iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

ARRGH! I think I just got a call from the perfect client. Now WHAT do I do?!

Started by Old Greenhorn, June 01, 2022, 06:00:11 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Old Greenhorn

So we all do what we can do to steer our side businesses or retirement businesses into a comfortable flow of work we can handle and enjoy while brining in some money. At least that is what I have tried to do. My webpage is not a 'sales builder' rather it seeks to limit expectations and get folks to call me with an understanding that I work at a pace I can handle, I am not walmart or burger king, and if you like what you see we can talk about what you want, but don't expect it to be delivered next week...or even next month. Of course most of the calls I get are from folks with high expectations and rapid service requirements, so the webpage hasn't really generated much. However it has provided education to many, or so I am told and some folks even enjoy reading it.

 I told you all that so I could tell you this:
 Around mid-morning I am out in the swamp dragging brush and feeding the burn pile trying to clean up 3 years of storm damage and tree cuttings so maybe I can reclaim that ground some day into usable space. My phone rings and I don't know the number, could be another spam call, but I answer it. It's not spam. The fella calling had learned of my business from my association with the "Logs to NYC" project I worked on last summer and he checked out my website and saw the furniture builds I have done in my gallery. He wants me to build him a table. I think a dining table. He had some logs and asked if I could make it from those, but we quickly worked it down to where it would not be a good plan, given his distance from me (just over and hours drive) and the size of the logs (around 12" he says). But he would like the table made from trees common on his property. We settled on Red Oak.

 We talked about some details but not all of them yet. I asked if he could first give me a LxWxH dimensions to start. He wanted hefty solid wood legs. I suggested that we could do that but he might want to take a look at the RiteLeg page first and see if something didn't tickle his fancy. I really like their stuff and it makes my job a lot easier and dang but they do look really good. He was taken with a couple of my benches and wants one to go with the table. He liked my waterfall benches. I am not sure about making a (possibly) 7' long bench with blind spline miter joints but I suppose I could try.

 When I realized this guy was asking for a substantial build, for me a major project (some of y'all know how I can obsess on these things), I cautioned him that this would take a fair amount of time. He scoffed and said "I don't care about the time, weeks, months, whatever, I just want something unique and nice. A good thick top. Something hefty but pretty. I like what I've seen you make, you do it the way you want." :)
 We never talked about cost but it did kind of come out that he doesn't care. He works on Wall St. and has a 'homestead' upstate where he likes to play and be comfortable and enjoy life.

 So now I have to figure out how to build this gentleman a table like I have never made. I don't yet know if he wants live edge or not, but either way I have yet to build a wide table top and I am not sure how I will join the boards and get it all flat, how I will do the edges, will I do a T&G jointing. I have no idea. All I know now is he said a farm table sort of thing, thick, with 4 legs. But we have some discussions to go and I am waiting for his basic dimensions before we start talking. I am guessing he is talking around 40" x 84" or so. I am going to have to do a little digging for wood that has been drying for a while so I don't have to wait. 

 Do any of you master woodguys have any ideas on dining table designs I might be able to execute or incorporate design elements of? I have just looked at about 500 different table designs on the internet and got a few ideas of the overall appearance, but really it comes down to the nuts and bolts of the top assembly. I'm just looking for a little 'getting going' help.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

WV Sawmiller

   A quick review with the design committee suggests you should make 2. One Live Edge and one Edged and the bets are in highly favor on the side he will buy both. ::)

  I am confident the customer will be happy with what you decide. Keep us posted on the progress and the results.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Old Greenhorn

Howard, frankly that sounds like a pretty hasty meeting to me. I am dubious. No I will not make two tops before I even know his size requirements yet. 
 I am more concerned about the edge joining and the details of the build. For someone's home centerpiece I have to make something nice. Bill does this all the time, me, not so much.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Hilltop366

Now if you had some 6" ish trees with roots still attached (roots trimmed off and ends rounded over) for the legs. That would be different.

Make the top last so you can fasten to the rest as soon as possible to reduce the risk of the top changing shape.

Larry

Interesting, just a few minutes ago I finished reading Sam Maloof-Woodworker an autobiography by Sam Maloof.  In his book he discusses a few of his customer negotiations with some of the same concerns you have expressed.  A lot of other excellent information about custom work and his life in general.  You might check to see if your library has a copy as it is worthy of the read.  I picked up my copy from ebay cheap.  Oh, and it also has lots of great pictures!

If I want to learn something, I try going to the best for instruction and Sam fits perfectly.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Old Greenhorn

And BANG! just like that I ordered the book Larry, looks like a good one. Should be here within a week, I hope.

 Hilltop I have looked at those stump table designs but boy howdy it must take a lot of hours to clean out and sand and finish all those nooks and crannys. That would be a table worth 6 grand by the time you got through it. What do you do for PPB in a stump? ;D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Hilltop366

Well ya it would take a lot of work but it won't be me doing it..... but I'm willing to volunteer someone else to. 

jimbarry

If you go with a 6x6 leg, connect them with a 2x4 apron or even a 2x5. It's an odd dimension but feature it as a custom add on. A chunk top 2-1/2 or 3 inches thick is substantial in weight. You could go with a 1" or 1-1/2" thick top and trim the underside edge with the same to give the appearance of hefty. It would make it easier to move around. But, maybe he wants to dance on the top of it, who knows. Give him options.

