The Good and Bad of Ties

[Ohio_Bill]

The Good

A market that never seems to dry up.
Great over scale if logs are 11, 12 or 13 inch diameter.
$$$ Up to 500 per K
Minimal sawing for amount of bf produced.
A way to add value to low grade logs.


The Bad

They are heavy 265 lbs for a 7 by 9
Most loggers don't have a clue what it takes to make a tie log.
You can go broke quick if you buy logs that won't make ties.
The heart of a grade 8 ft log won't work unless over 8 foot 6 inches long.



Over the past 14 years Ties have been a big source of my income. I have done several timber improvement cuts, which has produced a lot of low grade logs. Because I am the logger I buck with ties in mind.
The market has always been there and no problem with slow cash flow.
This year I have cut quite a bit of nice hardwood timber and found out early on the grade logs would bring more than the lumber I could produce so they get sold to the Big Boys. I save the low grade and buck them into tie lengths . This has allowed me to add value to the low grade tops.

I have supplied most all of the tie logs that I saw. The few loads that I have bought have not been a good experience.

I started cutting ties on LT15 and had two strong nephews for help. My nephews have since grown up so I now have a LT40SH helping with the lifting.


I was wondering if anyone else is using ties as an income stream and how you are dealing with log supply.


Bill

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Hey Bill, I do not saw ties but I gotta tell ya, I have learned a lot from your post.
Thanks and we appreciate the great pics.  :christmas:

[Okrafarmer]

To the list of "bad" I would mention that they don't pay squat for ties around here. Maybe $20 apiece, which is pittance compared to lumber.

[paul case]

Okra,
It may not seem like much for ties. Ours are at $22 each and that figures about $.48 bdft. That is pretty good compared to the low quality lumber that comes from the heart of the log. Ties are a good way( the highest paying right now) to sell the heartwood of hardwood logs.

Ohio bill,
I saw some ties now and then too. Big rough logs that are hard on the ends make good ties and  I can sort some of those out of the 10' logs I get and cut them off after sawing them. I have been doing some of my own logging along and when I do I can target cut for 8'8'' ties. The outside lumber I seem to only be able to sell as pallet lumber right now. If a grade market came around I could peddle quite a lot of jacket boards to it, but for now it is sized to make 4x cants for the resaw.
I have to deliver them to a mill 15 miles away that cuts a TT load and the buyer buys them there and pays me by a check in the mail. 20 to a bundle. I have a hand winch that has a pulley up high in the ceiling of the sawshed to drag and stack those ties. My old mill dont have those nice rollers on the toeboards.
PC

[circlesawn]

I live in the NW, is there any market for doug fir ties?  Are there different grades of ties or do they have some minimum spec that has to be met?  Thanks.

[Okrafarmer]

My best live edge lumber comes out of the middle of knotty logs. I ask $1-3 / bf for most of my green lumber, depending on species. Walnut is $3.50 and up. I've sold mostly maple and cedar in the last week. KD cedar I sold for $3/ bf. The maple was $1.75 / bf for silver maple thick slabs,, $2.50 for a  red maple live edge slab taken from the heart of a crotch log. (Couldn't have made a tie out of that one anyway). The silver maple log was cut just too short to make a tie, but if it had been a little longer, it would have made a good tie-- but I prefer to sell it as mantels, benches, and table tops. Another name for a tie is a rustic mantel.  ;D The log was about 18" diameter. I sold less than half of the lumber from that log in one sale for $120. The log had been sitting around for about six months. I still have the rest of it to sell, including the center slab. This log was fairly clear wood, though, very boring grain. Silver maples are like that.

[hackberry jake]

I have sold a few ties, I don't have my operation set-up so deal with the weight of ties. Just got a bunch of roller tables though, the jr will be modified if I ever get the time.

[Ron Wenrich]

I sawed a lot more than you do on a band mill.  Usually we saw at least 1 load a week, if we're in those types of species.  We saw a lot of different lengths, so not all logs are suited for ties.  Any log that is 8' and tie species is cut to tie length.  It does give waste to your other blocking and boards, but the extra can be helpful in board trimming, or used to make a better grade board.

One thing I look at is the alternate return that you get from sawing a tie into lumber.  I saw all my stock down to blocking, usually a 3½x6.  A tie price would be about $22 FOB mill.  Blocking is $420/Mbf delivered.  Its easy to lose $10/Mbf in delivery costs.  That pallet cant will fetch $5.88.  That leaves $16.12 to get to breakeven in the remaining lumber.

