Table top finish

[Texas Ranger]

Looking for wisdom.

I have tried several over the years, each seems to have a hickup, or I do with them.

What do y'all recommend for spray. Newer stuff I may not recognize

[doc henderson]

inside I assume, what kind of wood.  who will use it, commercial or family.  I love to spray but on large projects do not discount the wipe on poly like a Danish oil, hard wax oil, or general finishes arm-r-seal.  I was schooled by @tule peak timber to use pour on bar top epoxy, but not in a single 1/4 inch fake looking pour, but in many thin applications with sanding in between.  on the shoe rack shelf, I used a brush on wipe off, or you can get missed spots, and edges that show.  I spray a lot of the minwax helmsman uv protected poly.  



 

 

Danish oil natural



 

 

 

 

 

this is the thin application of bar top epoxy.  started with thin penetrating then did the edges with some sawdust mixed in to make all stable.

[Texas Ranger]

Thanks, Doc, I have used a lot of Minwax, also used Deft on some projects.  This an interior dining table, old, have not identified the wood other than light color, heavy and hard. 

[firefighter ontheside]

I sprayed laquer on the last table I built.  It turned out ok, but I have hiccups with spraying laquer.  For tables I fall back to brushing on oil based poly.  I shy away from spraying oil based poly, because I don't like to clean up the sprayer after using oil based poly.  I have used some low voc poly from Target finishes.  I did not spray it, but I certainly could.  It's worth looking into.  It's water based but is supposed to mimic the look of oil based.

[customsawyer]

A few of my local customers that build tables, counter tops and bars have gone to using Flooring poly for the finish. They say it isn't as difficult as epoxy with air bubbles and such. It still has a nice look and can take some abuse.

[69bronco]

 

 

Last table I did this summer I used floor finish, 5 coats.

[WDH]

For spray, I like General Finishes water based polyurethane.

https://www.amazon.com/General-Finishes-PTHS-Performance-Topcoat/dp/B00M236NUO/ref=asc_df_B00M236NUO/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193184886406&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7290558082283432138&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011392&hvtargid=pla-315665048863&th=1

[firefighter ontheside]

Danny, how does that hold up to a wet glass sitting on a table for a long period of time.  That's my only reason for not using water based products on tables, especially kitchen.  My dining table has about 5 coats of oil based poly and I can leave a wet glass on there forever and it doesnt leave a ring.

[kantuckid]

One of my go to finishes for such a table is three coats of Danish Oil (I use WATCO natural) then with the prescribed 72 hours or longer, then either Minwax or Watco poly satin wipe on finish. They are both, either brand, the same stuff.
  For some sort of "perfection" a sprayed lacquer is what they'll all have in a furniture store. A low VOC, EPA compliant finish always is on commercial stuff.
  I have much spray experience in AB work and equipment but mostly never spray my furniture builds.  Danish Oil deepens colors and pops the grain, poly wipes are the durable aspect for a table top. You could skip them on the table skirts and legs using only the oil below. My own dining table is hand varnished using WATCO Danish then old fashioned oil based (non poly) Waterlox Varnish. It's pricey but it top notch stuff! My great room wide oak board floor I made also has Waterlox satin varnish on it. Wife use some Walmart Orange glo now and then so a durable, easy to maintain finish. 
Thats my top suggestion-Waterlox Satin varnish
High end (rich folks furniture) that's custom made will have several choices of finish depending on who built it.
Wipe on's offer application control that replaces the need to spray with the last few coats. I brush on the two early coats with most woods then wipe them. 
I remember years ago when doing a gunstock I'd put on dozens of coats with an oil (Linseed based oil with a drier added) like Tru-oil. No longer makes sense for me.  

[Tom K]

It comes down to what expectation you have in terms of looks and performance.

Your not going to get a finish as smooth brushing as you would spraying. I've sprayed quite a bit of lacquer, but a table top is not the place for lacquer. I learned that lesson quite a few years ago, it just isn't durable & hard enough. Maybe some of the newer post catalyzed lacquers have come far enough to hold up ok, but the pre-cat. I used 10 years ago didn't cut it.

Most Pro's would probably recommend a urethane or 2k poly for tables, but that might be a little over kill for your personal use. I can't comment on any of the oil finished as I haven't used them, but I would like to try on some smaller pieces in the future. The epoxy method Doc mentioned sounds very durable. I've been stuck in the world of painted built-ins lately and haven't done any clear finishes in a few years.

I know it's more of a personal bias, but there are much better finishes out there then Minwax. My bias is more towards there stains then there finished though. I very much dislike using their stains. General Finishes, Target Coatings, and even Sherwin Williams has some decent products.

[scsmith42]

In terms of durability for a table top finish, it's hard to top post catalyzed conversion varnish.  Most commercial restaurant tables use this finish.

There is now a water based version too.

When I don't want to break out the spray rig, on oak I've been starting with pure tung oil thinned with d-limonene, and then top coated with Gleam marine varnish with some Penetrol added to help smooth out the brush / roller marks.  That's how this 48" wide QSWO slab table top is finished.  The Gleam is the satin version.  One nice thing about Gleam is that you can sand it after 3-4 hours and recoat the same day, versus waiting 24 hours for tung oil to cure.







