seeking advice on an ethical delimma

[Don K]

I can't add much to what has been said already. There is no question what you should do. Take the money, no one will think less of you. You seem to be a man who serves and loves God and puts him first in your life. If the church wants to help, allow them too. I'm sure you would not hesitate to do the same if it was someone else and you probably already have.Pray for God's guidance and He will show you His will. I will be praying for you and your wife through this.

Don

[red]

Just to survive these days $450 does not go very far

there may also be some other services you are entitled to that you have stayed away from in the past  maybe even community  groups for people with disabilities   

people in the same situation  that are brought together  and grow

[breederman]

Robert,
  Nobody will think ill of you and your wife for taking the money from the state, it is for people with legitimate disabilities, and she certainly qualifies.  As Jeff said a helping hand has been offered. Some times our pride can get in the way, several years ago our family went through a very rough patch and my wife accepted a few hundred dollars from our church to buy groceries with.  I was livid.  I was also wrong, she had did what needed to be done to feed our kids and the church fund was eventually repaid several times over. 8)  Perhaps you could let your church family have the joy of helping you out now and tithe it all back with the government payments?

[tcsmpsi]

Robert,

As a most unwilling taxpayer, you have my most sincere permission and blessing to TAKE the money.  Please.  I know you won't waste it on a bunch of frivolities and I would much rather see it go to something positive.

Just the fact that it creates an ethical dilemma for you, is a great deal of 'proof'.

[Roxie]

Once upon a time, a very pious man was caught in a flood.  A truck driven by the National Guard drove through flooded streets and the men yelled, "Get in the truck, you'll be saved."  But the pious man said, "My God will save me."  The water got higher and the Coast Guard came by with a boat.  They threw out the line and said, "Grab the line, you'll be saved."  The man replied, "My God will save me."  Then the water was to the roof line, the pious man was on the roof when an Army helicopter hovered over.  They dropped a basket and yelled, "Grab the basket, you'll be saved."  The man replied, "My God will save me."  So, the man drowned and went to heaven and upon seeing God, said, "I prayed for you to save me."  God replied, "Look, I sent a truck, a boat, and a helicopter." 

Don't refuse God's blessings .... they come to us in many different ways.

[rbhunter]

Roxie I like that story and believe it is true. God uses different means to answer prayer.

There was once a boy on a playing on a roof. He slipped and started to slide down the roof and became scared. He said a quick prayer "God please help me". About that time his pants caught on a nail and stopped his slide. He said "never mind".

[KENROD]

  I agree take the state money, that's what it's there for.
Also, strongly consider taking the help your church has offered.
When you get your bills paid you can help do the same for someone
else.

              What comes around goes around.

[jerry-m]

Robert,  I cain't say it any better than what has already been said.

Your wife deserves the money. It is there for her and her needs.
Take it for her... Its her money not yours...


My prayers are with you also,   Jerry

[asy]

Robert, I totally agree with everyone else so far.

If you are honestly entitled to the government payment you SHOULD take it.

Let me put it this way, if the government came to you and said "You only have to pay half the tax you did previously, to compensate for the extra expenses and loss of income due to your wife's alternate-ability" would you say "No, thanks, I'll keep paying the higher tax"?

That's what this amounts to. It's TAX dollars going to where they're SUPPOSED to.

Some of it is YOUR TAX DOLLARS. Whether current, previous, or future, they are your tax dollars too.

I'm sure you would not begrudge someone else in the same situation drawing the same funds. Would you???

As for your church, well, I'm not a church type person, but I must ask you, Who are you to refuse to allow these people, your church family, from feeling good about something they want to do???   ;)

If it was someone else at your church, someone else who does things for the community, and who really needed the money came to the attention of the church, you'd vote to help them out, wouldn't you???

Look, if you are really concerned, maybe take a good mix of the suggestions:

1: Go negotiate with the hospital, there IS profit built in to their fees, and a lot of it. See if you can have that reduced and pay them a fair but reasonable amount.
2: Take the funds from the church, with thanks. See this as an interest free loan (if that's how you want to do this).
3: Take the government pension. PERMANENTLY.
4: Use the pension, in part, say maybe 20% of it or such, to slowly pay back the church's 'loan'.
5: After the loan is repaid, use the pension to make your, and your lovely wife's, lives just that little bit easier.

And, if you truly believe in God, Stop waving the bloody helicopter away.

asy :D

[Bill]

Robert

I agree with logwalker - the big insurers do regularly pay only 60% so why not you. Tell them they will accept that from you too.

Church -v- govt is a tough one. In the way old days we relied on our family, friends and church. Now the govt is involved but I look at it thusly: the govt will give a body a big tax deduction for ( you fill in the blank ) and the person ends up paying less taxes. Think of this govt money as a legitimate tax deduction and you're getting the refund. Its really the undeserving that outa feel guilty about taking public funds  -  not you.

As far as the Church's money - well when you have it you can give them donation(s) - they are there to help people in need.