Due to the over thickness and saw kerf, you'll end up only getting about 17 bf from the lumber.  That ends up being about an average of $950/Mbf lumber from those boards.  In today's markets, its pretty hard to average that in a tie quality log.  One board that is 2 Com will make your decision to pull boards from a tie a costly one. 

The other factor to consider is that your sawing costs go down when sawing ties.  You get better volume in a less amount of time, and that reduces costs.  The lower sawing costs should also be considered when looking at the alternate return.

You can talk about all those high prices in niche markets.  The problem is the market isn't big enough to handle all the logs into niche material.  If you did, the laws of supply and demand bites you, and prices would drop as the market dries up.  Reality is that you need other types of markets if you plan to do any type of volume. 

[Bibbyman]

Our two major problems with sawing ties are ;

1) Getting in logs bucked up right to make ties.  Our logger concentrates on veneer and stave logs. The rest are bucked up into "junk" and brought to us. They don't even make an effort to measure the length when bucking them.

2) End trimming to length adds a lot of time and struggle. We'll saw out a bunch and then some time later I'll come back and trim to length with a chainsaw.

If we cut ties for a living, we'd have to have a crosscut saw in line with the mill. And a logger that would make an effort to make tie logs.

[Ron Wenrich]

Are you double end trimming your ties?  That's not necessary with out buyer.  They do that at their yard.

[stavebuyer]

Ties are one of the best wholesale markets for the small mill for several reasons. First as Ron noted when you figure the residual value of the cant; its hard to make the lumber average better any other way. Second if you ever sell wholesale grade lumber it simplifies the number of sorts as you only have one length. Most grade lumber markets want at a minimium a 5 length separation and some will want both a grade and length separation. On the downside it does take a better log than most loggers seem to think. When cutting my own timber I averaged 95%+ good ties; buying logs delivered that number drops off by 5-15%.

While splits will hurt a tie, stain does not. Gives the small guy time to put a load together without worrying about lumber stain. The downside for the small producer who is selling side lumber is that you have to saw a lot of logs to get a truckload of lumber when most of the footage remains in the tie. I trade a lot of white oak logs. The money spent buying one load of stave logs will buy 3 or 4 loads of tie logs so a 30 day supply of tie logs requires a lot less money than a 30 day supply of grade logs.

Another good thing about ties is most everything is an "upgrade" ie the log is generally purchased at a lower price per mbf than the finished tie brings. Grade logs will generally have a cant and a portion of the lumber near the heart that brings less per mbf than is paid for the log. Very many downgrades will put you in the hole as your unlikely to get the premiums paid to a larger grade mill for the upper grades sorted by length, grade, and color.

Side lumber can be an issue for the small mill. I am fortunate to have market that buys both my ties and side lumber at market price. For those that don't; when you figure the percentage of "uppers" actually in tie siding by the time you figure grading and separating you can sell the lumber all to a flooring market and still do just fine.

The best way to "loose" cutting ties is trying cut a tie out of log that won't make one.

:christmas:

[bandmiller2]

I think its important for small milling operations to stay flexable,ties can be a good fallback if you have nothing better.Remember most "specialist" critters go extinct. Frank C.

[dgdrls]

In response to Circlesawns Question.

http://www.rta.org/faqs-main

I think a small shop would be hard pressed to
manage (manhandle) the darn things.
Material handling equipment is a must,

DGDrls

[WH_Conley]

Ties have put beans on my table many times.

[Okrafarmer]

I think its important for small milling operations to stay flexable,ties can be a good fallback if you have nothing better.Remember most "specialist" critters go extinct. Frank C.

Generally for me if a cant is bad enough to only be worth a tie, it's not good enough to be a tie anyway. I haven't been buying many logs, but when I do, .30-.35 / bf is all I would have to pay for oak. But I can't go through material fast enough to make money on .48 / bf products. .18 / bf is a very slim margin unless you are able to produce thousands and thousands of bf of it in day. I have been looking into sawing ties, but so far, it looks like a last ditch attempt at cutting losses. With sweetgum I may be able to make it work, since it is available for .20 / bf or less, and it is easy on the saw blade. But the outer jackets of the sweet gum is less profitable for me than oak is. Also, the more profitable sweetgum grade lumber is from near the pith, since that is the more beautiful stuff.

