Backhoe help

[EricR]

I am looking to upgrade and consolidate some of my equipment.  I have a kubota 121 excavator, asv 4810 track loader, and an older ford 340b backhoe that I would like to replace all with a little more modern backhoe.  My trouble is which one.  I had my mind set on a Deere 710 and have seen some nice low hour d series around.  I read some say they are too heavy  and not very nimble but they are "excavator on wheels"  and have great dig power which is what I'm looking for, but as I start to do my research I see that most backhoes spec out with similar bucket and dipper forces as I have shown in the picture.  (These are specs from manufactures brochures found online). 
With the numbers shown the 710 is not really any stronger then the lighter more nimble machines.  Is it simply about having more reach or are these specs not accurate in the real world
Wondering if there's anyone on here with experience operating different size backhoes to compare their strength
Thanks


 <br

[customsawyer]

I have owned a JD 310 and now have a Cat 420DIT. I don't remember much of a strength difference on the hoe ends of these. However the front loader part is much stronger on the cat. There's a few different reasons for this.

[Resonator]

I would check over the machine thoroughly before buying (1990's vintage I'm guessing). If it needs major repairs price the parts first (Deere is known for high $$$$) and the cost to move a 12 ton machine. They were popular for utility work and road construction, where it was more practical to drive a rubber tire machine down city streets to worksites, instead of hauling in an excavator.

[barbender]

I think you have far more versatility with what you have.

[EricR]

I think you have far more versatility with what you have.

He asv has undercarriage problems and it's time to move on from it. I would like to have more digging power then the 121, mostly for digging stumps, and the old ford is a good little machine but a dinosaur.  This is a support piece which will mostly stay at my yard/farm.  I have a jd 455 track loader, timberjack, and bell super t that I use for work.  I am a wood guy I try my best to stay away from dirt work

[EricR]

I would check over the machine thoroughly before buying (1990's vintage I'm guessing). If it needs major repairs price the parts first (Deere is known for high $$$$) and the cost to move a 12 ton machine. They were popular for utility work and road construction, where it was more practical to drive a rubber tire machine down city streets to worksites, instead of hauling in an excavator.

If I went with a 710d they went to the late 90's I think. I have my eye on 1 with 3000 hrs on it. It's in nice shape. There are not a lot of the newer series 710 around but if I went with a different make/model I'm looking at machines that are around 10 years old. 

[BargeMonkey]

A 710 hoe is not odd for parts but they are maybe 10% of what deere sells for TLBs. We had a 410C, bought an almost brand new 310SE in 99, sent the 410 away in 05 ?. We keep the 310 for what the 121/3 or new U40 won't dig, deeper septic tanks, plow snow. I wouldn't want a 710, unless you really need a TLB of that size ? It's never going to be a 120/160, handy but a very specific application. 6cyl vs 4cyl. A late D model and E where close, if your going to buy a late E or G I would find one that's pilot if you plan to spend that much time turned around. The boom design on an E is ALOT better and less prone to crack than a C-D, ours didn't get abused and still got welded up. 

[EricR]

Did you find a noticeable difference in dig strength between a 310 and 410. Was the extra weight of the 410 helpful.  When comparing to the 121-3 I realize they are not as handy or fast but hoping the strength makes up for it. I don't think I have ever used it in a situation where i said it was too big.  A 120 would be nice.  I could be wrong but think a tlb would be more useful to me. 

[BargeMonkey]

 The depth and maybe just a little bit power is all your going to notice. Go from 1.2ish to 1.5yd front bucket on 310S to 410 class, like 9hp ? A newer 710G is quite a bit bigger. How much do you wanna spend, how set are you on size / hours / condition. 25-30k gets you a decent TLB, 50-60 buys something nice. TLB pricing / condition always varys widely by region, around here they are going the way of the track loader. 

[scsmith42]

Years ago I did a lot of research before buying my backhoe, and I ended up with a Cat 420Dit.  

What swayed me to this model was.

1 - same weight and size as a 416, but with a much more powerful engine and hydraulic system (ie more digging and lifting power).  I can pick up an 8000 lb log with the forks.  

