On another recent thead, I was talking about bucking and splitting frozen logs for firewood. Most of the logs are spruce, so normally fairly soft and easily cut, split, or worked. But someone asked me if they would approach "hardwood" hardness when they're frozen solid (yes, sub zero temps for a month or two will freeze even a 24" d log solid). Well, I don't have the answer, so I was wondering if anyone else did?
I know that my poor Husky doesn't chew through the frozen stuff in the winter with the gusto it does during the summer, but I don't know if that's due to the wood being harder or just because the chain is freezing up (literally freezing the chain & oil on the bar - we use 5w motor oil since regular chain oil is useless for us in the winter).
What do ya'll think?
I believe the problem with frozen wood is due to the difficulty in clearing chips due to refreezing rather than hardness. I cut with a harvester a lot in the winter and with a .404 chain pitch, it seems to cut the same in frozen wood as any other time. But that is with a lot of chip clearing space and high chain speeds.
I also can say that chain lubrication is not very effective in very cold weather and snow. I have seen that in corn heads that have to run in the snow where the grease is washed out of all spaces because of the abrasiveness of the snow. Same thing is true for loader pins when working in snow. It is hard to grease things in the cold and the snow will wash all the grease right out.
Will Vegetable oil freeze in that cold? I use it for bar and chain lube in my saws..and no i don't want to debate which is better..and no amsoil doen't make veggie oil. :D
you could maybe thin that 5w with say a tenth part kerosene and wake it up some..
Frozen wood regardless of species can be *very*hard. Kinda depends on moisture %, but I've cut a lot of frozen logs in the sawmill over the years, and can definitely say it gets hard as a rock. It should still cut fine with a chainsaw though, softwood will cut way slower, as you have seen. For frozen cutting, you want full chisel chain, and want to keep it very sharp. There is winter weight bar oil available, I personally think motor oil is not really what you want.
Would a skip chain help with chip clearance?
Stonebroke
Your motor oil is probably slowing you down more than its helping. If you can't get winter chain oil try using ATF(automatic transmission fluid). You can mix the ATF with your motor oil to get the viscosity you want.
Keep sharp and keep your rpms up - all season advice ::)
Up north the trees grow WAYYYY slow. The growing season is much shorter. The density of the wood is greater than the same species growing in the south. In the winter spruce that is frozen is as hard as a rock. Think about putting a cup of tree sap in your deep freeze. We have temps lower than that.
A month of -40 to -50 will freeze even the softest of wood hard as granite.
I use canola oil all year round. I use it down to -30. After that I sit in the cabin by the stove.
I've used a lot of oils over the years. Even 5w oil thickens up to sludge at -10.
I used to keep a small fire going while cutting. I would keep the jug beside the fire to help keep it thinned.
A skip chain definatly works better on frozen wood. Sharpen often and it should work fine.
okay, chisel ground, skip tooth chain. The trick is to file it more straight across than at an angle. Use a flat file so that you have a square corner. Bailey's sells them. A lot of saw shops don't even know what they are. As far as oil goes we had good luck using oil that was drained out of diesel engines. The reason is that it was thinner and the diesel helped cut the pitch in the wood. If the oil is still too thick add a little more diesel, not gas as it is explosive. Another thing you can do is use a worn out bar that has loose grooves. When we were running 6' bars we used to buy .063 gauge bars and run like .053 chain.
Looks like we're going to have to change chains in the winter then! And one of the locals told us to use 5w... geez, he must've been teasing the newbies ;D I'll have to check at Rod's Saw Shop for the winter weight chain oil, or use veggie or ATF. Using Canola might work, I think I have one of those monster 5 gal cans they sell at Costco out in the shed... if it isn't frozen by now, it's probably our best option.
Now all we have to do is figure out an easier way to split those big rounds. The smaller stuff splits easy, even/especially when frozen; but the first split on those big-uns' is murder... we tried a star-wedge and an 8-lb maul, a 12 lb splitting maul with a straight edge and wide body, and the axe. Poor log was beat to heck before it finally split... after 10 minutes playing whack-a-mole with it. Man, we so need a log-splitter LOL
plickety cat,
Those big "rounds" will come apart easier if you start at the edge and split off pieces parallel to the bark until you can manage splitting the entire thing. You break off a piece to open up the log and then work around it, making the round smaller as you go.
Quote from: fuzzybear on December 18, 2009, 02:08:46 PM
Up north the trees grow WAYYYY slow. The growing season is much shorter. The density of the wood is greater than the same species growing in the south.
Which reminds me... I've been using the standard Spruce-Pine-Fir tables for span and load calcs, but our local forester at the co-op extension said that our trees (up north) were much harder and you could build with a lot less dimension than those tables call for (even with our snow loads). Have you found that to be the case? If we can use smaller timbers, then the house would weigh less and therefore would need to support less weight (funny how that works - law of diminishing returns I guess). Do you know which tables I should/could be using instead? It's hard to find anything that addresses all the differences found above 55° North!
Quote from: Tom on December 18, 2009, 05:32:29 PM
plickety cat,
Those big "rounds" will come apart easier if you start at the edge and split off pieces parallel to the bark until you can manage splitting the entire thing. You break off a piece to open up the log and then work around it, making the round smaller as you go.
