A lumber grader was at the mill grading some ash that is going for export. Standard NHLA grading is being used.
The grader states that 10% of the boards can be a scant 6" and still pass for FAS. So, I said do you mean 10% of the boards or 10% of the 6" boards. He says its 10% of the boards.
After a few I don't think so, he says he can prove it from the grade book. He pulls up this part of the book as his proof:
Ninety percent of the minimum widths mentioned in all grades of
lumber shall be full width; the remaining ten percent may be up
to 1/4" scant in width. This rule also applies to each stock width
and to any specified width.
I told him that I thought that statement backed up my claim. His proof was that if he had 10 6" boards laying out that one of them could be scant.
I said that I agreed, but if I had 10 random width boards laying out and 2 were 6", could any of them be scant? He didn't answer. But, he did tell me that he has been grading that way for the past 28 years and that's the way he was taught in Memphis by the NHLA.
I still think I'm right. Any other opinions?
A man is always right ....... if a woman says so. According to my wife. I dont know nothing about grading but yours sounds more right if you only have 2 boards versus 10.
Reading that rule for the first time here so take this as a completely uneducated response... ::)
But it sounds like ten percent of the total boards graded can be scant regardless of the mix of dimensions.
I read it to say that 10% of any minimum width, ie 6" for FAS, can be scant.
The way writtenI understand it to be 10% of only the minimum width boards.
Ron's correct. The other fellow has misinterpreted the rule. The rule is very clear that 10% of the 6" pieces can be scant, not 10% of the total pieces.
Both of my grandpa's owned mills so I have been around the hardwood lumber business all my life, and you can't imagine some of the crazy things I've had graders tell me. I've had graders tell me the same thing. I've also seen graders put a their crayon mark over a pin knot that they didn't want to hurt the grade, but that's another story.
10% of min width, the way it was when I went to school.
I agree with Ron and others too.
Seems the widths (for FAS) wider than 6" are random width, and "scant" can't happen to them. ::)
But cutting splitting hairs with the rules is a game of words sometimes. :) :)
Maybe his check grader will step in here. He is grading in favor of the seller, seems like.
Inspectorwoody might chime in here.
Grading rules are a little fuzzy aren't they?
I like my method..."this one looks like crap, lemme cut that nasty bit off...THAT'S better!"
Dead on Ron 10% of min widths
Chico
Thanks guys. I told him if he's buying that way, it didn't bother me.
Right on Ron! I would sell to him that way as long as he wants to buy and can pay the price. I agree with you he is misinterpreting the rule book. His example to you even verifies what you are saying. However I know it is difficult for some of us to admit we are mistaken. :D
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on June 17, 2009, 05:44:44 PM
Ninety percent of the minimum widths mentioned in all grades of
lumber shall be full width
Now, does this mean if you call the minimum size of 6" for the run of lumber your sawing, 90 % have to be at least 6", but some may be 6-1/4", but none under 6"?
Quotethe remaining ten percent may be up
to 1/4" scant in width.
and the remaining 10 % can be 5-3/4"?
Or is the minimum width for FAS 6" in the rule book and other grades have a minimum width as mentioned in the book?
Leave it to beaver to make it complicated. :D
I can't give an opinion without the book to see the context of the statement or preamble.
Yer right Donk. 6" is the minimium width for FAS. Other grades have a different minimium. 3" or wider for the other grades, but only 5% can be 3". Real clear? :D :D :D :D :D
I've often wondered how that 10% rule works in real life. The tally sheets where I sold were pretty straight forward...I don't know how a inspector would keep track. They get in an unknown amount of lumber...do they keep track of each board that is a little scant...they would also have to keep track of each board right at 6"?
Or maybe they get 1,000 bf of random width lumber all FAS but end up with 100 board foot a little scant...could this be where the guy was coming from?
Maybe this could be a question for the Chief Inspector to clarify for us...the NHLA used to have a forum for just these type of questions.
Here it guys! ;)
I ran across this post last night and even though I've inspected lumber now for 8 years,I'll admitt I questioned this one.
So I shot an email to a former classmate of mine who is now the instructor in Elkins,VA for the NHLA.
This is his quote from the e-mail:
QuoteIt's 10% of the 6" boards in a load not 10% of the load. For example, if you had a load of 10,000 BF of green FAS/F1F and there was 3,000 BF of 6" boards (bds that are 5 3/4" to 6 1/2") you would be allowed 300 BF of boards that are scant of 6" NOT 1,000 BF which would be 10% of the entire load. It always surprises me how many folks misunderstand this rule.
:)
Woody, that is pretty much what I thought, but, if I was standing on a chain, looking a 10K, I am not sure I could remember how many boards were that close.
Thanks Inspectorwoody.
Great to have you on the forum. :)
Seems this rule would come into play mainly when/if a re-inspection happens, and not so much when inspecting lumber the first time.
In my earlier days of sawing I thought I might have a little problem with this. When rules get tight, like in the current market, it can become a factor. Especially if you are running small logs, like a lot of mills do.
To help offset the problem, I have changed my target size on the 6" to 6 1/8". That gives me a little bit of play for the log to spring. It also gives me a little more meat on my pallet stock and makes a more marketable product.
If you grade enough you can look at your taly sheets and you'll be pretty close When I was grading full time I could tell you within 500 ft or so the mills cut that day and the % of common and better
Chico
The only time we tally on the line is when we buy green from other mills. Than we have to re-inspect for grade and footage.
Our everyday production is block scaled out of the mill.
As Ron stated,the markets right now have everyone running a tight ship and we are no exception.
The rule book is simply a guide. This industry is driven by the customer. What the rule back says is OK, isn't with most customers.
We have been cutting some special order 6/4 Walnut. The customer sent us 3 pages of their rules and than followed up with a mill visit while we we're cutting the first run. From paper to in person, there was some give to the tight rules.
Ron,
Are you guys an almost wane free mill?
No, I put wane in whenever I can. I saw and have a vertical edger. We also have a horizontal edger to spruce up boards that need it. I usually try for a 6" opening face, and will edge the board for 6". If it has too much wane, it will either grade a 1 Com or they will re-edge it and still make a 1 Com.
We try to go to an end user whenever we can. Usually, they don't want things edged as hard as some of the wholesalers. They get a little more waste, which they use to fuel their kilns. But, they feel they get better yield, and its a more responsible way to buy wood.
I don't chase low grade lumber. Our alternative market is casket, but I can cut #2 and #3 red oak logs, and the lumber grade yield will be 50% F1F and btr. 2 Com will only be about 10-15%. I do get more blocking, but the price is better than sawing into boards.
Been a day or two since I had to grade all day Inspector Woody. I like the method of cubing the packages makes it much easier than than a bd tally
Chico