Dreams of a cabin

[WmFritz]

For a random photo, it looks pretty good.

Is that about the style your after? I like the roof pitch and the overhang on the gable.

[Magicman]

Pretty slick to be able to build and have that many logs left over. ;D  It's time to add on.   ???

[thecfarm]

Vertical logs and all.

[Gadrock]

When posting the footprint pics...I thought you were going to say "that is the footprints from the smallest 'skeeters!"

And we all know that would be wrong.



Carry on

[Peter Drouin]

So when is it going up?

[Jeff]

Hard to say. A $3000 car repair bill has made anything in the near future impossible.  All I can do for now is stuff I can do myself without much cost. Today I got the old foundation that is right next to where we will build the new foundation filled in and semi-leveled. About all it needs to be as the dirt from the new foundation excavation will probably get piled there. I have the site far enough along as of today to get everything staked out. I could start digging the hole, but I don't have a permit yet or any of the drawings done needed to apply for one.

This is a photo of the site as of this afternoon.



 

I left the old building's fireplace footing in place for historic reasons. I'll find something to do with it. I want to be able to point to it and say that is where the chimney was from the original structure.

[Magicman]

I left the old building's fireplace footing in place for historic reasons. I'll find something to do with it. I want to be able to point to it and say that is where the chimney was from the original structure. 

Jeff, I did the identical same thing at our cabin.  The fireplace bricks are at the edge of the original back porch.

Also I left the landing from the front steps on my Grandparent's home.  It will always be easy to know where the entrance was.   

[D L Bahler]

Jeff,

Get an axe, or two, and chop those logs out yourself.
Lowest cost to build anything! But you'll be tired for the next 5 years...
nearing completion of my cabin made of logs me and my brothers hewed out all by hand...

[Dave Shepard]

I think the WM wins over the axe. :D I think I need shoulder transplants after hewing that white oak last summer.

[D L Bahler]

Come to the TFG conference, I'll show you how it's done  ;D

[beenthere]

D L
Make a video and put it on YouTube. We can all see how it is done then.
I'd like to see, for one.

[D L Bahler]

I hope to, some time.
Maybe someone will video me at the conference. I don't know if I will be doing any hewing this summer.

[Dave Shepard]

Come to the TFG conference, I'll show you how it's done  ;D

Don't worry, I know how to hew.

[Jeff]

I have the site almost prepared for excavating. I have it staked out for a local excavator to look at tomorrow to give me an estimate.  \


 

Tammy and I finished our well house up by putting some left over stain from our house on it, and built a hydrant for easy water access.



  

 

While working I noticed Icey was off somewhere. I looked around and saw her out closer to the road near the driveway with her nose to the ground rummaging around in the weeds. Turns out she found something I had not and was out there grazing on wild strawberries!



  

 

Tammy left for home today. I promised to dogsit here for my sister while they go to Wisconsin for a wedding, so I'll be here until Monday. I then will be home and shift into full pigroast mode and have tro put this dream on hold until August.

[WmFritz]

Jeff, you may have mentioned it... I cant remember. Are you going slab on grade? Footings/ stem wall?

Did thecfarm do a drive-by and dump a load of rock in the middle of the night?  :D

[Jeff]

Since we have some block layers in the family I'm going with block wall foundation.

[thecfarm]

Have rocks,boulders,will travel.  ;D

[Jeff]

So today I had a few minutes where I was thinking about the cabin, and decided to call the building inspector in Chippewa county.  He seemed like a nice enough fellow, but I found out right away he was not a fan if vertical log, and if I go that way, is going to require engineered drawings. He said he would prefer I did post and meam and use vertical log for infill.  If the top is tied together with a horizontal member, wouldn't the whole thing be post and beam anyway, using a couple hundred posts?  :-\

[Gary_C]

Sorry, but no it is not the same. You definitely have some structural design problems to overcome with vertical log construction.