You could do simple edge joinery with biscuits, or dowels or a spline. For a thick top I'd probably do a 1/4" thick plywood spline. Get fancy with a breadboard end and square pegs in a round hole. :)

Attach the top to the apron with cleats that allow for wood movement. Sort of like the mission style table design we have.

Old Greenhorn

All great ideas Jim, they get the juices flowing. Biscuits I don't like for heavy stuff, I was thinking T&G rahter than a spline, but still now I need to think some more.
 You did lose me with the square peg in a round hole thing, I am not familiar with that. In fact I have no idea what that means unless it refers to how I fit in society. :D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

firefighter ontheside

There's nothing like the feeling of jointing some long boards that fit perfectly and gluing them together into a large top.  I use my jointer with long tables to do that, but it can be done with other tools.  Something you might do is use a track saw to joint the edges.  It doesn't have to be a festool track saw either.  You don't have to have two perfectly straight edges.  You have to have two edges that match up perfectly.  With a track saw you push two slabs up against each other and cut them both at the same time and the cut will make perfectly mating edges.  
 
You don't need a biscuit cutter or domino for strenght, but it helps a lot with lining up the pieces of the glue up and that will help a lot when you go to clean up the glue joints.  I used to use a card scraper for the job, but then I came across a stanley scraper plane and that's my go to now.  Very good for removing glue and evening up the little bit that slabs are misaligned.  Yes, it may be a good time to buy new tools.

Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

firefighter ontheside

Don't be afraid of biscuits.  They only serve to line up the individual pieces as you are gluing them.  All the strength comes from the glue and well fitting edge.  You don't want to be trying to close up gaps with clamping harder.  That just squeezes too much glue out of the joint and adds a lot of stress to the top.  When I apply glue, I put glue on one surface and make sure the glue is spread across 100% of the surface and that there is enough glue for even squeeze out.  Some guys will spread glue on both sides.  I think that just wastes a lot of glue.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

21incher

The easy way out for the table. Talk him into selecting a kd sterilized flattened slab from Logrite and a set of legs from rite leg.  Final sand, finish, and screw the legs on. Then spend time on the benches. Done and paid for in 3 weeks.  Or spend weeks flattening an air dry slab, another  week making legs, another week making benches, and then take a chance you carry a wood eating  bug into a multi million  dollar house. A summer project.  All depends  on how much time you have after all your  other commitments. Can't  wait to see the results. 
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

firefighter ontheside

I built this table about 10 years ago.  He wanted it originally from oak, but I talked him into yellow pine, because I like it and it weighed a lot less than oak.  This is all reclaimed timbers.  6x6 legs that come thru the top.

 
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

firefighter ontheside

I've been using kiln dried Doug fir 4x4 from Menards for table legs.  I joint and plane them to  be flat and square and they can be painted and also look nice with finish.  In your area, I would think hemlock would be good to use for something like that.  We can't get a lot of hemlock around here, but I do find it for stair rail parts and I like the color of it.  Finding kiln dried heavy red oak timbers will be difficult.  Either talk him out of it or look for some reclaimed timbers.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

Wlmedley

 

 Built this table last year .Poplar top 2" thick,walnut base and legs.I have very limited wood working tools.Used a hand plane to get glue joints even and laid  the two top pieces on my sawmill bunks and used ratchet straps to hold them together until glue dried.Everyone that sees it says I could sell it for a pretty good price but then I wouldn't have a table to look at and the money wouldn't last long  :laugh:
Bill Medley WM 126-14hp , Husky372xp ,MF1020 ,Homemade log arch,Yamaha Grizzly 450,GMC2500,Oregon log splitter

Crusarius

This sounds like the worst customer to me. I could never decide on what to build and always be concerned he wouldn't like it.

That said, if you need any CNC inlays or flattening, I think I am about 4 hours from you.

Larry

Used to be warping in tabletops was not much of a problem.  The reason was because we used clear, straight grain, 4 or 5/4 kiln dry boards.  Any warp could be controlled by breadboard ends, and or aprons.

In today's world folks want thick live edge boards with lots of character.  Thick is hard to get dry completely even in a kiln.  Live edge means the board will have a mix of flat sawn, quarter sawn, and juvenile wood.  Knots add to the problem.  Using this kind of lumber I won't build a table unless I use "C" channel made to keep table tops flat.  The good stuff is alloy steel and expensive plus it takes time to install.  Don't use it but be prepared to explain to the customer why one of his table legs lifted off the floor a 1/2". 
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Ianab

This is our kitchen table that I made a few years back. 



It's simply a slab of live edge cypress, some epoxy to fill the smallish knot holes, and mounted on a simple trestle sort of frame. 