[drobertson]

Howdy Ohio Bill,  I cut ties too, 6X8's and 7X9's,  12 bucks and 22 bucks  for them. the one inch goes to local flooring mills,  It is a very competitive market buying logs, the bigger mills have all but locked up most of the loggers, and the big ones have bought up most of the timber tracts as well.  Thankfully there is always a need for custom work.  :christmas:

[paul case]

Hey Okrafarmer,
I am not trying to persuade you to cut ties, but there is more to it than meets the eye.
First the scale overrun on logs that are tie size is between 40% and 60%. So you get more than what you pay for. The mills around me only pay $.30 bdft doyle scale on tie logs. The logs I have been buying have some tie logs in them and I am only paying $.25  for them. Even if you pay $.30 for a log that scales 75  with a 50% overrun it will yeild 125 bdft. The initial cost of the log is $22.50. When divided into the actual it is more like $.18 bdft log cost. That makes the tie pay you back about $.30 bdft. This is what I charge to saw custom so it works out pretty well. I have a forklift to load the bundle on my trailer, but the winch that I drag them off the mill with would easily stack them so I wouldnt really need extra equipment to saw ties.

Second is the time in cutting. You certianly dont have as much time in cutting a  tie from the heart as you would slicing it into 1x or 2x boards.

Third is the market. as eluded to the tie market seems pretty constant and they do seem to pay in a timely manner.

The drawback is that anything will not make a tie. My buyer will not accept ties with shake that goes more than 1/3 of the way around the ring. No heart rot. If it has a heart check it must be contained in the end of the tie. Heart must be 1.5'' in the tie or 1.5'' out of the tie. Very little bark and it must be trimmed off with a knife. He is also species specific. Some of the species on the list in the link that dgdrls provided my buyer will not take.

When the grade market here fell apart ties kept quite a few mom and pop pallet makers doors open.
Ties are a good way to market log guts. PC

[Ohio_Bill]

Okrafarmer     I love your comment   (Another name for a tie is a rustic mantel.) I'm just not sure there is a market for truck loads of rustic mantels in my location.  I'm not much of a retail salesman and that is why ties appeal to me. I just saw them, put them on the truck, and cash the check. I have never taken the time to develop a retail market and that is a short coming on my part.

Ron, Thanks for explaining that if a tie was cut into inch lumber it would only be 17bf. That is a great tid bit of information.

Thank you everyone that has shared there experiences with ties I have learned a lot from your input.

Over the years I have been my main supplier of logs for ties and as the years are catching up with me ,not sure how long this old guy is going to stay in the woods logging .  It sure sounds from the comments it may not be easy to have a log supply for ties it you don't supply it yourself . 

Merry Christmas

Bill

[Ron Wenrich]

Bill

That's 17 bf of lumber and a pallet cant. 

[Ohio_Bill]

Ron, Yep that is what you said. Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding .

I sawed a lot more than you do on a band mill.  Usually we saw at least 1 load a week, if we're in those types of species.  We saw a lot of different lengths, so not all logs are suited for ties.  Any log that is 8' and tie species is cut to tie length.  It does give waste to your other blocking and boards, but the extra can be helpful in board trimming, or used to make a better grade board.

One thing I look at is the alternate return that you get from sawing a tie into lumber.  I saw all my stock down to blocking, usually a 3½x6.  A tie price would be about $22 FOB mill.  Blocking is $420/Mbf delivered.  Its easy to lose $10/Mbf in delivery costs.  That pallet cant will fetch $5.88.  That leaves $16.12 to get to breakeven in the remaining lumber.

Due to the over thickness and saw kerf, you'll end up only getting about 17 bf from the lumber.  That ends up being about an average of $950/Mbf lumber from those boards.  In today's markets, its pretty hard to average that in a tie quality log.  One board that is 2 Com will make your decision to pull boards from a tie a costly one. 

The other factor to consider is that your sawing costs go down when sawing ties.  You get better volume in a less amount of time, and that reduces costs.  The lower sawing costs should also be considered when looking at the alternate return.

You can talk about all those high prices in niche markets.  The problem is the market isn't big enough to handle all the logs into niche material.  If you did, the laws of supply and demand bites you, and prices would drop as the market dries up.  Reality is that you need other types of markets if you plan to do any type of volume. 

[Kansas]

I just don't see a bandmill doing great cutting ties. Possibly if you had a near perfect supply of the right size of logs. But that is hard to do. You really are better off to find markets you dictate the terms, not someone like a tie buyer. Not saying that sometimes you don't have to do stuff to keep the wolf from the door. But it is easy to become complacent that  what someone offers you is the best you are going to do.

