[red oaks lumber]

my stove is a nongasser.. i get tired of the gassers calling the newer non gassers smokers .. mine has very little smoke! nothing smells like smoke around my house. thats all just enviro propaganda. a good friend of mine has agasser i spend time coparing the 2 stoves . on start up both smoke when running neither smoke so wheres the enviro differant?  poor milage cars do more polluting than stoves...
until they can stop wildfires (major smokers) the small amount of smoke coming from owb's is very small on the overall scheme of things.

[doctorb]

Red Oaks

Not trying to spread propaganda and not trying to debate.  Honestly.  My experience in driving through the northeast' backroads, in addition to my friends here in MD who have non-gassers, is that they smoke way more than mine.  I have driven through dense plumes of smoke that cross roads and blocks vision.  My gasser has never looked like that.  There is a boat-load of data on particulate debris for Both indoor and outdoor wood stoves.  Sure, there are some enviro sites out there that will tell you you are ruining the planet.  I am not talking about them.  Check out the lists of particulate matter and efficiency ratings from the different units.  The gassers are remarkably better.

[red oaks lumber]

the nongassers around here don't smoke like that, are they burning garbage or what? are they older units? if they are smoking like you decribe then ya that sends a poor message about owb. for me the biggest negatve about gassers is the amount of lead time for wood curing, or the space to store it. hopefully by the time i by law need to go gasser the techonolgy will be alot more user freindly.

[doctorb]

I do agree that the prep time and space neceesary for wood drying for gassers is definitely increased.  I don't know what these non-gassers were burning (who knows, maybe trash), but the internet is full of stories of people being smoked out by their neighbors.  It seems every little New England town has ordinances against non-gassers.  The data is there to support a significant decrease in particulates from the gassers, just like it was to support catalytic indoor wood stoves.  The problem is, as has been discussed by Bioman and beenthere, do the tests used to qualitfy these newer devices really mirror their performance in the field?

Anyway, we're off topic for this thread.  You and I agree that Just Me could do well with either.  He has the info and can make his choice.  If cost is a big factor, as he states, he should go non-gasser, because newer technology always costs more.  I'll bet, as further improvements occur in upcoming years, the costs for these things will come down.

[Paul_H]

I wouldn't worry about being off topic,it's all good.

I have a conventional woodstove in my house and have always burned wood since 1985.I've never had to clean my flue although I had the brushes and even climbed up on the roof to clean it but it was clear.
The only time any smoke is visible our the chimney is on lighting the fire.
Dry wood,split and properly placed in the stove makes an efficient fire.A stove overloaded even with dry wood will burn inefficiently if it's choked back with no air.

The E classic seems to be high maintainence if you go by the countless threads here on this board.I would be interested in a gasification system one day when the threads regarding the problems with them are far less frequent.

I built and ran wood gasification system for a truck and know that there is more consideration for fuel prep,feeding and maintaining and there is more cleanup afterwards than you would with a regular fire.The gas that reached the engine was very clean but the condensates and "goo" would accumulate if there were any problems up the line.

[Reddog]

What is out there that is #1 reliable, with a capital R, and two the cost reflects the sum of material and labor with a reasonable profit?

Because of your very concerns I know of two that where built from scratch. Depending on a persons skill level at metal work they are quite easy to design and build.
So can't blame you for looking around.

[Jim H]

I've had a couple of these things over the last 15 years. First a taylor 750, and currently a cb 5036. What you burn has a large impact on the amount of smoke, seasoned hardwood produces very little smoke, cedar slabs produce a fair amount, and yard waste like boxwood clippings makes a huge amount. The taylor worked well till it rusted out, but it had fire tubes and a secondary flue that required regular cleaning. On the 5036 I open the cleanout door and push the accumulated ash back into the firebox twice a year. I dont know much about other owb's, but have talked to people with heatmor and hardee units and they seemed happy with them.   Jim

[Just Me]

 Ya, don't worry about being off topic, I'm reading each and every post and am interested in all opinions and information that you feel is pertinent.

