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Purchasing black cherry

Started by Osric, November 26, 2007, 02:00:23 PM

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SwampDonkey

Which guide Sparty? I use Peterson's, Textbook of Dendrology and Native Trees of Canada. Choke cherries here have no scales on the bark except what we call lenticels. The bark is real dark, almost black with a gray cast. They have cherries here when they are barely any taller than a raspberry cane. The stem usually has so many branches or so crooked you'd never consider it for much more than a walking stick. The size limits I see it up to 8" and 30 feet in Peterson's. That's not maturity, that's end of life. ;)

They are the most hardy cherry on the continent and about the only shrub a hare doesn't chew the bark off of.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

rebocardo

> I don't know how to ask ahead of time if they really are intending on selling me the logs

Depends on how much you want them. Myself, my estimates are usually free if I can work it into my travel. Otherwise I charge them $25 for any estimate and if it is a ways away, I tell them what I would probably charge, that I am showing up with my equipment, and I expect to start working once I get there.

SwampDonkey

Kelvin, Furb and Sparty, I'm just trying to fish more info out of ya about the choke cherries.


Back to black cherry. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Sparty

Swampdonkey-
I am using  Audubon's guide  to eastern north american trees.  The bark description there reads: Brown or gray smooth or becoming scaly.  That matches my limited experiance with them.  They look like they have a smooth background with small/medium scales.  Most of the ones I have seen were in fence rows not in bushy groups.  We even had one big enough to put a ladder stand in and hunt from.  Most of the area were I live is not condusive to the type of choke cherry shrubs that you have.  The landscape is squares of farmland checkered with 40-60 year old woodlots.  Not alot of scrubland for the choke cherries.

Furby

I know what Black Cherry looks like, we have it all over around here and I see it every day.
The log I was talking about may not have been a Choke Cherry, and I never saw any leaves from it.
I'm 99.9% sure that log was NOT Black Cherry.

Interesting, a search on Cherry Birch brings up Betula lenta L. AKA Sweet Birch and shows the native range not covering MI.
But a search on Black Birch brings up Sweet Birch (Betula lenta) and shows it in Southern MI. smiley_headscratch

I have some up at the lake that I've never been sure about. Always thought they were Black Cherry until some posts on here a couple years ago on Black Birch. They sure seem to fit Black Birch better.
SD, would you be able to tell the difference between Black Birch and Black Cherry if I could get an end grain scan?


WDH

Furby, if you smash or scrap the bark off of a sweet birch twig, you will be rewarded with an overwhelming wintergreen  smell.  Like smelling an open can of Skoal :).  If you get close enough to the trees to do an end-grain scan, try the smell test.  The bark of these two is distinctly different as well. 

Also, the leaves on sweet birch come off the twig in twin pairs from the same node.  Not so in black cherry where each node has a single leaf.

Leaf pic of sweet birch.  In the "Summer Foliage" section of the site, click on the thumnail of the leaves on the far right to see the paired leaves.

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/Plants/b/betlen/betlen1.html
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Furby

Well I have a couple of small logs from one of the trees up at the lake, laying next to the mill right now.
They've been there about a year and a half, so I figure the smell is gone.
I don't remember smelling it while cutting them though.

In order for one to compare a smell to an open can of Skoal, one would need to know what an open can of Skoal smells like eh? ;)

WDH

Point well taken.  Take my word on it and save yourself $5.00 ;D.

Yep, the smell will most surely be gone.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Furby

I don't have $5, so I won't bother. ;)
Was just looking at your link and also looked at the Black Cherry at that link.
I simply can't say from memory as I'm thinking we might have both up there.
I know the pics they show of both trees have a wide range of bark types/looks.

Guess I'll have to wait until next summer and get some branches.

SwampDonkey

Yup, but it might be easier for you to do it on your end. Just use a utility knife to get a smooth surface on the end grain and wet it.

The birch has larger pores than the largest wood rays and the wood rays you won't see without a lens. The pores are tiny white dots between the wood rays. There are similar sized pores as the rays but you won't see them with the naked eye too well. Sometimes the growth rings are hardly visible without a lens. I have a shot of the yellow birch end grain in the end grain thread. It's going to be the same as the black birch, besides color of wood. Wood Tech says the birches cannot be separated by anatomy.