This is the frame alone. The bottom stretcher is done with through tenons and pegged, and the smaller top stringers are just screwed at each end. Just basic 2X with lap joints and screws on the inside where they aren't seen. The top is the held with a few screws into the top stringers, which have enough flex for some seasonal movement. Means the whole table can be broken down in about 2 minutes if it needs to be moved (or to get it into the house in the first place). It's plenty sturdy once assembled. 



I have a jig that mounts a router to my old mill frame / rails. This lets me joint and plane over size pieces like this It can also edge joint in the same way, just clamp the boards uptight, make sure they are square, and route them flat.  Not as fast a WM Slabmaster, or a planer blade on a swing blade, but, I can easily do a full size table top, flat enough to finish with a sander.  

Wood choice also matters. Monterrey Cypress is pretty stable, and also naturally durable, borers aren't interested, so you don't have the need to sterilise some some more palatable woods. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

aigheadish

This sounds like a fun challenge Tom, even if you do need a bit more info. I'm sure whatever you do will turn out great and 21incher's option may work well for you too.

I've got a buddy that has asked me to build a bookshelf, which is fine, though I've never build something like that, but after telling him that I hadn't forgotten about it after months of not discussing it, he told me not to worry about that part. If he didn't see it for 5 years it wouldn't bother him. He's also given me poetic license on it to make it as I see fit, so while that leaves a lot of options open it's also nice to have some free reign on a design. He's given me dimensions and said have at it. One of these days I'll need to start making some lumber out of the trees I've got. 
New Holland LB75b, Husqvarna 455 Rancher, Husqvarna GTH52XLS, Hammerhead 250, Honda VTX1300 for now and probably for sale (let me know if you are interested!)

Tom K

My main advice would be to make sure the quality & level of finish you are going to provide match his expectations. Be prepared to spray a 2k topcoat or something similar. I made the mistake once years ago of thinking a lacquer would hold up on a table top, it wont.

Follow all the rules for jointery and wood movement, use kiln dried sanitized lumber, and finish both sides of the top evenly. Not finishing both sides evenly causes a lot of warped tops.

That's just the basics until size & style are determined. 

WV Sawmiller

  So in addition to making an edged and a live edge version you now need to make it in multiple sizes. I'd start at 6' and work my way up to 10' in one foot increments of each and I bet you will have at least one exactly like he wants. :D
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Old Greenhorn

Well thank you all for the (mostly) useful ideas, information, and thoughts! I haven't replied until now because I have been thinking on them all and gotten some more detail from the client, which of course, leads to more questions. I also spent some time on the phone with Rite Leg trying to get a custom quote but of course, I need to get more details from the client, so more questions to him. He picked out some nice legs for the table and matching legs for the bench but wants them powder coated in grey, so now I need a RAL number for the color before it can be quoted.
 He wants the table at 72x32.5" and a 13x72" matching bench. I might need 3 legs for that bench, not sure. He is firm on wanting RO. SO I am looking around for some dry wood right now. A few phone calls waiting on responses, working through the network of locals. 
 More info when I have it. Still doing a lot of thinking.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

firefighter ontheside

I think I would use some sort aprons on the bench or a brace in the middle of it to make it stiff enough to span before deciding on 3 legs.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

Larry

I've made heavy custom metal legs.  Power coating is normally around $200 with steel adding another couple hundred.  So I figure $500 in material cost plus my labor.  Since I'm really not a fabricator, its more cost effective to let somebody else make them.  Welds look prettier also.

 
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

boonesyard

Your customer definitely has something in his head that will trip his trigger, he just doesn't know how to describe it or put it in to words. He's seen your work and trusts you will come up with something that lines up with his style. We handle our business similar to how you describe yours and we we get a lot of clients that say the same thing, "we like what you do and I'll like whatever you come up with". That's a lot of pressure, but don't over think it. The customer likes your taste. There are just about as many styles of tables as there are people. Just get the general idea of what the customer wants, then go down the research rabbit hole and come up with something that feels right. An open line of communication with the customer is imperative at this stage.  

Follow the rules of wood movement for the top. Kiln dried wood for a large table top, IMO, is a must. We use dominoes, but dowels, biscuits or anything that helps align slabs makes the glue up enormously easier. If the customer has an idea of a top with a lot of character instead of something straight grained, Larry explained the use of using imbedded "c" channels to keep the top flat, very important. Metal legs look great and can shorten the job, but some want the purity and beauty of wood. 

I think epoxy tables are a love/hate deal, I have customers that like it and others that don't. I know they're a ton of work:

Integrated metal legs and c channel on this one. There's a couple other features on this one including rails for LED lights, battery and control compartment.

 

Completed live edge epoxy table



Laminated wood trestle style legs. Imbedded c channels are under the trestle leg assembly



Completed live edge bar height trestle table



Good luck with your project, but most important, enjoy!
LT50 wide
Riehl Steel Edger
iDRY Standard kiln
BMS 250/BMT 250
JD 4520 w/FEL
Cat TH255 Telehandler
lots of support equipment and not enough time

"I ain't here for a long time, I'm here for a good time"

Thank You Sponsors!