When is it slower to go bigger?

[shelby78]

I have a norwood lumbermate 2000 with a 13hp honda. To me, i wish it would cut faster but i have been doing alot of wide oak lately. I'm in the market for a hydraulic mill (maybe a lt40) but am wondering something... Watching the videos right from woodmizers site it doesn't look like its cutting much faster than my mill does?

My question is how much hp will the hydraulics suck up? What about the alternator?  Basically if i do switch to a woodmizer it would probly be a 28hp gas. I know all the extras draw hp, but how much? Is a 28 hp hydraulic equal power wise to a 23hp standard or maybe even lower? When its cold i will also assume it will draw more amps to feed/head movement so in turn draw more hp...

I have my mill up for sale but don't want to set myself up for dissapointment getting a new mill thinking it should cut twice as fast with twice the hp. Your thoughts?

Does anyone have any video of themself cutting oak on a lt40? I took a video of myself cutting on my mill with some wider oak and will host it somewhere to post.

[thecfarm]

Are you comparing a manual mill to a hyd one? My Thomas,20 hp, will probably cut as fast as a LT40. I have no way to know for sure.But when it comes to turning the log,I fall behind,QUICK.  :D Loading too is slow for me.

[drobertson]

Shelby, I honestly tried to do a video. My camera has a short term memory loss close to mine.  I can tell you this, I can process a 12" log into a tie with 4 side boards in just under 5 min.  this is edging, end cutting the tie to length, and  starting another log by myself. 3 min with my son helping.  The hydraulics on the super 40 remote command are pretty quick with some experience.  I am not sure about your mill, or any other gas powered mill. Sorry about this, just don't know.  The wider boards, bigger logs do take a little longer, but I have found that if all is right with blade alignment, belt tension, blade tension and a sharp blade, there is not a big difference in the cut time between a 9" cut and a 14" cut, as an example.  It really depends on exactly what your plans are, and how much production you really plan on getting out.  With a quicker cut time, it means more logs if you want to, and if you cut more logs there will be that many more slabs to deal with. And sawdust and the usual debris, which means more cleaning. Just saying, you will and can cut faster with more hp, it all depends on your set up.   davd,  I know I left out many details, but just a brief overview,

[paul case]

I have been there.
Life is much sweeter with hydraulics. I had to change the motor on my mill and It is cutting as fast as the EZ boardwalk mill did.

Here is my thread on the upgrade.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,55284.0.html

PC

[Okrafarmer]

The power feed on the WM and probably all other similarly equipped sawmills is adjustable. The speed you can go through any particular wood is determined by several things, but primarily by the sharpness of the blade, the speed of the blade, and the sustained torque of the engine. Blade alignment can also affect things.

I cut pecan with the 24-hp LT-40 the other day, and it was at maximum capacity. I had some cuts that came in at 25 inches or so in some spots. I had to slow down to a crawl. But remember. I was cutting 25 inches of devil-wood. Crotch wood, at that. My engine's a little worn out, too, and may not produce all 24 hp.

I started with a manual mill, and I'm glad I did. The Woodmizer has 7 power features, of which the Turner mill I was using, had only one (power up/down for the saw head).

The power feed is a definite improvement over pushing a carriage by hand (or cranking it) not just because it reduces your fatigue, but because it allows your hands to be free for doing other things while the mill operates. It's probably not a recommended procedure, but I sometimes off-bear my previous cut's lumber while the mill is sawing the next slice. Not to mention there are any number of things I can do with my hands free.

The power blade-guide arm is an awesome feature. Especially when milling live-edge pecan!  You want to keep that guide roller as close to the edge of the log as possible. Being able to quickly and easily adjust it on the fly is very beneficial when you are doing obstinate logs.

The power up/down is actually the one feature I would be ok with doing without, if I had a good hand-crank like on the manual Norwood mills. But it does help a lot, especially when you need to go all the way up or all the way down with the head, it really saves fatigue.

The power side supports are good, they will save you a little time. Unlike manual ones, you can operate them with a certain amount of weight on them, to help fine-tune the positioning of a log. The hydraulic clamp is good too, especially the two-plane clamp found on the new Woodmizers. Mine is the older 5-inch flipper clamp.

The hydraulic log turner is worth every penny and more. That is my absolutely favorite hydraulic feature. When I put my first 150 bf sweetgum log up there, and hit that turn lever, and that log weighing, who knows, maybe 1500 lbs, just turned over as easily as if I were changing the radio station-- that was a magical moment.

