32 HP(maybe)

DanG · December 16, 2003, 03:34:36 PM

I don't think he's really looking for horsepower, but more torque. He doesn't want to spin the thing faster, just have it not bog down under a load.
It probably would work, to a certain degree, but synchronization may be a bit of a problem, what with having 2 carbs and 2 governors. Twin outboard motors work great on a boat, but there is no hard connection between them, such as a belt or gear would give you. There is a certain "slip factor" present there, anyway.
I think I'd try it if I already had the second motor, but I probably wouldn't spend the money just to find out.

Come to think of it, ya reckon ya could control both carbs from just one of the governors? That might make it more feasable by preventing them from surging against each other. :

:P

EZ · December 16, 2003, 03:36:11 PM

A 6 pak, do you mean that we are going to put 6 carbs on the two motors. ;D
EZ

woodhaven · December 16, 2003, 03:41:55 PM

EZ,
You are exactly right. This would solve your particular problem.

Getting the 2 rascals holding the same rpm would probably be a pain in the butt.

BBTom · December 17, 2003, 04:33:10 AM

I think that it would work just fine. No doubt that the two engines would not run at exactly the same speed, but if you include overrunning clutches on each, then the one that is spinning faster will pull the blade in a no load situation. but as soon as you sink it into a log, that engine will drop speed till the other picks up the slack.

woodmills1 · December 17, 2003, 04:51:14 AM

In customary units power is measured in foot pounds per second with the unit most used the horsepower being 550 foot pounds per second. They both measure the same physical quantity just in different amounts. In metrics power is in newton meters per second with a newton meter being called a joule so also may use joules per second. But again a joule per second is called a watt, so watts measure power. Again wats measure the same physical quantity. A kilowatt is 1000 watts. One horsepower is the equivalent to 746 watts.

Now if we are talking about the efficient use of power, or for that matter the efficient use of increased power that is a different animal. Every hookup, device, bearing, clutch, coupler, or what ever introduces friction and losses, some more than others. And yes more short peaveys with more people would make the job easier.

I had a boat once and it just wouldn't move. I put another motor on it and it still wouldn't move. I guess I should have taken it off the blocks in the front yard and put it in the water! :D :D :D :D

woodmills1 · December 17, 2003, 04:57:13 AM

by the way the leggo fanatics are into this two motor stuff. I did a google search on power from two motors and many sites were about leggos!
http://mapageweb.umontreal.ca/cousined/lego/3-Physics/Motors/combine.html

http://www.lmsm.info/back-issues/0702/tipsntricks.html

Neil_B · December 17, 2003, 06:10:11 AM

I want to try this the way woodhaven explained it. I think he means right but may be mixed a bit. :-/

You have one big log ( say it's a blade)
One 3 foot cant hook ( pulleys and belt)
2 guys ( 2 motors).
Bed of the mill (friction)

One guy can not turn the log very fast or far by himself because it is catching something on the bed, so the other guy grabs onto the same cant hook with him and they are both able to turn the log quicker and easier overcoming the friction.

Now in sawmill terms

You have a blade ( it's actually still a blade) ;)
Pulleys and belts
2 motors
Friction from sawing a large log

You start sawing into the log with one motor but it starts bogging down due to friction, start the other motor that is hooked up to the same belts and pulleys as the first one and it will start pulling the first motor out of the range of bogging.

Conclusion, as everyone mentioned, it would be difficult to get both motors working as one just like one guy could be doing more of the work than the other guy because he may be stronger or have more energy. Not sure if that would actually double the hp or not but it would certainly increase it. Maybe 1 1/2 times or something. ???

Does that sound right?

raycon · December 17, 2003, 07:19:13 AM

If I had a dozen helpers rolling one log with cant hooks I'd have a lot of helpers - That log would roll real easy as well.
12 cant hooks 3ft long = 1 cant hook 36 ft long
Give me a lever long enough and I'll move the earth -- or something like that
As long as at least one motors drive had the capacity to slip I think you'd be ok. Primay and a slave. Chainsaws have this setup and its a chain drive -- they don't have one throttle but two right?

Bro. Noble · December 17, 2003, 11:13:39 AM

Heck,

If I had just one of them horses that runs 60 mph, I wager I'd have one of them new orange mills with the yellar engine on it before long 8)

EZ · December 17, 2003, 03:36:18 PM

If I can figure out the same rpm thing, this is how I was going to hook it up, I think.
The pulley on the engine is lined up with the bandmill pulley. It's engage with a idler pulley, some what like a riding mower. The pulley on the motor is 5 1/4 inch. I was going to mount the second motor right beside the other. I was going to put another 5 1/4 pulley on the original motor and another 5 1/4 pulley on the other motor. And have a idler pulley to engage the second motor when needed. My question is, will this be right.
I know what I mean, I just hope this makes sense to guys and gals.
EZ

Tom · December 17, 2003, 03:47:17 PM

EZ,
I'm not sure if it would work this way but how about a centrifugal clutch on the second engine? It would make it easy to start and if the first engine "over-ran" it perhaps the clutch would release.

Anybody know if it would work like that?