When you place vertical support posts closer and closer together, your end tolerance for cutting to length gets tighter plus the ends must be absolutely perpendicular or you will have more variation in length. Then if you add in the shrinkage factor with logs it adds more uncertainty to the structural integrity of your wall.

The next and even more difficult problem is your resistance to racking of your walls. The best resistance to racking of a wall is the sheathing that is fastened to every vertical and horizontal member in the wall. In a post and beam wall it's the knee bracing plus normally some sheathing on the outside of the wall. You will have to find a way to prevent racking and deal with the ever present log shrinkage problem. If you scale your wall down to 1/24th size it is like trying to stack 4 inch long pencils or 1/4 inch dowels vertical and making them stand perfectly straight at all times.

Next is the bowing problem with a long wall. Your vertical logs offer no resistance to bowing so some horizontal stiffness must be added some way.

Next thing, and a very serious structural problem to deal with is the end grain support at the sill plate. With vertical logs, all the outside moisture will run down the logs and especially down the vertical spaces between the logs. I don't see an easy way to prevent that water from wicking  into the end grain of your logs at the sill plate and causing perpetual wet ends of your wall logs. And anything you put in as a sill sealer will only help trap the moisture at the ends of the logs.

I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but I don't know any easy way to overcome these problems with vertical wall construction. To me, the easy solution is to use stick framing and the vertical logs for outside and perhaps inside siding.

[Jeff]

I disagree with your assessment.  Take those same pencils and try to stack them horizontally, then try and put a roof on them. Apparently in your nick of the woods, they don't do this. Drive over here for a pigroast. I can drive you around the lakes here and show you dozens and dozens that have been standing since the 1940s.  Remember, these are going to be basically flat timbers with two rounded edges exposed. Each one was to be splined and fastened to the next as well as to the sill and the top log plate. The individual parts make up a whole, no different than sticks. They are a very secure wall. Remember where the word stockade comes from? This is also called stockade construction. The doors and window openings would be plated as well with two sided logs. Why would large members like logs on end be any different in wicking than small members like two by fours?  Also, you are only going to wick moisture if there is moisture to wick. That is treated with the first horizontal log sill that the verticals set on. That log gets a groove and flashing, on a deck that is on a treated sill that is on a block foundation.

The problems you present, shrinkage, moisture, and accuracy of construction is omni present in any type of structure.

[Dave Shepard]

Greensted Church is about a 1,000 years old, and is of stave construction, not unlike vertical log. They used a system of rabbets on the bottom to direct the water off the sill, if I remember correctly. There are drawings of it in Cecil Hewitt's "Historic English Carpentry".

[Gary_C]

I disagree with your assessment. 

I kind of expected you would not like what I said and I have been holding back these thoughts because of that expectation. And what I posted was not meant to be criticism of your plan, it was only to make you aware of some the structural problems you will face and most likely the particular design challenges you will have to address to satisfy your building inspector. I would expect the building inspector will be looking for specific plans for how you will deal with these structural design challenges.

Yes, we have many log homes here, but none with vertical log construction or stockade construction as you say. And certainly horizontal log construction also presents some design problems, but not the problem of dealing with stacking logs on end. Believe me you will have problems with diagonal bracing to keep your walls square and upright and especially with supporting a second story.

So please don't shoot the messenger, I was only trying to help you avoid problems down the road.

[Jeff]

Just debating Gary. I have no problem with arguing my point, and take everything in that others may point out. I appreciate the input

I'll not be stacking logs on end as you suggest, they will be standing on end, just like any post in a post and beam. I simply can't see the issue you see of stability in the wall.   Once the components are connected together, the shear mass of the thing will give tremendous strength. Every log is connected to the next, every log is mechanically connected to the sill log and the top plate log with 10 and 12" log screws.  I'm pretty dang sure that a single wall of vertical log construction could stand by itself far longer than any stick built wall if you ran a test to see which one would fall over first using elements like wind or rain or some fool leaning against it.  :D

[Gary_C]

There is nothing I would like more than to come to the Pig Roast and discuss my concerns with you and others, but for more reasons that you can imagine, it's not going to be this year either. So I tried to list my concerns on you cabin construction here:

In any home construction, you have to look at every component and every joint to determine how it will function in the structure. Plus you will have to determine how the various components will work together to maintain the structural integrity of the whole structure.