This is a table top of a pair of bookmatched copper beech slabs from a tree planted by Teddy Roosevelt and that grew at Sagamore Hill.  It died while standing, and had a lot of spalt in it.  It was first treated with pure tung oil.  Then the spalted areas were stabilized with a thinned epoxy (RTG Wood Rot Repair Epoxy), with a thin coat spread across both faces.  It was then sprayed with water based post catalyzed conversion varnish on both sides, and polished on the show side.







The red maple bookmatched slab island top below was finished with Tung oil followed by satin conversion varnish.






Another couple of tung oil / conversion varnish tops:  The top one is bookmatched white oak, the bottom one is a single 44" red oak slab.

[Walnut Beast]

Great information and pictures 👍

[Tom K]

Great work there SCSmith.

I remembered last night that I forgot to mention conversion varnish. CV finishes have been a mainstay in commercial finishing for decades. Usually the go to for kitchen cabinets and other high use areas, and yes a lot of table tops. A CV would fall between post cat. lacquer & a 2k poly on the durability scale. My understanding is that as the urethane & 2k poly finishes have become more user friendly most have switched to them for table tops.

My hope is to switch over to all water base top coats in the future. I look forward to trying to spray some of these water based poly's, lacquers, and CV's.

I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread, but it's worth repeating. Make sure you put equal coats of finish on each side of the top to equalize the moisture. If not one side will be more susceptible to moisture loss/gain and can cause warpage and movement.

[Tom K]

Since ScSmith and I both mentioned catalyzed finished I figured it might be worth a quick explanation for those that may not be familiar. 

Any off the shelf poly, varnish, lacquer would be a single part un catalyzed finish. 

Off the shelf lacquer would be a nitro lacquer, easy to spray but not super durable. No shelf life limits.

Pre cat. lacquer would typically be catalyzed at place of purchase, more durable then nitro, typically 60-90 day shelf life. 

Post cat. products, either CV's or lacquers, you will catalyze on site and typically have a pot life of anywhere from 2-16 hours. 

Your 2k poly's, urethanes, epoxies are all two part products.

That's a very short/brief run down.

[kantuckid]

When Walmart took WATCO's Tung oil off the shelves I bought every can. They also took The spar varnish down too and we were in FL winter triping and as we stocked up on food moving around I bought varnish up when still there. Watco tung can be used underneath and I have done so as an oil to pop the grain & color under another topcoat. It's a tung oil combo with driers that make it easier to use than pure tung.
Those a beautiful slab tops!    

[Texas Ranger]

Gentlemen, you have been most educational, now, identify the wood in this top, please.

[beenthere]

Looks a bit like oak that has iron filings in the pores from finishing with steel wool and turned black from the tannin. But just a guess.. pic just a bit out of focus.

[scsmith42]

I can't tell but it looks asian to me.

[Texas Ranger]

Looks a bit like oak that has iron filings in the pores from finishing with steel wool and turned black from the tannin. But just a guess.. pic just a bit out of focus.

I have been out of focus for years.

[kantuckid]

Is it an old veneered oak pedestal table? They often have White oak top layer thats similar when veneered. 

[Texas Ranger]

Four legged dinning room table. I am thinking white oak, now, and is the hardest veneer I have ever worked.

[kantuckid]

One technique, fuming, that only is possible with acid woods like oak and chestnut is an ammonia treatment either by fumes or swabing on the aromatic the juice. I've done the nearest easy process, swabbing on several projects over the years. It causes what becomes an in the wood, antiquing effect unlike any other. Our American Chestnut kitchen island is my most recent version. It's got a pure black African granite top (with inherent sparkles) which fits well with the darkened chestnut cabinet below. I buy "janitorial strength ammonia" from Ace Hardware for couple bucks, as it's faster working than the regular Walmart or grocery stuff. It opens yer sinuses pretty good but not dangerous as is fuming which calls for a cabinet to hold the entire project and an industrial product to fume with.
Done lazy style, you simply swab the wood and let it dry a day or so. All finish must have been removed! It will raise the grain some, not a lot, so lightly sand with a finish paper like 220/320 afterwards before you proceed.
It gives a look that appeals to me especially on old furniture. It would tend to blend with that darker wood pore mentioned earlier in the thread. Yes, WO is hard. Is the pic showing sanded wood or stripped, un-sanded wood? 

I think unmentioned so far is the dreaded finishers nightmare called silicone! The housewife's go to furniture goop is Pledge (or similar) which is a silicone spray. Silicone causes what are called fisheyes in most any finish known to man. It's tough to get rid of to say the least and almost guaranteed to be on any old furniture or newish  :D Google some ideas for removing it which will usually involve several attempts, never a one time and all is well idea. 
I've fought it in AB work tooth and nail, especially with new plastic parts which have mold release compounds or old parts with silicone polish residue.  

[Texas Ranger]

I stripped the top twice with two different strippers.  The top had been refinished 25 or 30 years ago, but not the leaves.  The tops "new" finish came off with the first stripper, the leaves, not so much.  For uniformity I stripped the top again, and sanded all.  Did I say this was the hardest veneer I have ever worked?