2 - joystick controls

3 - backhoe could be set for either "backhoe" style or "excavator" style controls.  I prefer excavator style because that way I'm competent on either machine.

4 - the integrated toolchanger on the front end loader.  I cannot stress enough how beneficial it is to swap between forks and a bucket in less than a minute, w/o leaving the cab. 
 
5 - at 16K weight, I can move it on my dual tandem gooseneck trailer.  

I've put 4500 hours on the machine since I bought it used in 2005.  

The last D model was made around 2008 as I recall.  Newer machines have more emissions on them.  If I found a low hour machine in good condition I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

[EricR]

I'm hoping to be 30-40k. I see stuff with around 4000 hours in that price.  An machine with out a lot of emissions is a plus.  A lot of them are snow machines but have seen a few clean ones in that price range and am really hoping to find one with a thumb so that eliminates a lot. Just haven't started to go look yet. I was set on a 710 but maybe am starting to rethink that. I usually just have the mind set of go as big as you can.  
Barge I know you have a lot of other equipment at your disposal but if a tlb was all you had would you consider a 710 then?
Sc Smith were you just looking at cat or did you look at other brands?

[BargeMonkey]

Late model 410G-J pre def, pilot with JRB coupler for the same reasons the other guy just posted ☝is what I would buy if I had a choice. We chain our hoe up on all 4 tires, thing is a weapon in the snow and with a TLB you can typically save / push yourself out, most other machines your done. 
Cats aren't bad but expensive, even a 555-655D Ford/ NH older model isn't bad, I would avoid a JRB but that's my opinion. Where can you get dealer service ? Are you loading trucks constantly ? Trying to reach over a tandem / triaxle with the hoe and load ? Typical out here those 710s come out of municipalitys or big contractors, pounded to the point they need parts and sent down the road. I can go on marketplace or machinery trader and find a 310SE -SG in NICE shape for 25-30 and would be just as happy with that, new enough for parts support but the computer / electronics / Def aren't going to kill you if it sits around. 
Where are you in the country ? There's a dealer in MN ? I can look it up but this guy has the cleanest municipality trades, later model stuff with decent hours and send them all over. 

[EricR]

I'm in south eastern mass.  I think I remember you bringing up lakeville a long time ago.  A few towns south of there right on the coast. I would like to stay in New England.  I guess it's a possibility to go further out but with the cost of shipping it may not work financially for me.  

[BargeMonkey]

 Brookside gets alot of decent stuff, we've gotten 3 trucks and 2 machines from them. Hollinger in PA is another place to shop, GREAT people to deal with. Hunt around a bit you can find a decent machine just wanna watch the salt. Good friend of mine lives in Freetown and I'm due for a ride out one of these days. 

[EricR]

You mention ford. I found a new holland 555e. 2000 hours. It's 2wd but cheap. Trying to decide if that would be a huge mistake

[brianJ]

My 2 wheel drive TLB goes a lot more places than I thought possible as I can use the hoe to assist it thru those tough spots.

[newoodguy78]

I've run all the makes/ models you've mentioned except the case. If given the choice I'd go with the 410 JD with Cat of similar size a very close second. That 710 makes workable spaces shrink quick. 

202 truck and equipment might be worth checking out. He doesn't have the iron Brookside does but usually has clean stuff. It's only about 20 minutes north of Brookside in southwest NH. 

As was mentioned the tool carrier is a game changer if you can find one. All good points made by the guys above. 

[Mountaynman]

Having run most makes a models of the mix you are talkin and just got back in a hoe again the only things i have to add are when you find one make sure its got the squirt boom and thumb already on it. You wouldnt think so but we just added the thumb to our 430 Cat and it was 7k. You can dig and load a truck just have to get positioned right takes a while with a smaller bucket or you can loosen and pile material to load with front bucket. It digs well just not as handy for ditching as an excavator the benefit for us is mobility in the woods just drive it to the next spot that needs fixing just another tool in the box.