The hydraulic log loader is good, especially if you go out on mobile jobs a lot. There is a missionary book entitled "where there is no doctor" and a companion book, "where there is no dentist." These books give non-medically trained personnel some very basic understanding of how to save lives when there is no one else more professional to help. Well, the Woodmizer addition to the series could be called "Where there is no forklift." That's where your log loader comes in. Simply peav the log onto the Woodmizer loader tongs, and you can safely lift that big old honking log right up onto there, without a tractor. I haven't found a log yet that it wouldn't lift. That pecan log had to be over 2,000 lbs. and it picked it right up. The loader also works as a convenient place to hold flitches or cants you are planning to edge or resaw on the mill, or a place to keep the milled lumber up off the ground until you are ready to stack it. If you are working alone, for instance. I personally use it to put the lumber onto and then I am easily able to pick the bundle up with the Bobcat and waddle off with it. The loader feature is not 100% necessary, if you have a tractor or forklift of some kind to use, but if you don't, you definitely want the loader. Even if you do have a tractor or forklift, the loader is still a useful feature.

Then there are the power toe-boards. I really like them too. I have the old spade-type on my 1990 LT-40HD, but the newer roller type ones are handier, I been told.  ;D Seeing how I find the old type so useful, you will do even better with the new type. Makes it much easier to level out your logs and choose how you cut in relation to the pith or the outer grain of the log. The toe boards are also useful in some cases to help stabilize oddly-shaped logs and cants, and to perform some useful "cant management" tricks.

You don't have to buy a Woodmizer to get these features. Most of the features are available by most of the higher quality band mill manufacturers.

[FeltzE]

Raw cutting speed is limited by (mostly) the blade and secondly by engine hp.   Any 1 1/2 inch band mill should cut at the same basic rate than any other 1 1/2 inch band mill. If you have more HP you could have greater FPM in the cut allowing for faster cuts but I am not aware of individual mills rates.

All the hydraulics, bells, whistles, make life better at the saw. Remember your not cutting lumber unless the saw is in the cut. So everything that makes prep, setup, log handling, debarking faster makes the sawmill more effecient.

Lastly someone mentioned more sawmilling equals more logs, slab, sawdust, dutritis, lumber to handle. So don't forget your support equipment requirements.

Another option may be finding a used edger and handle your flitch through the edger which increases your throughput as well.

[bandmiller2]

There is far more time to be saved with hydraulic log handling than the paltry gains from feeding faster.The band is cutting for a short time in the log handling cycle.Myself I have a 15hp three phase motor running my mill pushing a 1 1/2" band,I can overpush the saw before I run out of power.It would be interesting to have someone that knows watch you mill and make suggestions about how you can work more efficiently.Time is lost log handling not cutting. Frank C.

[Magicman]

I have never had an opportunity (before or after I bought my sawmill) to watch someone else saw.  I guess that is one reason why I enjoyed the short video that was recently posted showing a bandsaw sawing operation.

None of my sawing techniques are "store bought" but learned the hard way by the seat of my pants.   :-\

[drobertson]

Amen to the school of hard knocks, and bandmiller you are spot on with the handling, the lt 70 I was working on just a lil while back had totally different controls, and the chain roller for turning the log, major learning curve for this mill, and then to cut from the end of the mill cutting towards me.  The mill will fly through the log and then I was tumbling the logs around pretending to be a debarker :D  I get bake to my mill and it just feels so good!  Like putting on the favorite pair of boots.

[Okrafarmer]

I get bake to my mill and it just feels so good!

Personally, I would think that would hurt!
:D :D :D :D

Sorry. Had to.

[Cedarman]

The only time money is being made is when the blade is making sawdust.  But in turn, just because the blade is running, doesn't mean you are making money.  ( You could be miscutting the log and other mistakes).  The focus is on maximizing the profit.  Getting the blade going through wood as much as possible should be a top goal.  Efficient handling of material is key.
Put a stop watch to all the things you do.  You will be surprised at the small percentage of time the blade is making sawdust in the course of an hour.

[Okrafarmer]

And you should have a helper run the stopwatch, otherwise even that will slow you down.  ;)

[Chuck White]

I have a norwood lumbermate 2000 with a 13hp honda. To me, i wish it would cut faster but i have been doing alot of wide oak lately. I'm in the market for a hydraulic mill (maybe a lt40) but am wondering something... Watching the videos right from woodmizers site it doesn't look like its cutting much faster than my mill does?