Percy · December 17, 2003, 06:28:21 PM

When I was a kid, the big guy in the neighbourhood raced gokarts and he had two chainsaw motors running the same shaft. The thing went like a scalded cat. When it was under load (Wide open) it sang but when idling or half throttle crusing it did surge. Im thinkin as long as you are workin it, it should be fine. So what if one is workin abit harder than the other. Its like a team of horses, theres always a lazy one ;D and all this "one guy on a cant hook" stuff is givin me a sore back :D :D

Stump Jumper · December 17, 2003, 07:00:26 PM

wouldnt nitrus be easyer ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D 8)

duke401 · December 17, 2003, 09:11:06 PM

maybe propane injection, this would work, not two motors but 1.33
duke

D._Frederick · December 19, 2003, 11:40:46 AM

EZ,
Your pulley system from one engine to the other engine will work if both engines are the same size and model. There may be surging when they are not under load and they try to tear your belts apart. Is there any way you could run linkage between the carbruator butterfly valves of the engines so one govenor would control both engines? Surplus Center has a governor listed for $29, it may be possible to install another governor and controll both engines with it.I think that you are going to have more costs and headaches than you would have if you just bought one larger engine

Fla._Deadheader · December 19, 2003, 01:36:13 PM

Guys, GUYS, Do I hafta straighten y'all out , AGAIN ??? :

:

SELL the first engine and BUY a BIGGER one :

:

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D ;) ;)

EZ · December 19, 2003, 07:26:11 PM

As I said in the beginning, I'd like to have something different for people to remember me by. Like Arkansawyer, the name is different and catches the eye.
BTW, like I said earlier my 16 hp produces 3600 rpm and I have a new 11 hp still in the box that also produces 3600 rpm. Even tho the hp is different the rpm is the same, so I wonder if I could use these two together.
EZ

Wes · December 19, 2003, 07:43:23 PM

WOW I just read this thread for the first time and now my head hurts. ??? It sounds like a fun project, Id go for it.

chet · December 19, 2003, 07:50:52 PM

Two engines will probably mean twice the number of engine problems. I agree with Dead_Header, sell um both and get one bigger. There are better ways to get a customer to remember you without resorting to gimmicks.

DanG · December 19, 2003, 08:24:51 PM

Being the disagreeable old cuss that I am, I'm gonna (what else?) disagree. ;D
Since you've already got the second engine, and you can spare the time to fiddle with it for a while, why not try it? There is plenty of precedent for the idea. There have been cars that only use 4 cylinders until they need 8. There are airplanes, and even spacecraft that have auxiliary engines to fire up when they need extra power.

Don't let someone talk you out of trying something new, 'specially if they haven't proven it won't work. Now, this ain't knocking Harold or Chet, 'cause you DID ask for opinions, and they gave you theirs. I guarantee if you do it, and it works, they'll be the first to congratulate you.

Besides all that, if it don't work, you can still sell the 2 engines and buy a bigger one. ;D

BTW, thanks for bringing this up in the first place. It has been an interesting discussion, and it got a lot of folks to thinking. 8)

woodhaven · December 20, 2003, 10:09:13 AM

At the moment all thats really important is.

Santa Claus is coming!!!!!!!!

VA-Sawyer · December 20, 2003, 08:33:03 PM

( Caution: This is pretty longwinded )

EZ
   This really won't be too hard to do. Yes, you will get more HP to the blade. Yes, you will burn more gas and have more maintenance. No, the engines don't have to be synced up exactly. If you run a second belt from the new engine to the origional engine and put an idler type clutch on it, then it will be fine. You may have to put a heavier belt and set of pulleys between the first engine and the saw to carry the higher total HP.
   You will have to run a linkage from the first throttle butterfly valve to the carb on the second engine. Set the governor on the second engine to about 50 rpm higher than the max governor speed on the first engine. Modify the second engine governor linkage so it isn't pulling the butterfly open, but only able to shove it closed. (This is to prevent the second engine from overspeeding to destruction if the drive belt breaks) We will use the governor on the first engine to control both engines for sawing.
   To saw with only the first engine:
   1. Slacken up the belt on the second engine by moving the idler clutch to disengaded position.
   2. Start first engine and begin normal sawing.

   To saw with both engines:
   1. Slacken up the belt on the second engine. Same as step one above.
   2. Start both engines at idle.
   3. Engage clutch to tighten belt on second engine.
   4. Start sawing

Why does this work ? Both engines will always be turning at the same RPM when the clutch is engaged on the second engine. (Assuming same size pulleys on both engines ) At any time, one engine may be producing more power (torque) than the other, but they are turning at the same RPM. Having two tachs will tell you nothing useful. Even if you kill the fuel to one of the engines, they will be turning at the same speed. It may not cut very well that way, but BOTH ENGINES WILL BE TURNING AT THE SAME SPEED. ( Even if that speed is zero !!! )
As you increase the load on the engine by moving the blade into the wood, the engine wants to lose RPM. The governor sees the drop in RPM and opens the throttle more to try to get the engine to speed back up to the setpoint RPM ( desired governor speed ) . The governor doesn't care if it is hooked to one throttle valve or a lot of throttle valves. All the governor cares about is the difference between current RPM and setpoint RPM.

The real question you need to ask is, will the structure of the saw handle the extra weight and torque ?

Rick
VA-Sawyer

EZ · December 21, 2003, 03:54:50 AM

Rick, thanks for the reply.
Makes alot of sense about the tack thing, now that you said that.
The carrage is made out of 4 inch tubing, 1/4 thick wall. the sawhead frame is a 6 x 8 tubing. I fill that it is strong enough to mount a 350 chevy up there if I wanted to. Last summer I forgot to put the stopper at the end of the rail and the carrage fell off the end. The only thing it hurt was my feelings.
Thanks again.
EZ

Stump Jumper · December 21, 2003, 06:05:22 PM

I vote for the 350 chevy

8) 8) 8) ;D ;D ;D :D

EZ · January 22, 2004, 04:34:48 PM

This evening I place the 11 hp beside the 16 hp, mark the holes to bolt the motor down. Took the motor back off and drilled the holes. 8) My wife came out to supervize and I place the motor back on and started to bolt it down. I had 2 bolts in and she said, are you going to be able to change that spark plug on the 16 hp. ??? I look at it and I'll be DanG if I couldnt get to it. One thing I dont want to do is pull the motor to change a plug. Back to the drawing board.
EZ