[EricR]

I am going to try to find one already with a thumb or at least one plumbed for one but it doesn't seem like a popular option around here and greatly reduces my choices

[Jeff]

If anyone wants to trade a backhoe for a 71 mustang, I got the mustang! 

[EricR]

Another question-  should most of these newer machines  have self leveling loaders and return to dig as standard equipment or is it still optional. I'm assuming if so it is done hydraulically because you don't see any linkage and if so can you switch it on and off

[Bert]

Backhoe for a mustang. Hmm, I'm thinking I 'd much rather go joyriding than uncover a septic tank. :D

[Hilltop366]

I would pick a few models that you are looking at and price a few parts, the difference in price may surprise you. Some parts that I would look up are cylinder seal kits & hyd pump.

My BIL has a old JD backhoe, some of the part prices will give you a cold sweat.

None are cheap but I have usually found Case to be more reasonable.

[barbender]

Most I've been around have bucket leveling and a return to dig.

[EricR]

I have never bought a seal kit from a dealer I just send them to the hydraulic shop. Their parts and labor are probably cheaper then the kit alone from the dealer.  
As far as dealer specific stuff I guess I feel like some brands will get you on one thing and not the other and the other way around from a different brand.  With todays technology you've gotta pay to play I guess. Seems like there's no way around it.  One of the reasons I'm trying to consolidate/downsize and upgrade to one more modern machine   
I wouldn't mind a case but dealer support is probably the poorest in my area.  Deere and cat are most popular

[aigheadish]

This morning I plugged ForestryForum on the heavyequipmentforums.com so I feel obliged to reciprocate. On HEF there is a great backhoe section with tons of info and a bunch of people with lots of experience. That's not to say you aren't getting good advice here, as it looks like it'd be very similar advice over there and the folks here know the specifics of moving wood like maybe you are doing. HEF is great for maintenance questions and research also. 

I have a 2004 New Holland LB75B that I'm very pleased with, I can get an amazing amount of work done with it. I totally agree with those that mentioned finding a plumbed thumb and quick disconnect front loader would be incredible. I have forks on my loader bucket and they are great but very difficult to see with the bucket in the way, no loader bucket plus forks sounds like a dream. There is also, as mentioned, something to be said for moving it with a standard-ish truck and trailer. Mine was delivered with a decent sized dually (350/450 sized?) and a beefy trailer but I don't think I'd do that if it were me moving it. 

[EricR]

Trailering it shouldn't be a huge issue for me I have a deck over trailer. Did  your new holland want to do a wheelie when loading and unloading. I know the older backhoes like to on the beaver tail and can get you into some big trouble if you don't know to expect it .I don't have any experience with newer stuff. I was wondering if they were balanced better

[Riwaka]

From a logging/ forestry perspective, the TA might be prioritizing machine decisions in a potentially sub-optimal order. The bulldozer-type track loader has been relegated from the pro-level operations over the years. Even the rubber tire loaders require a mesh over the front window now.
Rubber tire loaders and bulldozer-type track loaders for log loading were relegated in some places due to the mud mess they made.
Probably possible to upgrade the guarding on a 455.Mesh over window example etc.
4-D Welding & Fabricating in Kamloops, BC, Canada

I sometimes wonder if the safety people want forestry machines to be like tanks with no windows or completely remotely operated machine operations.
What are the log loaders alternatives? truck mounted knucklebooms, mobile/ non mobile trailer type knucklebooms, large rubber tire base knuckleboom/ excavator conversions, track log loaders, etc.
If the environmental people turned up and they did not want any bulldozer track loaders, probably pick an old mobile trailer knuckleboom or old roadbuilder that can swap between a bucket and load grapple. 

A 307 = probably on budget $30-40K, 360 swing, single ram tilt bucket and hydraulic quick bucket changeover system can help. Add 2 or 3 feet to the dipper stick improves reach, blade. Downsides - not rops cab, generally getting a bit old, steel track U/C expense.
Caterpillar  307B
Cat 307B Excavator - YouTube

ASV U/C probably can be improved.
ASV MACHINES

Adding dual rear wheels to narrow rear axle non 4 wheel steer 4wd Backhoe loaders can 
improve stability in rural land use situations.