<<smacking forehead>> Doh - that was so obvious, I missed it - I am such an idiot ;D
Nah! you're no idiot. It just looks easier from down here. :D
Quote from: Tom on December 18, 2009, 05:57:42 PM
Nah! you're no idiot. It just looks easier from down here. :D
I must have been suffering from the "confusion and lack of concentration" that happens with hypothermia. That's my story and I'm sticking to it :D
I use TDH fluid that I drained out of the skidder, mixed with a little bar oil for tack. If you don't have a skidder this could be a problem. I used to use regular winter bar oil and cut it with kerosene to get to a flowing consistency. I don't run the skidder if it is below -35 but I will cut firewood in any temperature. Dry spruce isn't too much different when frozen but green is really hard. I use full chisel all of the time. It will dull faster than semi-chisel in green wood but not much different with dry. I have tried skip in winter but I didn't find a great deal of difference. Splitters are great if it's not too cold. Mine doesn't work so well at -30 or 35. I like to save the biggest rounds of dry spruce to split with the maul and sledge when it is around 40 below, they just pop apart at that temperature. Are you between Glennallen and Palmer?
Maybe we just didn't wait until it was cold enough then -- it was only 23 below yesterday LOL
We're between Fairbanks and the Tanana River, on the Elliott Hwy, in between Manley Hot Springs and Minto (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Fairbanks,+AK&daddr=Manley+Hot+Springs,+AK&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=31.095668,86.220703&ie=UTF8&ll=65.203772,-149.60907&spn=0.513752,2.694397&z=9). Or, as one person put it, about 4 feet from the middle of nowhere ;)
At least your not far from the Airport. ;D
Quote from: Mooseherder on December 18, 2009, 07:11:50 PM
At least your not far from the Airport. ;D
Yes, the airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manley_Hot_Springs_Airport) makes Manley almost a bustling metropolis... NOT!!
But at least we get mail fairly regularly, can fly into F'banks on the mail plane, can charter an air service and can get air freight (if it's small enough). Of course, the biggest thing is that MedEvac can land there, but where we're at, it's easier for those guys to pick us up at our neighbor's private strip ;)
Quote from: PlicketyCat on December 18, 2009, 06:56:26 PM
We're between Fairbanks and the Tanana River, on the Elliott Hwy, in Or, as one person put it, about 4 feet from the middle of nowhere ;)
I used to live just the other side of knowwhere...
Just wait till -40 then them big rounds split like an apple.
As far as using the logs for building, I build wall tent frames out of small trees. Of course a 4" diameter tree 12' tall is 125 years old. I build a timber frame type of frame. Biggest one I built was 16x24. The tarps will rot off of it before the frame will break.
The first one I built was 5 years ago it is still standing. The roof joists are 3" poles spaced 3' on center with a 4" ridge pole. I have had 4' of snow on the roof and it never budged.
If you want building logs I would stay away from "river" groves and look in the valleys and crevices for them. The reason being is those trees have extremley short growing season. Some of them you have to use a pin and magnifying glass to count the rings, they are that tight.
Also I would look into any burn fields around your area. The intensity of fires more or less "kiln dries" the trees. After 2 years you have trees that the bark is falling off and they are not going to twist or shrink any more than they are.
I always enjoy going "tree hunting". We have so many options here in the north. As long as it's spruce, poplar, or birch. ;D :D
Thanks FuzzyBear - I figured you could get away with less ;) One of our neighbors has 12" peeled pole ridgebeam and two 6" purlins, 9" center post, and 6" rafters, on his 48' x 24' cabin and that sucker has been up without a creak or a sag for 10 years and is often vacant in the winter so you know it had some snow load!
We'll stay away from the creeks and river groves. Our land is a "fire field" from '69, and there are still some big deadites standing around. We've been using the small ones for firewood, but I was hoping to use the big ones in the house... sounds like they are just the thing for the high stress members. Any issues/pointers if you end up having to build with dry and green together?
I shoulda mentioned -
ya might want to cut your firewood bolts a little shorter; 18" bolts are twice as hard to split as 16" bolts, and 14" ers are far easier yet. A bit more work with the saw can save a lot of work with the axe.
Good tip Sprucegum... we've just been bucking everything into 20" stovelengths since our firebox is 24". Maybe we need to adjust our thinking... better to have to get up and refill the box more often than to kill yourself trying to split big frozen wood LOL
Or maybe cut it at 12 inches and double up
Stonebroke
aw man, you guys just want me to have to redesign and rebuild my firewood crib and bucking jigs. I see how you are ;D
But seriously, shorter would be much easier to split. Next year we won't run into this problem, as we will actually be here during the summer to get our firewood all ready to go for winter so we don't have to buck and split when frozen. We didn't get up here until August this year and didn't have enough time before the cold hit to get our wood situation settled. Can you imagine what Canadian customs would have done if we'd tried to drive a semi full of "personal use" firewood through on our way here.... LOL that would have been priceless! They almost blew a gasket with our ammo (just the ammo, we shipped the firearms) and firewood has almost as much transportation and quarantine restrictions.
Naw, We just don't want to see you freeze. It must be getting pretty cold up there and not much sunshine.
Stonebroke
Lay those big rounds on their side and split them halfway with a chainsaw. A couple accurate whacks with a good maul will bring her down then.