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Bd ft price for milling. Manual mill

Started by Kwill, March 03, 2020, 12:31:06 PM

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Kwill

Since I bought a mill I've had several hit me up to mill their logs. I really dont have a idea what to charge. I have a manual push mill with a 20 inch capacity. I have a tractor to move logs. My mill is stationary so everything would be done at my place. Just trying to figure out what would be a fair price for myself and customers. Thanks for any help or suggestions
Built my own hydraulic splitter
Built my own outdoor wood stove
Built my own log arch
built my own bandsaw sawmill
Built my own atv log arch.
Built my own FEL grapple

KenMac

Check on local mills and get an idea of their rates. Set yours where you feel comfortable, all things considered. Board foot price covers customer.....hourly rate covers you. Not an easy thing to figure out and cover both. Not easy for me.
Cook's AC3667t, Cat Claw sharpener, Dual tooth setter, and Band Roller, Kubota B26 TLB, Takeuchi TB260C

Kwill

With a manual push mill it would be tough to charge by the hour.
Built my own hydraulic splitter
Built my own outdoor wood stove
Built my own log arch
built my own bandsaw sawmill
Built my own atv log arch.
Built my own FEL grapple

SawyerTed

Start with what it costs you to mill on average.  Include everything fuel, oil, lube, blades,  tools, support equipment costs etc.  Then add a bit of profit that you are comfortable with.  Basing your rates on what others charge is a fine way to lose money and saw for nothing.  I love it but can't saw for nothing. 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

kelLOGg

I charge $0.30/bdft on my manual mill. Its a hobby that pays for itself.
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

dogbo2013

I also saw as a hobby and after sawing with a manual mill for the past couple of years, I came up with a simple pricing fee. My goal is to be fair to the client and cover my time and expenses. I price the job by the board foot or by the hour depending on the job.  Charging by the hour protects you but can quickly outprice your services. Charging by the board foot protects the client but puts the burden on you to produce a product. I know some may disagree, but I decide after completing the job depending on which way works out the fairest for the customer. I explain this to the customer upfront and I have not had any complaints.

-I ask $65/hour or $1.00/board foot for a small job. 
-I charge $20/blade if I hit any nails or debris. 

It's that simple. It covers the cost of my time, mill, fuel, blades, parts, and wear/tear.  Remember, it's your time and your mill, If you want to reduce the price after committing to a certain price, you are free to do so. Also, feel free to say no to those who try to "low ball" you and think you are asking too much. Most reasonable people understand what it takes to take create lumber from trees.
GMB

SawyerTed

Occasionally I get, "so and so charges less than you do.  Will you saw for what he charges?"  My answer is "get so and so to saw for you and do it quickly."  Two thirds of the time they come back to me because they realize so and so works at a pace that matches that he charges.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Southside

I am at $0.45 / BF, that covers my costs if I am sawing alone or with a crew of 3 behind me as production increases accordingly.  A 1x10 sawn by me would not look any different than one sawn by you so the value to the customer is the same.  Don't low ball yourself, it's easy to do.    
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Patrick NC

I've got a small job next weekend for about 1000bf of white pine to be cut into 1x material. I am charging $40 per hour plus $20 a blade for metal. He is to provide labor help. 
Norwood HD36, Husky 372xp xtorq, 550xp mk2 , 460 rancher, Kubota l2501, Case 1845 skid steer,

Kwill

Built my own hydraulic splitter
Built my own outdoor wood stove
Built my own log arch
built my own bandsaw sawmill
Built my own atv log arch.
Built my own FEL grapple

caveman

When we had a manual mill we charged $50 an hour with one of us running the mill and the other pulling the canthook, off bearing or stacking.  We worked like rented mules and tried to give the customer a lot of work and product for their money.  On cedar and most other species under 14", I am not sure the manual mill was any slower than our lt-50.

The next time you are sawing for yourself, you may consider keeping track of your production per hour and determine an acceptable rate to charge on an hourly or BF basis.
Caveman

thecfarm

Be careful of the tire kickers. Seem like I got some of them. I gave them some high price to saw. I did not buy the mill to saw for others. So if the word got out that I charge too much, than I have more time to do what I want instead of listening to them about how much I should charge.  ;D   ::)
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Resonator

I charge hourly rate for my sawing with my manual mill. I tell customers up front my rate, with a one hour minimum charge. I also charge for metal strikes, and if they want stickers for their lumber. I specialize in small jobs and work by myself. If I was doing a large job with help, I would consider being paid by the Bd Ft.
Under bark there's boards and beams, somewhere in between.
Cuttin' while its green, through a steady sawdust stream.
I'm chasing the sawdust dream.

Proud owner of a Wood-Mizer 2017 LT28G19

jeepcj779

Does anyone run the pricing both ways? Calculate the charges using an hourly rate, then calculate using bdft price and fees (oversized/undersized log fee, setup fee, mileage fee, etc.), and average them to come to final price. Ideally the two fee structures would come to about the same total.

Ianab

The 2 different fee structures can work, but you have to agree with the customer before you start. 

You can give a bd/ft charge if they have "normal" logs, properly staged, normal sized boards, etc because you know that you can saw around "X" bd/ft per hour. They know what their boards cost, and you have a pretty close estimate of what you earn per day.  

But for "unusual" jobs? Well you know what you would usually earn per day (see above), divide that by 8(?), and you have an hourly rate. So if they want you to saw chopsticks / cookies / anything weird, then you get paid for your mill time at about the same rate. 

As long as at the end of the day you have made a sensible profit.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

scsmith42

A similar question was posed several years back, with a lot of thoughtful discussion.

My response is #22 for some perspective on what to factor in to your analysis as to what to charge.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=80992.msg1234156#msg1234156
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Kwill

Quote from: Ianab on March 04, 2020, 11:57:56 PM
The 2 different fee structures can work, but you have to agree with the customer before you start.

