Ethanol in gasoline/ older saws

[petefrom bearswamp]

My 1970s vintage  Super xl12 Homelite  (now retired) sat at my Adirondack camp for about 20 years with ethanol gas in the tank.
Always started in 5 or 6 pulls with no issues. some of the gas in the can was there for 1 or 2  years as we didn't use the saw much.
I think the ethanol thing is a tempest in a teapot.
The saw is in my shop now and i'll check to see if there is any gas in it.
If there is I will try to start it and report back.
It was last run 3 or 4 yrs ago.

[Ox]

John Mc - this is how we can get pure gas from ethanol gas in an emergency.  Just pour off what's at the top and you're good to go.

If you are willing to take the 3 point drop in octane rating that results from removing the 10% ethanol.

I guess if I was desperate enough to mess around with all that, a little less octane and a little friendly engine destruction from pre-ignition from it wouldn't bother me much!  :D  I actually hadn't thought of the octane rating loss.  I really don't know any scenario this would need to be done, except end of the world stuff.  Last car, last rubber hose, etc.   :

[John Mc]

John Mc - this is how we can get pure gas from ethanol gas in an emergency.  Just pour off what's at the top and you're good to go.

If you are willing to take the 3 point drop in octane rating that results from removing the 10% ethanol.

I guess if I was desperate enough to mess around with all that, a little less octane and a little friendly engine destruction from pre-ignition from it wouldn't bother me much!  :D  I actually hadn't thought of the octane rating loss.  I really don't know any scenario this would need to be done, except end of the world stuff.  Last car, last rubber hose, etc.   :

I know folks who have actually done it. I guess it would be OK if you started with 93 octane, but most of the premium around here is 91.Taking that down to 88 or 89 by removing the ethanol, then allowing for the fact that gas tends to lose octane rating as it sits puts it a little lower than I'd want to mess with.  Personally, I'd just run the ethanol gas if that was all I had, and run the saw dry when I'm done. That's what I did for the one summer that E0 gas was unavailable around here.

[Chop Shop]

Why doesnt my car eat pistons, and rubber hoses, and carb parts, and fuel pumps, and injector grommets, and return hoses, and floats, and all the same stuff that is on the "poster of blame" on the saw shops wall?


Seems that ethanol gets more blame than anything else in the world!

Dull chain, "its from all the ethanol"!  Lol!

[Chop Shop]

Is ethanol biased/racist?   It seems to only like the taste of chainsaws.

Why doesnt it eat tractors and sawmills?

[John Mc]

Cars are not some much of an issue because typically the fuel is turned over more quickly in them.

I'm not sure what the mechanism is, but for some reason, small engines seem to have more of a problem, and two-cycle engines more so than 4 cycle.

One problem on non-auto-tune engines is that ethanol mixed gas is an oxygenated fuel, so if not readjusted, an engine will run a bit leaner than on straight gas. If a saw is set right on the edge of being too lean (which is generally how they are shipped from the factory), switching from "pure gas" to E10 can push it too lean.

Another problem is that ethanol is hygroscopic (absorbs moisture from the air). When E10 gas absorbs enough water, the water and ethanol combine and settle out (known as "phase separation"). The ethanol-water mix is corrosive. This is bad enough in any engine, but especially a problem in two-cycle engines, where the oil-gas mix circulates throughout the engine.

[petefrom bearswamp]

x2 chop shop.
If the h2o precipitates out how come my cans when they sit outside dont have  ice in the bottom? Maybe ethanol is an anti freeze? Hasnt happened yet.
Yes automotive fuel turns over very quickly, but loggers use a lot of 2 stroke gas so turnover should not be an issue.
btw John it is 2 stroke and 4 stroke not 2 cycle and 4 cycle.
Maybe a petroleum engineer will chime in on this.
I can only speak from personal anecdotal experience.

[John Mc]

If the h2o precipitates out how come my cans when they sit outside dont have  ice in the bottom? Maybe ethanol is an anti freeze? Hasnt happened yet.

Yes, ethanol is an antifreeze. Ethanol will combine preferentially with water (more so than gas). If enough water is added, the ethanol/water mix will precipitate out. If it hasn't happened to you then you just haven't gotten enough moisture in your gas. If you don;t believe that the water/ethanol precipitates out, try this: pour about an inch of water in the bottom of an empty 20 oz. coke bottle. Mark the level of the water on the side of the bottle with a permanent marker. Add E10 gas (gas with 10% ethanol) to within a couple inches of the top. Shake well and allow to settle. Note the level of the layer in the bottom of the bottle. This is the ethanol/water mix. It will be higher than the level you marked on the bottle due to the ethanol that was formerly in the gas.

Yes automotive fuel turns over very quickly, but loggers use a lot of 2 stroke gas so turnover should not be an issue.

