OldJarheads Milling Thread...

[Dave Shepard]

I always leave my bands on. They might get some surface rust, but that is gone on the first pass through the log. If transporting with the band on, WM says to put about 500 psi tension to keep the band from bouncing off the wheels.

[Chuck White]

The only time that there is a band on my mill is: 1. If I'm sawing & 2. If I'm doing an alignment!

[OlJarhead]

 
The last big log on the mill.  This one was 16 feet long and 18" DIA small end.  I milled a couple more 2x12's out of it and the rest became 2x4's.  I milled them 3 at a time


Another shot of the last log (the little one was ignored due to time constraints and because we'd surpassed their cut list.

 
Site layout improved a little each day but they never quite got the idea to seperate the lengths though they started that way....made it harder on me to tally at the end of the day.

 
The sawdust had to be raked away a few times a day!  I was making more than I ever have!


 
My off-bearers were two 'eldars' of the tribe and they were also the fallers.  They out-worked everyone!  We had a great time!  I'd work with them anytime!



I learned a lot this trip thanks to all of you and a chance to really put it into practice.  I used the toe boards a lot when logs weren't where I wanted them and learned to lift the side I wanted to push on higher than the other to make gravity help me ;)  I could go on I'm sure but for the moment I'm in 'downtime' mode!   A little sore, lighter and happier

Gotta love getting paid to run a mill like this   It sounds like I will be busy this spring (we'll see).

Some things I realized:
1.  I need to do a better job of explaining what the cut list is for, or at least how to prepare the logs (cut to length, decked. etc).  It's one thing to explain it, write it down etc but another to show up on site and find they really didn't get it.  It's ok, I charge by the hour but I would have been much happier if I just milled away instead of having to shoft and move logs, buck limbs, shorten logs etc etc.
2.  Plan to make stickers and get a rough idea of how may you'll need!  I didn't really give it a lot of thought though I normally do but in this case it slipped my mind.  I ended up using the 1x flitches I milled on the first day (I stopped doing that afterwards thanks to MM and it clicking with me) and while I milled a lot I can't say it was enough.
3.  Make sure the off-bearers understand where to put the lumber!!  I had a hard time counting the lumber I'd produced at times which made it hard to know how many more of one size or another I needed.
4.  Slab deep, but not that deep!  Sometimes I wasted time slabbing.  I know better too!  but with big butts I found it hard to cut so much off one end.  I'd 'gun barrel' it but in the end if you can't use what's under the slab than you should slab deeper I'm thinking.
5.  Don't slab so deep you waste!  A couple times I miss-judged and slabbed heavier than I should.  I started checking both ends of the log on the long/big ones to see where I should end up.
6.  Fire can stress a log a lot but maybe not enough to matter once below the hardened outer shell.  I found that sometimes the slab would lift right off the log on the hottest side of the burn.  I'd mill under it and flip the log to see what would happen and it didn't move at all.  Hmmm....flipped it back and got a lot less movement.  Did my best to make something useful and only saw a a few boards that moved early.  I guess a had a couple good face bends and a crown or two that was obvious but otherwise it turned out nicely.
7.  The customer may not understand milling over for drying.  Their builder wanted dimensional, I explained shrinkage, the customer wanted it milled over but not too much....I milled 1 11/16ths instead of 1 5/8ths -- the builder was happy enough in the end but I felt I could have done better and even milled at 1 3/4 (leaving 1 5/8).

probably a lot more -- probably wrong a lot ;) but learned a bunch hopefully for the better!

[wesdor]

Great thread with lots of excellent observations.  Thanks for sharing your excitement with us. 

[Larch]

Very inspirational seeing you get your new mill and get right out in there into the game.  Thanks for sharing the journey so far.   

[Lonely Sawer]

Thanks Herb. Just a little something I threw together. Jarhead, that is a good whack of lumber there. Good job.

[WV Sawmiller]

   All looking good. As to the stickers if the customer is cutting 4/4 side lumber I generally generate enough stickers in the edging process to keep ahead by edging 1" at a time. The edge may peter out but still have 4-5 feet of square 1" on one end or in the middle. If it has enough length to make a sticker I throw it in a separate pile and cut to length as needed. A lot of times I throw a couple handfuls of my dry stickers on the truck so we have some thing to start the first row or two then we generate enough to continue.

    On the deep slabbing when I realize I have slabbed deeper than necessary and left a good board or two I throw the slab on the loader arms and mill out the board(s)when I finish the rest of the cant. Doesn't speed up my production but does increase my yield on customers lumber.

    I have the same issues with the stacking of different lengths making it hard to tally. I know many sawmillers tally as they cut but I don't especially when cutting random widths. It is easier to keep a running tally if you are cutting standard sizes. I tally at the end of the day. With framing lumber I may be able to count the pieces but thinner stuff I just measure. When the customer has mixed the sizes I get him to measure the width and height while I record his numbers and we measure and mutually agree on an average length and use those numbers compute the total cut. We get pretty close and neither of us gains or gets burned too bad. I had one customer who forgot and included part of the previous days cut in the final cut so he double paid. He realized it later and called me and I had the previous day's count so reduced and refunded his overpayment. I make sure to get a tally each day or before a stack of wood leaves the area, whichever comes first.