This morning we had a long time customer that does stuff for the railroad. He is as cheap as we go for oak. .85 cents. its 4x4's cut to length around 26 inches  long. Then they go back on the mill to be split into wedges. We get a dollar a cut for the splitting. We aren't setting the world on fire. But we can go through all our cants and logs that have serious problems, and simply cut out all the good stuff. To my way of thinking, those are the kinds of things that a bandmill can add value to. He ordered 200 of them. That comes up to around 590 dollars. Plus if we run out of cants, the side pieces just go into pallet lumber on the logs. We never use high grade.

People get into mindsets when they do the same thing all the time. Like last winter when I needed pallet lumber, cottonwood, simply cut 1 1/2 thick by random width. The catch was, they had to be 12 foot long. He got angry with me on the phone, and said we never cut longer that 8 foot, and we only cut 3 1/2 and 5 1/2 wide lumber or cants. I was offering better money, for something that circle mill of his could have blew through. Found out on Wenesedy, he is supposedly having an auction, and plans on moving to a different location. The guy I talked to thought it was just that the bank was closing in. He doesn't think there is a different location. He has been in business for a long time. But he is so set in his ways. He can't, as they say, think outside the box.

[drobertson]

bill, if I may call you bill, I have been cutting since 05' and have learned plenty. the fact is  unless one has a crew at the mill and a crew in the timber suppling the mill, it is a tough roe to hoe.  I have avg'd .2/ft buying logs, and cut custom from .2-.3/ft here now. This is close to what most big mills make as far as I know. I here that .25/ft is about normal. This is the clear profit, not counting slabs or dust. this is  petty cash.  The biggest problem I have ever encountered is logs that are not bobbed off if there is butt rot or hollow defects.  This automatically makes 4X6 cants that go for .3/ft,  so every log has to be scaled and graded. A common practice around here is by the weight, and this kills us smaller guys, logging is logging, very hard work, whether the logs are premium or junk. the mills that can chunk out the cants can absorb the loss, where I cannot.  This is why I preffer to cut custom whenever possible. A straight run with no up front cost.

[Ohio_Bill]

Kansas, IMO you are absolutely correct about a band mill not being great for cutting ties. So if a LT40SH is not great I should get some kind of award for cutting over 2000 ties on a LT15 with a 13 hp motor.  Up to this time in my life sawmilling has been a part time venture 20 or 30 hrs per week. My timber stand had been high graded several times over the last 100 years and was in need of a timber improvement cut to get rid of low grade and undesirable species. So that improvement cut has been the supply of the tie logs. After I got done with my 140 acres the neighbor asks me to do theirs. You may be right and I need to think outside the box and not do the same thing over and over again. I put a kiln in thinking of selling the grade that came off the side lumber. May have dried 15000 ft total over the last 8 years   and dealing with the retail customers has not been one of my most enjoyable past times . There are several large mills within 40 miles of me that do over 100000 ft a day and I have the Amish in my back yard that will custom cut for 170 per 1000. The Amish are not portable and I do get some portable work. That might be a good path to pursue. Up to this point ties have worked well because of the supply of logs and being able to set my own schedule.

Drobertson , I have heard of mills buying by weight but around here they scale and grade every log. The mill I sell too have over 2 million bf on there lot and the buyer has had a personal relationship with each log.  I would say Amen to your statement about one crew in the woods and one in the mill. I have done both jobs myself and it is tough sometimes.

Thanks everyone.
Bill

:christmas:

[Okrafarmer]

I think it is good for any sized operation to be diversified and flexible, but especially for a small operation like mine. Ties and pallet lumber are good to be able to do if things are slow, or to use on those few logs that are good for them. Life would be so much simpler if they allowed an 8' tie, instead of 8'8 or whatever it is. Even 9' even would be an improvement. It is so much easier to ask for a 9' log with trim, than to say, I need to have an 8'8 log plus trim. Well what does that mean? I guess that ends up being about 9' even, so you can trim it to 8'8.

As I scanned down through the requirements for tie specs, I kept saying to myself, man, each one of these requirements would eliminate a lot of logs as possibilities. I really don't want to get into the situation where I am buying logs specifically for ties, because then I can't concentrate on buying logs for the more lucrative part of my business. If cutting ties and pallet lumber were the only viable thing available for me, I might have to reconsider whether it were worth staying in business. If I determined that it was, then I could be flexible enough to switch over and start doing them.

Meanwhile, if I try to work them into my current routine on the rare occasions where I have a log that is both suitable for it, and the core is not suitable for anything else, then my first ties might rot before I finished a truck load of them.  :-\

[1woodguy]

Very  very informative topic a real keeper