Thanks, Larry

[albirk]

a freind has a heatmore and loves the stove the one thing he didnt like was the insulation removed sprayed with foam like the CB's one thing is a given they all leak over time look at the warrenty and the fine print all are about 5 years max so spending more is not alway better find a good dealer in your area talk to people that has made a purchase from them and make your purchase on the feedback you get (the dealers don't make the warrenty)steel rust,and get eaten buy the acids in the wood and stainless cranks from thermal change over time
my 2 cents

[thecfarm]

Smoke issues from a OWB. :D  I have a FIL that will hardly even look at my OWB because he knows they "all" smoke all the time.I like to mention how much smoke is coming out when it cycles when he here. ;) I've seen my old cook stove smoke more than my OWB. I drive around the state of Maine alot and probably know where there are 10 of the old OWB at least and probably another 5 of the new ones. I can not remember ever seeing one of them smoking alot. Mine is no more than 50 feet from the house. I use mine to heat our hot water all summer, very little smoke issues in the house,but I did add on 3- 3 foot sections of pipe to get the smoke up in the air.Would be no differant then a a regular wood stove,with no chimney on it.I can use my in the spring and fall to heat my house with no loosing the fire issues. I have it going for hot water,so it's easy to turn on a circulator for heat.I see wood stoves smoking and think if that was a OWB the neighbors would be having a fit about now. I can remember a member having a E classic delivered in his driveway.The neighbor came over and said that they would complain,even before it was set up. My FIL thinks it's OK to complain about the smoke from my OWB, but he burns his garbage in his garage all summer long. Even in the winter he does not use the stove for heat,so you can smell the garbage.
I do know what kind of wood matters with the smoke too.I've burn just about all types of wood,green and dry in mine.

[forest]

I had a regulare Classic for many years and was pleased with the performance. It required very little maintenance and the cost worked out to about fifteen hundred dollars a year in a climate that is considerable north of you. The cost inclueds the capital and wood used over the life time of the stove. That was when the stove was approx 5000 but there are certainly regular OWB for not much more than that today. I put wood in two times a day and in the really cold weather three, and removed the ashes once every month or so. Wood over time becomes the larger expense if you are like me and have to purchase the wood that I burn. That has got me looking at the new gassifier type stoves. I feel that by saving a couple of cords or more a year I will more than make up for the extra cost of one of these stoves. The other reason is the smaller eviromental footprint that these stoves have, which is important to me in these days when we can see the impact that we have on our enviroment.

[doctorb]

I have tried to do my homework before posting again in this discussion.  The issue of smoking was brought up by me, so I will try to briefly encapsulize what I have found in my investigation.

What people see as pollution from OWB is smoke.  The naked eye, it turns out, is not a very good judge of what is coming out of our chimney stacks.  I spent some time going through the data from NESCAUM - the governing committee from New England states which studied the emissions of OWB and then made the reccomendations to manufacturers regarding stove design and pollution.  What I found is that of the ten available OWB's that were tested for their initial report in 2006, the gram/hour rate of particulate emissions ranges from 18 - 263.   Calculated efficiency ratings of these stoves ranges from 28 - 55 %.

NESCAUM, plus the EPA, then went through their two-step plan (Phase I and Phase II) to improve emmisions.  While they mention complaints from neighbors, the driving force behind these regulations were the guidelines in the Clean Air  Act and the level of particulates found close to these furnaces, which they deemed unacceptable and a health risk to those living nearby.

The new list of EPA OWB's is available at Burnwise.com.  The emission rates from these approved stoves are significantly less than those older models (CB e-2300 - 5.5g/hr).  The EPA has chosen to no longer rate efficiency of OWB's, but when they did, the efficiency of those early gasification models was sginificanly higher 80 - 90%.

The methodology of the testing, and the confusion that goes with it, is all there for the perusing.  It is clear, while each of us has bias regarding how we heat, one can not deny the level of particulate debris is much, much less with gasification models.  So we can accuse and defend all we want.  Cost, wood consumption, smoke, maintenance time, reliability, learning curve, durability etc., etc.  There is no debate about the facts regarding comparitive pollution of these two different types of wood burners, as tested.  The only remaining question in that regard is whether the tests really demonstrate how well or poorly they perform in our backyards.  I am not being an indignant e-2300 owner.  I just think that we all discuss from the point of view of what we own, and we make the best situation out of that decision.  Doctorb

[Dean186]

Great post doctorb, well written and informative.