[Magicman]

Congrats on a job well done.   

Your next job will be completely different.   :D

[Larch]

Does anyone bring dry stickers to handle stickering for the full job?  If cutting stickers on site do you recommend to the client that they get dry stickers and restack as soon as possible to avoid staining?

[Peter Drouin]

I would put all the lumber to the side of the mill and keep all the sizes together.



  

 
And in the back if I run out of room. :D :D
Only at the end of the job I might double up some lumber, in the pic you can see where I put bigger lumber on some small wood.


  

 
The customer did the stacking



  

  

 

Sometimes I would put the lengths on the first board and let it stick out some.

[Magicman]

 

 
With over 7700 bf of lumber sawed on this job, it was loaded onto a trailer as I sawed.


 
And stickered under the shed.  In this instance, I sawed stickers from dry previously sawn lumber.  Different lengths are stickered separately.

It certainly does help when the customer is knowledgeable and separates the logs according to lengths.  I was able to saw all of the 12's and then the 8's.  I forgot to take a picture of the entire job's lumber.

[OlJarhead]

Peter do you off-bear by yourself?

One question for all of you:  If you show up and start the day by lubing the mill etc, at 8am but start actually milling at 9am (after scaling the days logs in my case, lubing the mill, filling water, fuel, checking oil etc etc) do you bill (if by the hour) when the mill starts and loads a log, or when you show up?

I'm curious.  My wife thinks if I am working on the job for the job I bill unless on breaks, I billed based on milling, exceptions in contract are if I break out my chainsaw etc.

Thanks

[Peter Drouin]

Yes, I did Best day was 2400 bf of 1" boards. With 2bys I did better. Putting the lumber on the sawdust side of the mill I'm not walking with the lumber. I spin it on the mill set one end on the pile where the size went sliding it then grab the other end and push, 4 to 5 boards at a time. I have a snow shovel and a garbage with wheels to move the sawdust out of the way. That took 10 min and if I had mud or uneven ground. I used the dust to make it nice to walk on.

With an off bearer or two, the wood went off the back end. Best day 5600bf of 1" better with 2bys. And that's full 2" not 1½ stuff and call it 2" for the tally.
you did good . 8) 8)

[OlJarhead]

Wow!  I cannot imagine producing even what I did while unloading it all myself! 

On my question about about billing hourly, here is what my day was like:
8:00am -- arrive on site, unload truck (cant hooks, rake, saw, fuel, 'mill box' -- has ear plugs, extra gloves, ATF, engine oil, pens, safety glasses etc etc -- sweep off mill, lube rails, clean up anything left from the day before (bark under the loaders etc).
-- Fuel mill, top up water, check oil, change band (note: I've since learned to take it off the night before but will still need to put one on in the AM).
-- scale logs for the day (I was doing 10-12 logs and would scale them, mark on them which log they were so I knew later in the day, and mark if I wanted something specific out of the log).
-- mark (slash mark with wood crayon, red or blue) lumber produced the day before so I know what's new on the day.  Check lumber count and verify against cut list.
8:45 -- load log on mill and begin milling
10:45 -- 15 min break, refuel mill, top up water
12:30 or possibly 1pm -- take lunch
after 30m lunch top up mill with fuel and water and get back to milling.
Couple hours later, take break again -- 15m -- top up mill with water (and fuel if needed -- I usually only added once in the day)
Finish milling at 5:45
Pack up from the day, and leave by 6:00pm

Total time onsite:  10hrs  -- billing time to customer 8hrs

Am I wrong?

[WV Sawmiller]

Eric,

   Looks fair to me. Only question I would have would be the time scaling the logs but if that is necessary and saves you time later on I can see the customer paying for it. I don't scale ahead of time but just count the yield at the end of the job but if you need to select certain logs to match items on the cut list I can see that as legitimate customer expense.

    I normally bill by the bf but my basic thoughts are that when billing hourly the customer should be expected to pay for my time from the point where I am ready to work (assuming it is as agreed with the client to be ready by that time too if he is responsible for providing labor). Maintenance including cleaning, set up (band installation/changes, etc.), fueling, etc. is on my nickel. Any log prep, stacking, etc. is customer responsibility (do it or pay me to do so). Interim cleaning of the mill such as blowing the sawdust off the mill and/or lumber, shoveling or blowing sawdust if it builds up to the point it is in the way, moving the slab or lumber pile, cutting any required stickers, etc., is on the customer tab since these jobs must be done to keep a safe an efficient operation.

   I gather some sawyers bill from the time they are hooked up and leave the house. This includes their mill transport and set up. I am not sure if they also bill for break down and return but that is also fair if you explain ahead of time and the customer understands and agrees to such.

[Magicman]

All scaling and billing should be previously discussed and agreed upon between you and the customer.