You can give a bd/ft charge if they have "normal" logs, properly staged, normal sized boards, etc because you know that you can saw around "X" bd/ft per hour. They know what their boards cost, and you have a pretty close estimate of what you earn per day.  

But for "unusual" jobs? Well you know what you would usually earn per day (see above), divide that by 8(?), and you have an hourly rate. So if they want you to saw chopsticks / cookies / anything weird, then you get paid for your mill time at about the same rate.

As long as at the end of the day you have made a sensible profit.
How good do you reckon those cedar chopsticks would work😆
Built my own hydraulic splitter
Built my own outdoor wood stove
Built my own log arch
built my own bandsaw sawmill
Built my own atv log arch.
Built my own FEL grapple

Chuck White

If the charges/bf in this area ever reached $.30 or higher most people would not have their logs sawed, they would go to the local Amish mill and buy their lumber for $.43/bf!    ;)
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: jeepcj779 on March 04, 2020, 11:01:16 PM
Does anyone run the pricing both ways? Calculate the charges using an hourly rate, then calculate using bdft price and fees (oversized/undersized log fee, setup fee, mileage fee, etc.), and average them to come to final price. Ideally the two fee structures would come to about the same total.
I don't run a manual mill but my price structure is as described - bf for most cases but hourly for small, crooked, short, specialty (Quartersawing), etc. I tell the customer up front. In some cases I have run both and said "These logs I'll saw by the bf but this big log you want quartersawed will be hourly." I have never had an issue. I have said repeatedly on this forum "All pricing methods are fair as long as both parties understand and agree to them before sawing starts."

   The other fees you mention such as mileage and blade damage and such apply whether bf or hourly sawing.

Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: jeepcj779 on March 04, 2020, 11:01:16 PM
Does anyone run the pricing both ways? Calculate the charges using an hourly rate, then calculate using bdft price and fees (oversized/undersized log fee, setup fee, mileage fee, etc.), and average them to come to final price. Ideally the two fee structures would come to about the same total.
I have been recently, but I don't average them, I charge which is more.  The issue with using different charging methods is getting it where it sounds too complicated. Usually want to describe charging in advance, usually in a phone call.  Figuring out how to keep it simple but appropriate for each job is the issue.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

SawyerTed

I agree that if rates seem too complicated, customers won't get their logs milled.  A potential customer contacted me a couple of days ago with the age old question - "how can you charge by the board foot if a 6x12 takes fewer cuts than three 2x12s. It's the same board feet but the 6x12 costs the same?"

I explained that handling a 6x12 is very different than handling thee 2x12.  I further explained that I usually use my hourly rate.  If a customer ants a board foot rate, I can do that.   Either way, I believe in most routine sawing jobs, I can exceed 200 bdft per hour and $/hour is the better deal for them. 
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Brucer

In Cdn dollars: $0.75/BF or $75/hr (by the hour meter), whichever is less. Every time I hit metal, the customer pays for a new blade. That's on an LT40 hydraulic.

The BF price tells he customer the maximum he/she will pay. The hour price gives the customer some incentive to make the job go faster -- supply a helper, stage the logs properly, etc.

Most customers end up paying $0.35 to $0.45 per hour by the hourly rate.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

stavebuyer

Quote from: Brucer on March 15, 2020, 12:55:32 AM
In Cdn dollars: $0.75/BF or $75/hr (by the hour meter), whichever is less. Every time I hit metal, the customer pays for a new blade. That's on an LT40 hydraulic.

The BF price tells he customer the maximum he/she will pay. The hour price gives the customer some incentive to make the job go faster -- supply a helper, stage the logs properly, etc.

Most customers end up paying $0.35 to $0.45 per hour by the hourly rate.
I really like the "lesser of the two" concept on several levels. Hourly the customer understands 8 hours=$$ and guarantees the sawyer what he needs for compensation. Good logs and efficient setup rewards the well prepared customer with a lower per unit cost. The more common "either or" can be harder for a customer to evaluate exactly what he is choosing between. 

caveman

I like the bf and hourly price structure as well but I generally start the stop watch on my phone when I begin unloading their logs and stop it when their lumber is loaded.  I do not want to be financially penalized for washing the mud packed bark off dragged logs, chainsaw trimming limb stubs in order to get them to the YH definition of a log, changing blades due to metal strikes, or educating the customer on proper air drying techniques .  

 
Caveman

Brucer

Everything is a trade off. I didn't want to be in a situation where another customer came along and I had to take a brief break from sawing the first customer's logs. Even if I remembered to "stop the clock", there's always that question hovering in the customer's mind ... "Did I end up paying for him talking to someone else?

The points caveman raises all have to be considered in your pricing model. I've always made it clear to customers before they arrive that they are responsible for unloading the logs. I also tell them that if their logs have limb stubs sticking out, I won't let them unload them until the stubs are trimmed (and not with my chainsaw). And I tell them if there's too much mud on the logs for my debarker to handle, I'll be cleaning them while the engine is running ;D.

The customers know in advance what they will pay if I hit metal, rocks, etc. No debate about whether I can salvage the blade or not. And my price is a bit higher than the delivered cost of a blade -- high enough to pay me for the 5 minutes of sawing time that I lose when I change a blade.

I've never been afraid to change my policies (such as trimming limb stubs), but I never change something  in the middle of a job. If I lose money on that one job, too bad for me. Lesson learned, change the policy for future work.

One important point about the "lesser of two options" method of pricing. It applies to the entire job. I had one customer who wanted me to apply it to each log I sawed ::) -- not going to happen.

The most important lesson about your system of pricing is one I learned from Tom years ago: keep it as simple as you can.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

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