[kantuckid]

Strippers are lawyered up and far from as effective as once was. I have a gallon of "aircraft stripper" that won't touch old paints on antiques. The gels and goopy versions seem to work better from box store strippers. 
I'd rather build a table anytime than re-finish one. 
It's also tough to find gloves that stand up to protect your skin from many strippers, even though they work poorly. The ones that protect are like Army chemical gloves...

[doc henderson]

@kantuckid I am not sure that a subject about latex protection from strippers is appropriate for this family oriented forum.     8) 8)    :D :D :D :D

aircraft strippers?  @Texas Ranger did something twice with two different strippers, and Kantuckid has strippers that are lawyered up...

all this talk about Asians and housewives... i think you guys are on the wrong forum!!!   :D :D

[kantuckid]

Yea, bad women are my main event, when I'm not living with my trophy hillbilly wife... 8) who is currently adjusting the branches on her new fake Christmas tree that cost more than several cars I've owned. 

While talking bad stuff, I took the next to the last step as the last step off a ladder yesterday and to compensate I stuck my short left leg out to stay upright. I'd left my reading glasses on and may have skewed mt vision when I descended the ladder. 
 It seriously strained my hip abductors, i.e. the rear muscles. Solid hard core burning sensation. 
 I'm icing and have it wrapped with a big ACE bandage and that compression helped a lot. I can walk, sort of, and lift but sitting on a nice soft air ride seat like my tractor, it feels like a softball is fixed to back of my hip. I've been re-arranging my shop for a guy I hired to help me run 4x6x14" SYP thru the planer and handled that OK. Not sure I'm ready to push my tractor clutch a bunch of times for me next job I've got handling logs and rock?
I wish I knew if it was torn or just a worse strain than before the ladder silly stuff. Tomorrow is my knee doc shots visit so maybe he can sort it for me?

The Jayhawks seem to have re-learned the game of football. KSU never has forgot.  FWIW, two of my HS classmates I graduated with & played with were all American players at KU.  

[customsawyer]

I'm glad  you said it Doc. I'm over here rolling on the floor laughing. Tammy and the dog have a wondering look on their faces. Wondering what is wrong with me. Alright boys back to the strippers. Please post video links. :D

[Larry]

Please post video links. :D

Yes 8)

[doc henderson]

Jake and Larry, I am here to make you smile!

[tule peak timber]

A couple of tables finishing up in the shop right now. For finish, I am using the Awlcraft 2000 system. Lots of pros and cons with this post catalyzed multi-part linear polyurethane coating. The only thing we have found that is harder is Awlgrip, but we've never had much success polishing or touching up and we have never, ever had a perfect spray or brush job. Finishing table tops to perfection is hard to do and time consuming. Just a quick list of why I am using this Awlcraft system:
Pros: 1. very hard, very durable, chemical resistant UV resistant
         2. adheres well over epoxy and our basic furniture prep is epoxy, many thin sanded coats of penetrating epoxy, then a thin coat of epoxy for imperfection correction
         3. can be manually buffed from a satin to a crystal clear diamond look finish
Cons:  1. expensive
           2. must be sprayed 
           3. this stuff really stinks and personal protection and airflow is an absolute must
           4. lots of prep with two types of dewaxer cleaners
           5. there are 3 component that needs to be mixed precisely

Over the years we have used all sorts of polys, linear polys, various water based, varnishes, conversion varnishes, etc. etc. etc. I am hamstrung to a great degree because of CA air quality standards and I wish I could still get plain, old fashioned phenolic based varnish, but I can't. So, doing the best I can with the ever changing laws out here. 

 

 

 

[kantuckid]

I have a Catalpa table made from a cookies style disc cut ~ 4" thick x 30" dia , was cut by a farmer in KS that my Mom came up with for me.
I had sanded it out and placed 3 octagon legs under it as a high 3-person table for a porch and set it aside.

Concurrently I was ready to clear coat a car AB job and found myself with an overmix of clear coat automotive finish. I shot that table several coats-straight onto the wood and a couple of golf woods made from multi ply in an older style head and can say it's still shining nicely on our porch.
The AB clears stand up to a golf ball well too. CA wouldn't like what we paint with here. ;D

Only table I've ever sprayed (I don't do commercial work such as seen above) except the one I'm typing on now, which used to be our dining room oak trestle table years ago. I shot it in old nitro lacquer which is known as a less than great durable finish over time but lays down beautifully for awhile. It has so much puter stuff and copiers and whatnot that It never gets refinished :D
One very important point here is that those tables and the system used by Tule peak timber is a system which calls for a large  dollar investment of materials that have shelf life's never to being logical for an amateur woodworker. I have a dedicated woodshop but it's amateur I find I must strike a balance that makes sense for my projects. An e.g is that I have recently had to throw away a part of a gallon of an epoxy primer that cost $$$. Of course, I still save money over paying someone else to shoot my paints now and then. FWIW, having a friend with an AB shop saves me at times as I'll use his leftovers or pay him to shoot something I prepped. He's going to weld my utility trailers new axle brackets on for me soon as I've sold my weld stuff.