Mega dollar solution Hitachi ZX 225 - guarded up to load logs and still be used as an excavator. 
HITACHI ZX225 🎮🌳 PORTEUR FORESTIER TELECOMMANDÉ - YouTube





 

[aigheadish]

Did  your new holland want to do a wheelie when loading and unloading.

Absolutely did! It was a bit nerve-wracking when I wasn't expecting it. My first time unloading it, when it was delivered, I had to drive it off ramps that were not beefy enough for the task and it was scary to watch them bend as I pulled back too. My guess is that the mistake of the delivery guy, using too small a ramp, was that took every bit of profit out of the delivery.

[customsawyer]

I have hauled my different backhoes numerous times and they never seemed light on the front. If you keep your hoe tucked in tight to the cab and your front bucket as low as possible than it shouldn't be a problem. I've never had a 2wd so maybe that is the difference. If it is a problem I would just leave a scoop of dirt in the front bucket or load it backwards.

[tacks Y]

I have a JD 310D 4wd and the front of it is light.

[barbender]

2wd backhoes definitely get light in the front when loading, but it's not a big deal once you get used to it😊

[scsmith42]

Sc Smith were you just looking at cat or did you look at other brands?

I looked at all brands.  My equipment roster includes Cat, Dresser, International, John Deere, Ford, New Holland, Kubota, P&H, and Kioti.  I'm not brand loyal; but typically select the best value for my needs.
The 420dIT was a quantum leap better for my needs than anything offered by anybody else.  I like my John Deere equipment, but the versatility of the 420 makes it the last piece that I would sell.
The hydraulics are a beast.  There are times that I'm picking up logs so heavy that in order to keep the front tires on the rims I have to extend the backhoe all the way out (it's an extend-a-hoe) in order to serve as a counterweight.

[EricR]

I went to look at a case 580 SL today. It seems like a solid machine. It has 4400 hrs on it.  My one concern, and I'm unsure because it's the first I looked at but when I took the oil fill cap off , which is on the side of the block, it was spitting out a fair amount of oil at idle. It was getting onto the loader arm and a few drop got me in the face.  I should have taken a video but didn't think of it at the time.  Does that seem excessive. My understanding is it's a Cummins 4bt and I don't have much experience with them. Thanks

[barbender]

It depends on where the fill is mounted, I guess? It could be splashing back, it makes it hard to tell how much actual blowby there is though. The 4bt is a solid engine.

[EricR]

Well I think it's a 4bt. Case doesn't call it that but it certainly looks like one.  That's what I was thinking it seems to go right into the crankcase. All of the other engines I have it's either in the valve cover or in the timing cover.  

[BargeMonkey]

My 460s fill into a pipe off the side of the block, 6BT. A 4BT will run and run till they are just tired, if it hasn't been beat 4400hrs isn't probably half way there yet especially in a TLB. What did the stick look like when you pulled it ? Was it overfull to begin with ? 

[barbender]

I think Case called them a 4-390. Case and Cummins actually developed the B series engine together from what I understand 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Yeah case calls them 4-390 and 4t-390 depending if its a turbo out not. Same as a cummins 4b and 4bt.

Oil fill should be a short pipe going into the block above the pan rail i believe. Would seem unlikely to get oil splashing out unless the crankcase was way over full. 

The two 4bt's I own have that oil fill setup and I could run them all day long on level ground without the fill cap and not lose any oil...

[EricR]

Oil fill should be a short pipe going into the block above the pan rail i believe. Would seem unlikely to get oil splashing out unless the crankcase was way over full.

The two 4bt's I own have that oil fill setup and I could run them all day long on level ground without the fill cap and not lose any oil...

 
Here is a picture I found of a 580sl. Is that similar to your set up? If so your saying no oil should spit out of that fill at all. Thanks. 