Hope all goes well for you and yours

[Patty]

When given the opportunity to help a friend in need, most of us will gladly pitch in to help. That gives us the chance to feel real good about ourselves. Give your church the opportunity to help, it will make them feel good. As far as the government help.....well I see it as a small refund for all the thousands of dollars you have paid in. Take what they are offering and get that truck paid off after you have taken care of the hospital bills. When all the debt has been paid and your life is back in order, perhaps you will be given the opportunity to help a friend in need, and you will feel good that you are able to help.

As someone mentioned earlier, you may want to go have a discussion with your insurance agent for selling you such a lousy policy and putting you into this situation to begin with.  >:(    He at least owes you an explanation.

[DanG]

All I can add to this is one more vote to take the money.

36-0

[Bothy_Loon]

37 - 0
That Robert seems way too nice a man.
Hope your wife is OK now.
Bothy Loon

[thurlow]

38 to nuthin............you see a pattern developing here?  I've only been hanging around this board for about a year, but it seems most folks who frequent these forums are working/taxpaying citizens.  I think there would be no hesitation in condemning anyone looking for a free ride or trying to take advantage.  At our little (country) church,  the times when we all come together with one mind and feel best about ourselves is when we help out our fellowman.  Don't deny your church members the opportunity!  As far as the gov't help, it's a no-brainer;  accept it.

[dave7191]

 Made that 39 to nothing  the one thing I 'd been thing off  was when you and yours don't need the state money use it to help the church and other folks in need and use what is neeed for yourselfs that is what it was given for you sound like a hard work  folks that have a little bad luck i would bet their are very few of use on this list that haven't some hard times and had to take a little help

[rebocardo]

Take the state money!

I can only speak for myself. I don't mind my tax money being used for blind people, people
crippled in a wheel chair, war veterans without limbs etc. Because it is still almost
impossible for most of those people with these type of injuries to make it on their own or
earn anywhere near even poverty level. To me, this is a worthwhile government expenditure and it does not even come close to level the earning playing field, it simply helps people survive at a higher level.

I worked helping a blind guy out for a while and everytime I felt bad about my situation all
I had to do was look in the mirror and be glad to see a reflection and not have to depend on
people to take me food shopping or be easy prey for street thugs.

So, take the state money and use it was long as your wife is blind, when she is no longer
blind, do not take the money. The citizens of your state determined that would be a good use of their tax money and I agree. SHE can accept that guilt free.

As for the church helping, that is up you. The only reason we were able to stretch our
budget and move into our current house (and keep it) was because of time, money, food,
professional services, etc. people donated to help us start over. The church even gave us
money when my wife was very sick, had an operation, and was out of work and unable to care for the four kids (now have five) so I had to stay home too.

As a pastor, minister, or other position in a church you never want to even give the
impression of fleecing the flock. Which was Paul's point of doing his tent making and
providing his own way for two years in his own house/apartment.

> possibly getting my truck repo'd because of chronic late payments over the last few months.

As Christians we frequently forget God's good advice about usury and to avoid it. Of that, I
am guilty too. God does not want his servents in debt to Satan. Ditch the truck, pay off the
loan, and have good credit for things directly related to your homestead. Use the $450 a
month to save up for a $1200 truck. Then use the $450 a month to have a good reserve
($10,000) in the bank and then start using it to pay down your mortgage and bills.

What I would consider acceptable is after you sell your truck, asking if anyone in the
church had a free truck they are not using or one that you could buy on terms such as $100 a month. I do not see how anyone could object to that.

re:horse trailer
They hardly ever come up for sale here locally and when they do, they are beat up pieces of
junk. I would say since you have at least two horses, hold onto the trailer because if you
own a horse and it gets sick, you have to transport it even if you borrow a truck to do it.
It is not as easily or cheaply replaced as a truck.

Last of all, but, not least. Go to this website

http://www.biblegateway.com/

set to NKJV

and search for "usury"

Don't take a man's word or your own decision on the best course of action, read God's word, then go to bed and think about it for a night or two while silently (why give Satan an advantage by praying outloud) asking for guidance. Pray with your wife and be of one accord.

Proverbs 13
Psalms 119:33
Ecc 12:13

[Robert R]

I have to say, the first time I read all these replies, I had to walk away and regain my composure before I could reply.  Thank you all for your support, including the numerous private replies as well.

The truth is, it does boil down to a pride issue.  When she was in the hospital, I got scolded by her mother for not being there when she showed up to visit.  Of course, I would have been there but I was across town at another hospital visiting someone else in far worse shape (and yes, I went with my wife's blessing).  After she was home and word got around church that she had been sick, an older lady I deeply respect really read me the riot act about not calling for help.  All I could think of at the time was "I'm the chaplain, I help other people, not ask for other peoples' help".  Bluntly put, that is sin on my part that I need to deal with (Thank God for Grace). 

We are going to go ahead and accept the government money, at least for now.  We will see what we feel about it after the debt is cleared.  As for the truck, we are going to have to part with it.  I've (wrongfully) grumbled about folks using food stamps and driving better vehicles than me.  I can get by without one, at least temporarily and then replace it with a more modest one when all the other things that seem to add up so quickly are taken care of. 