My question is how much hp will the hydraulics suck up? What about the alternator?  Basically if i do switch to a woodmizer it would probly be a 28hp gas. I know all the extras draw hp, but how much? Is a 28 hp hydraulic equal power wise to a 23hp standard or maybe even lower? When its cold i will also assume it will draw more amps to feed/head movement so in turn draw more hp...

I have my mill up for sale but don't want to set myself up for dissapointment getting a new mill thinking it should cut twice as fast with twice the hp. Your thoughts?

Does anyone have any video of themself cutting oak on a lt40? I took a video of myself cutting on my mill with some wider oak and will host it somewhere to post.

Most of the extras are not in use while the blade is actually cutting!
The hydraulics, the loader, turner, toe boards, clamp, log stops, and the electrical up/down are not doing anything while you're cutting.

About the only electrical that is doing anything is the feed, the charging system and the lube-mizer.

This youtube video might help you out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O01vkDEMoyY

[beenthere]

but learned the hard way by the seat of my pants.

And you can sit and ride, while others have to walk.   ;D

[Magicman]

I love my seat, and can not imagine life sawing without it.   

[drobertson]

Hey Okra, almost thought that might get arise out of you :D  I lost track of posts, but if the 40's could drag back a 7X9, I would be a lil happier man, I am blessed, just not with the 70.  If you get the chance, I would recomend running it.  And speaking just for myself, I really like my boots ;D  The bottom line is moving material, whether it is sawdust through the log, or getting logs on the deck, or moving slabs, and lumber, as someone had mentioned before.  It's almost like becareful what you ask for because you just might get it.   

[shelby78]

 Thanks for all the replys, but i guess my question wasen't direct enuff for some of you. I know the hydraulics will speed up the total process. My only concern is blade cutting speed. I don't want to spend a small fortune to have a mill that cuts just as fast as my manual.. Notice i said "cut"

I will be going hydraulic anyway you look at it so that is a moot point. If a 28 hp gas (like one i am looking at) is only marginally faster than my mill "in the cut" i'm better of trying to go for the lt70 with a 62hp cat that i'm also looking at.

I do do some portable milling as a service and so far my mill and one other guy that has the same are the biggest in the area that i know of. I want to be the fastest, (Also best quility but thats a givin) biggest, portable mill going so everyone comes to me vs the other guy. I do have a regular 40 hour a week job (Killing trees) so this is just a extra cash thing.

I bought my lumbermate 2000 this spring and just selling oak i have almost broke even on it. I told myslef when i did that i would upgrade. Alot of my cutting is maxing out my lumbermate which bring me to the next question..

The hydraulic loaders... Don't they only claim they can lift like 3200lbs or so? By the math i have seen even a 10-12 fter oak 31 inches is over 4000lbs. How do you get a 18fter up? These numbers are going from memory (not the best) so feel free to correct me here (or anywhere)

Also even if hydraulics aren't running anything they are driving the pump is costing hp. Some poeple just take things as they are but i am not one of them. I want the most from everything i have.

I watched my little video and i am slower than i thought. It takes me 45 seconds to get thru a 16 inch wide white oak cut. If i remember right it was a 9fter. The oak is 22 inches at the widest and there is some locust also.



 



  



 



 

[Dave Shepard]

The more HP, the faster the cut, limited by the capacity of the band. A 28 HP Wood Mizer will cut faster than your current (13 HP?) mill. The hydraulics on the WM are run off of the battery. There will be some alternator load, but not enough to notice. I believe the WM loader is rated at 4400 pounds.

[shelby78]

The more HP, the faster the cut, limited by the capacity of the band. A 28 HP Wood Mizer will cut faster than your current (13 HP?) mill. The hydraulics on the WM are run off of the battery. There will be some alternator load, but not enough to notice. I believe the WM loader is rated at 4400 pounds.

Now thats some info i can use! I wrongly assumed there was a drivin hydraulic pump. If the hydraulics run only off the battery then your not loosing alot of hp. Thanks!