In the cherry you don't need a hand lens to see the wood rays. In black cherry the heart is pinkish, not gonna be in the birch, well I'm lying  :D sometimes we get pink heart in yellow birch, not sure if you get it in black birch, so we better ignore that tip. The wood rays are going to be the slam dunk. ;D

Yeah I know you know was black cherry is. ;D

Your black birch/cherry birch is in Michigan if it's in southern Ontario, which it is but rare. In school we were told black birch was the common name we were to use (or be docked points  ::) ) for proper common name, but native trees of Canada call it cherry birch. I had that argument once in Va with my friend. :D :D It's the same with the Manitoba maple/boxelder when I'm looking at one in the same here in the yard and along the river valley and being told we don't have it here.  In that case it's invasive and only native to the Prairies as i recall. Same with burr oak, not listed here, but I can go to the woods and put my bare hands on wild burr oak trees.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 07, 2007, 09:24:09 PM
In that case it's invasive and only native to the Prairies as i recall. Same with burr oak, not listed here, but I can go to the woods and put my bare hands on wild burr oak trees.  ::)

Yep, just because it ain't native.................Well, Yankees Northerners ain't native to these parts, but I can put my bare hands on them as well.  They might not kindly cotton to that , though :D.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

What did you find out Furb? ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

I see at the Forestry Canada Seed Bank here in Fredericton, they have some cherry birch in storage which was collected in St Catherines (Port Dalhousie), Ontario in 1999.

lat: 43.10 long: 79.10
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Furby

Had a funeral to attend today, so I didn't get a log dug out of the snow.
I'll get back to you with a scan as I'm not sure I'd be able to see what you were describing. :)

SwampDonkey

Be sure and use the highest resolution (1200 DPI or more?) of the scanner and in preview, use the size gadgets to select an area covering an inch (or slightly bigger) square. That will blow it up big (zoom).

The picture I have of the cherry end grain isn't that great, too rough. But, you can see the rays. When I say the pores (white dots) on the birch are between the rays. Well take my word for it, you wont see the rays without magnification. But anyway, rays and pores don't over lap, I mean a ray doesn't cut a pore in half. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Furby

Ok, things didn't go as planned. ::)
I had some trouble trying to shave it down smooth due too the chainsaw marks and you can sorta see some of the shave marks as it isn't totally flat.
I ended up breaking it smaller then planned while trying to shave it. :-\
Too make matters worse, the scanner only goes up to 600 dpi. ::)

So if you can't tell anything from this pic, then I'll have to cut off a bigger piece and run it past the table saw before shaving it.
Then I'll have to dig out the better scanner and hook it up.


WDH

Furby, what you have there is an oak.  Definitely not cherry or birch.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Furby

Oh really ???
Guess I gotta stop looking at bark and leaves and even wood color. ;)

Honestly, I thought the same thing while shaving it, but I give you my word that that is not an oak.

SwampDonkey

That's cherry. I think WDH might be seeing big open pores for some reason. I think the piece is suffering a bit from being frozen and frosty and not being shaved real smooth. Beleive me it's hard to get a smooth shaving of cherry or any hardwood.  ;D  But, I see 6 semi-distinct rings and very distinct rays (those vertical white lines). No way to mistake that for birch.  If you had a hand lens you would see pores, but you would have to have real good eyesight to see them otherwise. Ya did real good Furby. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

WDH

Furby, you and SD are right.  FedEx me some of that cherry, and be sure to add some crow :).  I will cook the crow with some grits.  After it is all cooked, I am sure y'all would throw out the grits and just eat the crow ;D.

I mistook the saw marks as growth rings.  Instead of many rings in the pic, I now see that there are only about 5.  I also can see the single row of large pores at the beginning of the growth ring.  Where is the crow eating smiley ???.



Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

WDH is right the pores are a bit larger at the beginning of the growth ring, but I haven't good enough eye sight to see them. I'm pretty sure the largest pores are narrower than the largest ray. The wood can be semi diffuse like butternut as well, not always. The pores kind of cluster a bit as you move into the late wood. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Furby, you understand why it ain't birch or errm oak? ;)  If you run your tongue across a fresh cut surface you should taste a hint of bitter almond. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Gary_C

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 12, 2007, 07:30:36 AM
If you run your tongue across a fresh cut surface you should taste a hint of bitter almond.

Ya and if it was  aspen you wouldn't have slivers in your tongue after you did that.  :D
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Furby

I'm pretty much seeing what you described, but being able to tell it apart from birch will have to wait until I can see both side by side. :)
I really need to take a closer look at the bark and leaves/branches next summer and compare them to some other trees up there as well as at home.
After all, most of my ID work is on standing trees and cutting one down just to ID it isn't a really good practice to get into I don't think!  :D

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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