More and Less Productive Jobs

[Okrafarmer]

Of course 30 years ago $50.00 was a good rate.

Per day? Per what?

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

You have to take the good with the bad in portable sawmilling ;) thats the big difference between portable custom work and production work as in production mills you aim to keep your mill in the optimum log grade and dia class to achieve consistent production figures you do go over and under those limits at times ;) where as custom work you could be sawing anything and everything out of a tree    ;D 8) 8) and I fully agree with the boys that you need to set firm prices that suit what your doing and how you work and the type of mill you have as costomers dont like to think that a job price might blow out on them  ;)

Regards Chris

[ladylake]

Pretty good over run on this  job, 100    8'  x 10"  logs scale 3000 bf.     Steve

[Magicman]

There is nothing wrong with hourly rate sawing and that is what I use when sawing Cedar and other "specialty" logs.

I show the customer that if you take my 1500 bf rate and divide it by 8 hours it equals my hourly rate.  My work pace is the same no matter what the billing method is.

Yes, I will saw a rotten log.


 
There was about 300 bf of lumber in this "sinker" Cypress log.


 
This rotten Red Oak log turned out some very nice wall paneling for a "high end" home.

[terrifictimbersllc]

I'm 100% portable. Over half my customers are residential and have never had wood sawn before.  Because of distance I usually don't visit in advance.   I have challenges of sawing logs without seeing them first, being unsure of whether logs will be ready to saw, and working with who knows what kind of help will be provided.  One can only talk in so much detail in advance, without turning people off.  For example some people ask for an estimate, and I ask for a list of species, length and diameter for each log.  I will get this list only about 25% of the time.  I wonder whether the other 75% think I am nuts or just aren't "detail" people. Best to reserve judgment on that for everyone's benefit.   : : :  Another big variable is (for me) to know whether the customer will like what is inside the log before I saw it. Some like "character", and often there is some "sentimental" attachment, or sense of "green" duty, to the wood.  I find both things (what's inside, and whether they will like it), hard to judge and have become very careful about suggesting we take a chain saw to what's on the mill. 

I find the hourly rate makes customers sensitive to optimizing these factors both before and during the job.  On some jobs (logs ready, higher volume, optimal logs, efficient help, easy cutting instructions) I am beating what I probably would charge bf wise by 5-10 cents.  On others, I would be taking a beating sometimes maybe as much as 50 cents a bf if I had a flat bf price. (For example, a straight 18 foot 8x8 or 6x8 "whatever you can get out of it" from of a not so straight 14" diameter 20 foot ASH log frozen in the ground 20 feet from, and not lined up with the mill).  Usually,  it seems right that the customer gets the difference in value reflected in the different milling times, and it is appropriate that he pay for it. And then once in a while when it doesn't seem right, I just don't charge for all the time. 

[Okrafarmer]

I've been charging hourly, but only done it a couple times. Haven't been pursuing the custom sawing because it is so much trouble. We're not set up for it, I'm needed doing other things most of the time. Today I expect to be bulldozing, for instance. Our mill isn't a real great one for custom production, because the frame isn't very rigid and it takes a lot of trouble to set it up. I'm lucky if I can saw 1,000 ft in a day unless the people provide me with good logs. Hasn't happened yet.... Once it was smaller birch logs that had been lying around for a year or so, another time it was a lot of old dead pine and oak logs that had been lying around for 8 months or so, through the summer, and were miserable to deal with, and I couldn't have charged bf on that one anyway, because most of them he had me saw in two down the middle to make benches of! (For a camp). In both cases, I was under my minimum charge of $400, so it was all good. If the mill were easier to set up, I'd have a smaller minimum charge.

[Red Pill]

You folks who charge by the BF, do you use Doyle scale, or what?

[Okrafarmer]

Or resulting boards, and count them?

[Magicman]

Actual scaled lumber.  For example a 12 foot 1X6 = 6 bf, and an 8 foot 2X4 = 5.3 bf, etc.

[ladylake]

 How about a 1-1/2  x  3-1/2  x  8'   is that scaled as a 2  x 4 ?    Steve

[CalebL]

How about a 1-1/2  x  3-1/2  x  8'   is that scaled as a 2  x 4 ?    Steve

Yes.  I charge by the inch when cutting dimensional.  The only time I don't charge by the inch is when I am cutting random width stuff. 

Here is a job I did this weekend.  Almost 9k foot of pine and oak.  The 1x material I pull my tape across and get the average width for the layers  and just add how many layers I have and times it to get my footage.   All of the dimensional lumber (2x, 4x, etc) is scaled to full inch.   



 


 

 


 

[Dodgy Loner]

Personally, I would not do business with a sawyer that charged by the hour.

I have never paid by anything other than the hour. Sometimes I have logs sawn that are big, straight beauties. I always want random-width (as wide as possible) and a variety of thicknesses, so scaling it all would take a lot of time. With good logs, I come out ahead by paying per hour.

Other times, I have short logs with crotches, burls, or some sort of special personal attachment. Often these get sawed with live edges. I've had logs sawed in half to make benches. How do you calculate the board feet on that? In these instances, I pay more for a specialty product. The sawyer and I both come out happy. There's nothing devious about a sawyer who charges by the hour. For some jobs it's the only thing that makes sense.

[terrifictimbersllc]

You folks who charge by the BF, do you use Doyle scale, or what?