Again thank you for the advice and most of all, for the prayers.  We both do appreciate it.

[Quartlow]

make it ,,,41-0? If my counting is right.

Take the the state money and run, it may not be there in two years. The way our government works you never know.
Take the help from the church. Don't worry your turn will come to help out the church and you know you will  ;)

[pineywoods]

Make that 42 - 0. I agree completely with these posts. No ethics involved.These are helping hands being extended to you, embrace them. I would like to add something from a slightly different perspective, but first a little background. My wife is severely disabled due to a nasty stroke 6 years ago, cannot walk without a cane. A while back she laid the cane down to reach for a water hose, fell and damaged a hip so badly it had to be replaced. read massive medical bills, poor insurance coverage, long and painful, never complete recovery. Like your wife, she would qualify for some assistance, but again like your situation, we prefer to pay our own way, which thankfully we have managed to do. Now here's the kicker, which I sense may be true for you. I can't help thinking, if I had been there with her, this wouldn't have happened. It's a difficult thing to understand unless you've been there. It can eat away at your very soul. In my case I don't think I would have ever come to grips with the circumstances had it not been for the love and support of my church family.
You have the same available to you, if you need it, use it.

[konrad695]

43-0  Accept the state money.  Set up a payment plan with the hospitol for the amount of the state funds.  When everything is squared away you can deposit the rest.  If you feel guilty about still getting the money when the bills are paid then just pass it on.  A good accountant should be able to set up a scholarship for whatever you want.  This way you can lower your burden now and help someone else later.  My thoughts are with you and your wife. 

[Faron]

44-0   God bless you folks, Robert.

[Riles]

44-0-1.  I'll take the position that it doesn't matter what you do. You've got your head on straight and will come out of this in better shape than ever before. The best thing to come out of this for you is a little tweak in your perspective on life. Should make you a better chaplain.

[farmerscotty]

Robert,  I understand your determination to take care of all this yourself.  I applaud that very much and I do understand where you are coming from on this.  What I think you are missing is the big picture on part of it.  I personally think you should take the money from the state for you wife.  But, that is not what I want to address.  I am a Christian and will help others as much as I can, we are suppose to because the bible tells us to!  Being more Christ like brings us closer to God in our everyday walk.  The point I want to make is this.....from previous experience.   Ok,  here goes!   Christians should accept help from other Christians or there church.  Your church is your family and they want to help you thru a troubled time.  Now I would say you have a troubled time, and it is NOT up to anyone else to judge your trouble.  What is important is that a blessing is recieved by the help and a blessing is given to someone that helps.  We get stuck on this "macho man thing" or something similar that says.......ok now I can surely take care of myself and my family by myself....... Or it is a sign of weakness that I cannot.  I sure don't want to show a sign of unorganization or weakness!  So I will just trudge along and take care of all my problems just me and hopefully GOD. 

Well I learned that people get a blessing from helping someone that needs help.  It is not like your going to be asking for help or food or money or hay, or a tractor or a chainsaw everytime you turn around.  You are being a witness to others by letting fellow Christians help you, by accepting the help of others.  One never knows who is watching or what many great things could come from something like this.  I

My experience was much simpler I have to admit, but the concept was the same.  I farm full time, raising alfalfa hay and beef cattle.  The man that helped me got sick (heart attack) so I had to do all my farm work by myself, (it was easier by myself).  To train someone would take time and tear ups costing money.  I had offers, but I didn't want stuff tore up!  The one thing I was neglecting was my yard, it was the last thing on the list to do!  I had couple of friend dumping there leaf mess in an old pond, they worked at this commercial.  Finally after weeks of pestering me I let them mow my yard for me.......2 or 3 or 4 times.  That is where I learned the blessing of receiving and giving of blessings.  They wanted to help me so bad and were thrilled to get the opportunity to do just that.  Me, I was being what I think is selfish by not letting anyone help me.  Whew!  I hope that helps your decisions. 

I wonder how many times that summer I was offered help and refused, bet it was 50 or 60 times.  I should have taken more of my church friend up and let them help another Christian.

Your brother in Christ

Scott

[sawguy21]

I went through a rough time a few years ago, lost my job, my home, and finally had to swallow my pride and declare bankruptcy. I was loathe to ask for help solving my problems. One day I got an unexpected package by courier. Two couples I have known well for many years got together and sent me over $600, including some from their kids One couple was also in financial difficulty yet found the resources to help out. What do you say to friends like that?
My point is that we never know where help will come from. It is no sin to receive a genuine gift with no strings attached and the government services are there for people in your position. I hope you swallow your pride, accept what is offered and move on contributing what and when you can. That is what makes our society work.

[Murf]

Robert, you and your good wife take the money, she *deserves* it, it is after all, as was mentioned, just people helping people, the truly Christian concept of help.

While talking to those nice people at the Gubernmint about the 'pension' you should also inquire about medical coverage, those who can't work because of a condition like your wife's often qualify for either medical coverage, or at least help with big bills like you have now.

You won't know till you ask.  :

I'll keep you two in my prayer's, keep us up-dated.