With conventional construction methods like a stick frame and even a horizontal log home, there are a lot of examples already built to rely on for structural details and construction methods. With vertical log construction and especially vertical log home construction with supporting a second story, I don't see so many. So since you don't have a wealth of trial and error in construction methods to rely on, you must evaluate in fine detail every joint and component to have the best chance for a sturdy livable house.

In a stick frame house, the sheathing both on the inside and outside is a critical component that provides vertical, horizontal, and diagonal strength. It ties all the components in the walls together and makes the walls act like a large stiff and flat I Beam in every direction. But you don't have the luxury of having that component to tie everything together.

So with the joints between the many vertical logs, I understand you are planning to cut grooves on each flat side and insert a plywood spline the entire length of each joint. Plus from what you said, drive long screws horizontally from one log to another. So with that understanding comes the questions.
1. How do you plan to assemble these walls? I assume you will build your walls laying down with the top and bottom plates attached, again with long screws into the end grain of each log. So do you have an assembly method that will hold the assembly square and each log added tight to the next log? You know that screws will not draw the logs together. Each log will need to be clamped tightly to the next one before inserting the screws. When you get to the last vertical log, will you have to shave some off the last log to keep the wall square?
2. How closely do you plan to machine the grooves? Will the inserts fit tightly or will it be a loose fit? Pinned or glued to one side or both?
3. Do you have the means to lift and place the entire wall at once? It's going to be unbelievably heavy. And how will you fasten the bottom plate to the floor/foundation?
4. After the logs shrink, the horizontal screws may be slightly exposed in the gaps between the logs. Will those screws still be enough to maintain the structural strength when the logs are not firmly in contact with each other? And will those screws have the shear strength and bending strength to resist the forces (wind) on the wall when the logs are not in full contact with each other? After the shrinkage you will not have the solid wall you started with at assembly. Essentially at that point you have like one of those mats of large timbers they now use in logging but with loose cross bolts holding them together. That may or may not be exaggerated but it is a big concern.
5. How do you plan to protect the lower ends of the vertical logs from moisture and decay? Those vertical grooves between the logs and the logs themselves will be conduits for moisture that will end up trapped between the sill plates and the end grain of the logs. The only solution I see is massive amounts of caulk and re caulk. A really wide roof overhang will help somewhat, but not eliminate the problem.
6. Finally, how do you replace the tie together from the foundation to the roof that is normally provided by sheathing? I don't know if nails or screws into the end grain of logs will be enough.
I suspect these questions and perhaps others are what your building inspector will demand answers for before he approves your construction. While I can look at a design and make an educated guess at the design problems you will face, I am in no way qualified to be a structural engineer that could judge if your design features are adequate. Things like type, size, numbers and adequacy of screws for example are for someone else to judge. And no doubt, the engineering drawings to provide this detail are not going to be cheap when you are basically forced to invent the wheel. It's too bad you could not pick the brains of the few people that do construct vertical log homes to get the dos and don't of construction but they probably would consider that info proprietary.

What makes the old stockade construction different is I think they buried the log ends in the ground, lashed the logs together at the top and didn't worry much about decay as labor and material were cheap.

So there is some more input.   

[Corley5]

The original Boyne Falls Log Homes were built with vertical white cedar. http://www.cedarhomes.com/about/history/  I wish they showed a picture of one of the originals.  Two houses down from us is a Boyne Falls Home built in the 60's, I think.  It's been there longer than I've been around  ;D  Their system worked.  I still prefer stick built myself  ;) ;D