And if you turn it over quickly, you will not have as much of an issue with E10 gas.

btw John it is 2 stroke and 4 stroke not 2 cycle and 4 cycle.

Sorry my choice of words did not meet with your approval. It was my impression that both are commonly used.

[LeeB]

2 stroke, 2 cycle. Same thing. Most all of the major brand oils say 2 cycle on the label.

[Bret4207]

Why doesnt my car eat pistons, and rubber hoses, and carb parts, and fuel pumps, and injector grommets, and return hoses, and floats, and all the same stuff that is on the "poster of blame" on the saw shops wall?


Seems that ethanol gets more blame than anything else in the world!

Dull chain, "its from all the ethanol"!  Lol!

Part of it is because you're talking a lot larger 4 stroke engine, hoses, pumps, filters, etc with generally larger clearances and an injection system on the newer ones. Nothing at all like a chainsaw engine. And I don't think too many people are running 2 stroke oil in their cars. I've had it ruin hoses on my old farm tractors and turn fuel lines to gummy worms on old trucks. All I can say is that in some areas it seems to happen more than in others.

[Czech_Made]

Just saying:

https://medium.com/@EnviroEm/the-worst-environmental-policy-in-u-s-history-fc866641c5bf#.u3ib2ctg5

[petefrom bearswamp]

Of course any study that enforces a particular persons views is gospel.

[Al_Smith]

Years ago before mandatory ethanol in gasoline it was not uncommon in colder climates to get fuel line freeze up .Moisture either was in the gas or formed there from condensation .One method to prevent this was adding a can of "dry gas" .Guess what it was,ethanol .Standard oil of Ohio ,Sohio sold Boron,high test with " Ice guard' during winter .That was in the 60's so it's been around a long long time.

Now comes more modern times and we basically have little choice but to deal with it  .You might run aviation gasoline or marine gas at a jacked up price you have to drive 90 miles to obtain .That's the choice but it does stir varied opinions and has a life almost equal to the ever lasting oil wars which takes  on a life of it's own .

I don't know ,maybe I'm lucky or it's just blind luck .For reasons unknown I don't have any problems with 50 year old chainsaws ,60 year old tractors or a 1962 CJ 5 Jeep using the stuff .Perhaps we just have better gasoline in Ohio .I know we have better corn to make ethanol which would be better served making whiskey or feeding cattle but that's another can of worms best not opened up .--Ah yes the ethanol wars another great  topic of debate to be explored --- 8) 8)

[LeeB]

Al, was that ethanol or methanol used back then? You can still buy treatments to remove water from your fuel at the parts store. Major component is ethanol.

[John Mc]

Fortunately, I only have to drive 5 miles to get ethanol-free premium auto gas, and it's about 1/2 mile from where I buy my groceries. If I had to drive 90 miles and pay through the nose for it, I'd just use the E10 gas most gas stations sell. Since there are known issues with E10 gas for small engine (most of which can be avoided with a little care and thought), I don't burn it when I have a choice.

[Chop Shop]

Look at how low the quality of tires has gotten now days.    Kill a large AG tire and listen to the tires guys opinion of a section repair.  Most of the new tires are of such a low quality rubber that they dont take a repair or retread very well.

Im thinking the low quality of rubber products has an equal blame as the ethanol.


As for gas sitting in a saw VS a car.  My car ALWAYS has fuel.   Whats the difference between gas sitting for a month or being filled everyday?  The rubber is still submerged in fuel its WHOLE life.   I never run my car out of fuel to park it for a week!

Is it somehow a more powerful rubber rotter if its a month older?  NOPE.


And dont think your saw has better clearances than a new automobile.   Ever measure the squish zone on the newer GM LS engines or a ford cobra?

The reason we get good (over 400HP) out of ALLOT of newer auto engines on crappy fuel is because they have tightened up things anywhere they can.

Old sloppy detroit iron had awesome gas back in the day.   Now we see big numbers coming out of very efficient engines running 87 octane garbage.

[Al_Smith]

Couple of points I might bring out .The "rubber" in most cases is Buna N .It's not rubber like used in a tire .

Buna N is almost impervious to pure gasoline or oil but any amount of alcohol weather ethanol or methanol will deteriorate it .Fact is Stihl as of a few years ago is using a different formulation on components which is more robust as are the auto manufacturers .New rebuild kits for even old chainsaw carbs also have a  different material

Now as far as automobiles cranking out more power,yes they are tighter .Fact it's measured now in microns but I doubt that has a thing to do with it .Being able to change ignition timing twenty times a second ,being able to vary fuel injectors electronically as far as amount and pulse width and variable valve times does have a lot to do with it .350 Chevys and 302 Fords might have been called the good old days but we have it better now I think .