The few times I do it,  by sawn lumber volume.

[Peter Drouin]

I allways go to the customers job to look . Im not going to bring the mill there and find that I cant work because I cant get the mill in there or whatever :D :D I try to see the job before they cut the trees down .then I give them that WM card that shows the log scale and lumber scale. [International] then with there lumber list, they see how much of 8' or 16' logs or what they have to cut. that way they dont have to much 8' logs or are short on the lumber list. I see it all the time, customer cuts all the trees and should have cut 2 more 16' logs but he has all 8  10  12  left and no more trees  :D :D And when I cut 11/2 x 31/2 wood thats what I charge 1.50x 3.50 not 2x4. If you cut 11/2x  31/2 and charge for 2x4 lumber that you did not cut that 1/2" in a 1000 BF job it will add up. to me its not right unless the customer  is ok with that. In the 22+ years I have not had a customer give me free money :D :D Well lunch is over going out to the mill and cut some W pine 14" wide for a customer.  8) 8)

[CalebL]

I allways go to the customers job to look . Im not going to bring the mill there and find that I cant work because I cant get the mill in there or whatever :D :D I try to see the job before they cut the trees down .then I give them that WM card that shows the log scale and lumber scale. [International] then with there lumber list, they see how much of 8' or 16' logs or what they have to cut. that way they dont have to much 8' logs or are short on the lumber list. I see it all the time, customer cuts all the trees and should have cut 2 more 16' logs but he has all 8  10  12  left and no more trees  :D :D And when I cut 11/2 x 31/2 wood thats what I charge 1.50x 3.50 not 2x4. If you cut 11/2x  31/2 and charge for 2x4 lumber that you did not cut that 1/2" in a 1000 BF job it will add up. to me its not right unless the customer  is ok with that. In the 22+ years I have not had a customer give me free money :D :D Well lunch is over going out to the mill and cut some W pine 14" wide for a customer.  8) 8)

So, if I want a bunch of 5/8" thick cedar cut, you are only going to charge me for 5/8" material and not scale it up to 1"? 

I go over all that before I show up to saw.  If a customer has a problem with it, I don't do the job.  However, I have never had someone have a problem with it. 

[customsawyer]

If cut less than 1" I charge for 1" but if I cut thicker than 1" I charge for what I cut. I try to guide the custome in the right direction if they are wanting me to cut something that they shouldn't but if they are sure of what they want I cut what they ask for. My last cutomer wanted all 2X4 out of his 18' logs but one of the logs had many large knots so I sugested to cut 1X lumber out of that one and he agreed. If he had said that he didn't want any 1X then he would have gotten some sorry 2X out of that log. Most customers will agree when you explain your reasons.

[Magicman]

How about a 1-1/2  x  3-1/2  x  8'   is that scaled as a 2  x 4 ?    Steve 

For me, yes.   If the thickness is over ¼", I scale the thickness up to the next even inch.  On wider boards, 7" or less is a 6".  Over 7" is an 8", etc.  On lengths, if the log is less than 10', I scale it as an 8', etc.  In other words, I scale the length down to the next even footage.

The above sounds complicated but I'll point out that in a give and take situation, I always give.  The point is I am not selling lumber, I am selling sawing.

All measuring and scaling is covered with the customer and agreed upon before any work begins, and I will say that I have never had any disagreement about any billing.

[customsawyer]

Custom sawing is about giving your customer good value for the money. It don't matter what you charge or how you charge. If you and the cutomer are both happy then everyone wins.

[Dave VH]

I appreciate you guys all sharing your charging plan.  Someday I hope to be able to do custom work for people.  I have had customers from my other business request it.  Right now my only lumber customer is a pain in the neck that doesn't pay for squat, and I make sure to tell him that every morning when I see him in the mirror.

[Tree Feller]

Personally, I would not do business with a sawyer that charged by the hour.

There's nothing devious about a sawyer who charges by the hour. For some jobs it's the only thing that makes sense.

I wasn't insinuating that it was devious but only stating that I prefer being charged by the BF. I have my hardwood logs sawn into random width 4/4 or 5/4 with an occasional 8/4 plank. Pine I have sawn into full dimension framing lumber.

With a BF price, I have a good idea beforehand what the cost will be and since I haul the logs to the sawyer, there is no minimum charge. It's simply the way I prefer of doing business.

As others have stated, the important result is that I leave happy and the sawyer is happy.

[Okrafarmer]

I have found that when providing this kind of service, or selling lumber to an individual who will use it, price is usually the least important factor to the buyer.

[WDH]

I rarely custom saw because I am not set up for it.  I have done it a few times for people I know, more as a favor, than for money.  I have one elderly old friend that can barely get around that wanted me to saw some cedar for him that another fellow gave him.  I told him that I would do it.  This is what he brought me  .  This will be one of my less productive jobs.



 

I realize that this is pitiful.  I would not do it if he was not such a good friend and on the short end of his last woodworking days.  I probably won't even charge him.  I am not sure that I envy you custom sawyers  :D.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

All I can say is do the best you can for a good cause. You'll be glad you did tomorrow. 

[Magicman]

That looks    like some very valuable Walnut Cedar logs.   :D

[WDH]

I had to step back and swoon a little when I saw them coming in on the trailer.  I asked myself, "What have I done?"  .