[EricR]

Older topic but thought I would try to bring it back.  I still haven't pulled the trigger on a backhoe yet hoping prices would come down, but the kubota 121 mini excavator I have been using is leaving this month so the search is becoming more urgent. 
Wondering if anyone on here has experience with rubber tired excavators?  Do they get stuck as easy as they say?  I realize you won't cross a swamp with it and I may have to wait for certain times of the year to go some places.  Will it go everywhere my loaded 33,000 6 wheeler could go.  I have an eye on a cat m312.  I know it's not the way most think but I don't want tracks.  I do too much walking and most likely any machine in my budget will need an undercarrage sooner rather then later and I don't want to deal with that.  It would be something like this or a backhoe loader and I know I'll miss the 360 ability if I get a backhoe

[nativewolf]

Having used both I'd hate to go back to a backhoe.  What are you using it for at the moment?  How often do you need it?  Can you get by with a wheeled skid steer?  you can put steel tracks around those to help with traction on dirt or reduce footprint.  

[chevytaHOE5674]

The county has a Cat M312 and also a newer Deere wheeled excavator. I've pulled the machines out with my tractor more than a few times when they spin out on a grassy hill leading up/down from a culvert they maintain on my farm. Useless on anything but hard flat ground in my experience.

[EricR]

The county has a Cat M312 and also a newer Deere wheeled excavator. I've pulled the machines out with my tractor more than a few times when they spin out on a grassy hill leading up/down from a culvert they maintain on my farm. Useless on anything but hard flat ground in my experience.

Do they sink or just spin?  Would a set of chains help a lot in that situation.
I pretty much use the machine all the time but that might just be because it's what's available.  I could use a backhoe for pretty much everything I do, probably just not as efficiently when it comes to hoe work, and like you said I'm having a hard time going back after using an excavator.  I would love to go to a 8-9 ton excavator but with the prices of those it's not in the cards. And again, I like tracks but at the same time I don't for the traveling that I do
I'm not really a skid steer fan.  I pretty much work alone and I get into a lot of situations when loading/unloading using chains I can't get out of the cab-at least not safely.  I have a Deere 455 track loader I can use for that sort of stuff. I need something to dig with.
I keep trying to tell myself I'm primarily a logger/firewood guy not an excavation business and just get the backhoe and deal with its inefficiency. It might take longer but can get it done.
Also, finding a backhoe in the 30-35k  range with a quick attach on the loader and hydraulic thumb that doesn't have a rotted cab is not as easy to find as I would have thought.  I'm getting tired of driving 3+ hours to look at junk.

[chevytaHOE5674]

It just spins because there is solid road gravel underneath with 1/2" of grass over top. In cases where the ground is less than rock solid it sinks to the axles and needs to dig itself out or get towed out.

There's a reason you don't see many wheeled excavators other than municipalities where they like to drive them down the road at 20mph.

[BargeMonkey]

Neighbor next door to where I worked last spring had a newish cat wheel machine, came out of NYC for a song, he's put like 10k into it and I still haven't seen it move. I've been around a few, 595D wasn't a bad machine, but not off the hard stuff. 

 35k give or take you can find a decent 310SE, SG, or 410G or newer. Couplers are pricy but handy, the thumb is easy, almost all those machines came factory plumbed. The stuff is around in that price range not beat to death. 

[NE Woodburner]

I work for a company that has a lot of track excavators from mini to quite large. We also have a Cat M312. It is a good machine for road work where you are travelling on asphalt or concrete and don't want to damage the surface with tracks. It is our most underutilized excavator.

I do not think you would be happy using the M312 in many applications meant for a track machine.

[EricR]

I guess I'll have to go with a backhoe with the thought I can always sell it if it doesn't work out.
I was searching on the heavy equipment forum and someone in Europe talked about putting floatation tires on the wheeled machines and they would go anywhere but that seems like it would be an expensive education if it didn't perform as expected

I can't really wrap my head around these prices. Maybe fb marketplace isnt where I should be looking but I see deere D-G anything from 3,000 hrs to 8,000+ some obviously beat on some pretty decent (in the pictures)  and there all the same price.  I don't feel any D series unless very low hours and garaged it's whole life should be anywhere near the 30k mark but maybe that's just me.
For the technology you get in a D series, I sometimes think I should save a lot of money and just  pick up a clean ford 655 for less then half the price