I do all of my cleanup and jug refilling in the evening after I stop sawing.  The only activity required in the morning is to apply ATF where needed and install the blade.  When I am sawing hourly rate, the time starts when I engage the blade and stops when I shut the engine off for lunch and quitting time.  I do not take morning and evening breaks.

[Bandmill Bandit]

I have yet to find a log my mill will not lift.

I have had a pine 24 footer that was 22 inches on the small end with minimum taper. Had to trim the but flare to get the band through.

No problems cutting it at all. That was my first over length beam. 12"X12"X24"

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

Thanks Herb. Just a little something I threw together. Jarhead, that is a good whack of lumber there. Good job.

Well, you can throw me one any time...

Herb

[OlJarhead]

All scaling and billing should be previously discussed and agreed upon between you and the customer.

I do all of my cleanup and jug refilling in the evening after I stop sawing.  The only activity required in the morning is to apply ATF where needed and install the blade.  When I am sawing hourly rate, the time starts when I engage the blade and stops when I shut the engine off for lunch and quitting time.  I do not take morning and evening breaks.

Curious:  how long does it take you in the AM?  Perhaps I'm still just a little new to getting ready on this mill.  My old mill took me a while since I would check the plane of the two rails every morning and make adjustments as needed etc and that took some extra time.  I also checked all bolts etc to ensure they were tight.  I spent about an hour getting ready in the AM and didn't bill for it.  This job it was closer to 45 minutes and included scaling logs but maybe there isn't much need to do that.  I did it because I had a lot of 2x12's to mill for the customer and needed to know what I had that would produce them and how many etc as well as a reminder to mill certain things out of various logs -- like the 8x8 they wanted.  I wanted to make sure I had a decent minimum 12" SE DIA log that was straight and would likely produce a decent beam -- that was my thinking anyway.  Same with the 6x6's etc.  I scaled the logs, gave them a number (in order they were in the stack but with some on top one might be two depending on how they rolled off) and kept a record of what I milled throughout the day by checking them off the list.  When I saw a number rolled up on the deck, say log 6, I knew what it was scaled at and could produce without needing to measure at that time.  I knew what I intended to do with it and could just get it rolled the way I wanted, clamped down and engage them mill more or less.

In the end I'm justs thinking I'm doing too much in the morning if I'm onsite for 45 minutes to an hour and not being paid for it -- unless of course that's normal.

I also kept track of what I produced because I want to know how I'm doing.  Like a report card so to speak.  If I'm producing 1500bf in an 8 hour day and that's average for an LT40HDG26 when milling pine and my lumber is square and straight than I'm happy.  If on the other hand everyone else is producing fine lumber and milling 3000bf in the same time period than I might be asking too much for my services!  After all, why pay me the same rate that you can pay a MM and get twice the lumber, production, experience whatever.

It's a personal thing but important to me in that I want to produce fine lumber AND produce it at a decent rate for people.  Make sense?

I also don't want to be spending 1 or 2 hours a day working for free when I could be paid for it.  My wife puts it this way "would you have to clean the mill, fuel it up, change the band and add water if you weren't milling for them? and if not, then why on earth would you not be paid for it?".

Of course, in the end I guess you get paid what the customer is willing to pay.

[OlJarhead]

I should rephrase that: I keep track of what I produce and post here because.....see above.

I also kept track of the cut list and when I'd milled what they wanted.

[Magicman]

Curious:  how long does it take you in the AM?

Maybe 30 minutes, but there is always some bulls that need to be shot.  ;D 

[Kbeitz]

I would have billed for the 10 hours. It's all work and someone has to pay.

[Dave Shepard]

I'm in that camp as well. My time spent on the customers behalf. I wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the customer. Having said that, some things sitting be on my time. Fueling, greasing, breakdowns. You'll have to figure out what feels fair to you, without feeling you are giving too much away.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I probably take about 30 minutes each morning getting set up. That includes removing the cover, greasing the moving parts with ATF, lubing the pad on the rail, installing the band, checking the oil, etc. I generally take my fuel and water (if below freezing) tank home with me and fuel/fill it on the way home or on the way back. (Some folks never take their tank off I understand). Also included is putting my tools in place. My short cant hook goes under the front of the mill to turn cants on the mill, my logrite goes on the log pile to load the mill. My leaf blower goes in a certain location. I am probably anal about taking all these things home every night from some secure locations but it is the way I do business. I blow the dust off the mill at the end of every day. My morning routine I do not/would not bill for - some would but I don't.

    I guess the big question to answer is would you think it was fair for a contractor to bill you for the things you are billing your client for? We've said it repeatedly but the main thing is absolute clarity between the customer and sawyer as to what is provided and needs to be paid for in advance. Nobody likes unpleasant surprises.

[Bandmill Bandit]

My job timer starts when I park my butt in the truck seat to head to job site and stops when I shut the mill off at the end of the day.

Maintenance happens AFTER The mill is shut off at end of day. De duct 1 hour for lunch and coffee breaks.

Keeps it real simple.