[drobertson]

Shelby, I got into sawmilling after 22 years of maching steel,  Machining is machining. It boils down to speeds and feeds.  As mentioned before by a few of the folks that have burnt allot of sawdust here on the forum will tesiify, material handling, consisting of cut time, log handling, lumber stack handling, slabs and the rest of the debris all add up. But, if you want to go faster through the log get a 1-1/2 to 2" blade.  As I said earlier, I can on a bad day cut through a 12" log, in under 5 minutes, and the bigger logs exceeding 20+ inches under 10 min. and based on the heavy slabs you showed, quite sure it would be quicker than that.  A 51hp cat, or what ever else in the same range will do the same.  this is with the Accuset 2 set works and a good plan.  It takes just a lil time but it will all work out.  I dont' know much about the 38 hp engines, but I am pretty sure from this size and up most folks will have very similar results.  And not to be critical, but some of the slabs looked to have some major dips or diving or the like. Not a problem if there is available stock for finishing.  But, a sure sign of belt, blade or the comination of both due to lack of tension in either of both of them.  This can happen with any mill if the drive belt tension, blade tension, or even blade alignment gets off.
There is some difficult wood species out there to cut, and each has to be handled on an individual basis.  Quality is first and foremost, unless you are in production, and even then you have to know the requirements for the stock being cut. Horse power is not the answer to every problem, but it does remove a few issues that arise when a process is refined and one can go faster, then more hp is required.  Just my opinion, and again, I most likely left out many things, and I hope more folks will chime in, it has been a rough night here, my wife is a kindergaten teacher here in our town, and our hearts are just a bit heavy.   David

[YellowHammer]

I had a 15 Hp LT-15 mill and could advance the blade travel about 1/2 to 3/4 inch per revolution of the blade based on tooth marks left in the board. With the 34 hp diesel on my LT-40 I can get 1 inch to 1 1/2 advance per revolution on the blade using the same  WM 7 degree series band in red oak.
More than twice as fast cutting speed with the same blade and a bigger, more torquey engine
YH

[customsawyer]

The LT70 will out cut a Norwood. It is like you are comparing a Ford Ranger to a F450.

[paul case]

The Guys said it but not very plain.

The hydraulics on a wm lt40 and other wms are 12 volt dc and dont run when sawing.The pump on mine only runs when a valve lever is pulled. The head/ rail has a contact strip so that the head has to be back within 5' of the start end to run the hydraulics.
I coudn't be happier with my LT40, unless it woud be switched over to electric motor to run the blade so it didnt use so much fuel $.
It aint the biggest most powerfull widest throat heavy log lifting/turning mill on the market.  Good luck on that one.PC

[shelby78]

Shelby, I got into sawmilling after 22 years of maching steel,  Machining is machining. It boils down to speeds and feeds.  As mentioned before by a few of the folks that have burnt allot of sawdust here on the forum will tesiify, material handling, consisting of cut time, log handling, lumber stack handling, slabs and the rest of the debris all add up. But, if you want to go faster through the log get a 1-1/2 to 2" blade.  As I said earlier, I can on a bad day cut through a 12" log, in under 5 minutes, and the bigger logs exceeding 20+ inches under 10 min. and based on the heavy slabs you showed, quite sure it would be quicker than that.  A 51hp cat, or what ever else in the same range will do the same.  this is with the Accuset 2 set works and a good plan.  It takes just a lil time but it will all work out.  I dont' know much about the 38 hp engines, but I am pretty sure from this size and up most folks will have very similar results.  And not to be critical, but some of the slabs looked to have some major dips or diving or the like. Not a problem if there is available stock for finishing.  But, a sure sign of belt, blade or the comination of both due to lack of tension in either of both of them.  This can happen with any mill if the drive belt tension, blade tension, or even blade alignment gets off.
There is some difficult wood species out there to cut, and each has to be handled on an individual basis.  Quality is first and foremost, unless you are in production, and even then you have to know the requirements for the stock being cut. Horse power is not the answer to every problem, but it does remove a few issues that arise when a process is refined and one can go faster, then more hp is required.  Just my opinion, and again, I most likely left out many things, and I hope more folks will chime in, it has been a rough night here, my wife is a kindergaten teacher here in our town, and our hearts are just a bit heavy.   David

I know feeds and speed as i have a metal lathe and milling machine in my garage and use them for building guns from scratch for a hobby. I know a 51hp cat will cut faster.. What i said is i might better go to the 51hp if the 28 doesn't cut twice as fast as my 13hp. I have been baseing my opinions on woodmizer videos on there site and they look to be cutting slower than i thought they should.

I believe what you percive to be cuts and dives is a combo of broken off bark and bad angle/lighting. I will take some head on pics tommorrow to show the slab again. They are flat

[shelby78]

The LT70 will out cut a Norwood. It is like you are comparing a Ford Ranger to a F450.

You clearly never read the whole thing or didn't understand what i was trying to get across. There was no way i was trying to compare a lt70 to my 13hp norwood.