50 million barrels of oil a day

[Cedarman]

Read in the paper this morniing that Brazil is using tremendous amounts of ethanol in their cars.  They have an infrastructure that supports ethanol. AND THE ARTICLE SAID IT WAS 1/2 THE PRICE OF GASOLINE!

[Ron Wenrich]

Brazil started that back in the 70s, when the oil prices went sky high.  We should have done the same.  Instead, we kept with oil.

Brazil has a good resource in sugar to fuel the ethanol plants.  They also didn't go the route of having gasohol.  They converted some of their fleet over to run on ethanol.  You don't need the same quality of fuel.  

Ethanol can be made from a wide variety of crops.  We don't have much sugar cane, but we do have sugar beets.  

My understanding of ethanol is that it is used as an octane booster.  No one would pay the extra price for gasohol, so they just changed the name to premium.  You don't see gasohol at all in my area.

[Buzz-sawyer]

 ethanol suffers from what people in his field call an "input-yield problem": "About 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol,"

Consider this: Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce versus about 95 cents for a gallon of gasoline. And that doesn't include other costs associated with ethanol production, including soil depletion, corporate subsidies, and price hikes at the grocery store resulting from increasing the amount of agricultural land devoted to energy production.

Here's another way to look at it,  :P

 "If all the automobiles in the United States were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, a total of about 97 percent of U.S. land area would be needed to grow the corn feedstock. Corn would cover nearly the total land area of the United States."

And yet another way: "The average U.S. automobile, traveling 10,000 miles a year on pure ethanol (not a gasoline-ethanol mix) would need about 852 gallons of the corn-based fuel. This would take 11 acres to grow, based on net ethanol production. This is the same amount of cropland required to feed seven Americans."
By John J. Miller

[Fla._Deadheader]

  All the info that Buzz has posted is pretty accurate. However, Ron hit the nail on the head. There is enough manure to nourish the ground, along with high Nitrogen cover crops, to grow all the sugar beets AND cane, be it sugar cane OR sorghum cane, to supply the fuel for the cars.

  I know of 1 guy alone, in NJ, that has several small farms, where he makes over $250,000.00 PER YEAR, to NOT grow anything. His land is in the Soil Bank Project, with the Fed. Govt. (us) paying him. There is plenty of land to grow what we need, BUT, HYDROGEN is a more viable option. ONE source of energy is not enough. It will take various forms to meet our demand.

  The Ethanol vs Gasoline comparison is OK, for comparison. Remember when the Auto manufacturers complained about the Alcohol eating away at the gaskets and rubber? seals in carbs, back when the Alcohol became popular??? Guess what the high dollar race cars run on, METHANOL, WOOD Alcohol. If they get 5 miles to the gallon, at 200 MPH, what could you get at 55MPH ???

  Until the govt. or actually big business gets ready to cash in on Alternative Energy, this country will be the last to become independent of crude oil.

[Buzz-sawyer]

My point is this, these agrarian solutions are at best partial solution, meaning, they can provide some small part of our CURRENT energy needs........The key is to THINK outside the box. :P :P
Meaning, to see , beyond what exists, those things that do not yet exist, will, one day....Due to some dreamers idea.
And I gurantee that it will be so very simple...that it will be complex.... ;)
Meaning, that, all the energy we need to run everthing in existence is ALREADY right around us as we speak...
it is a simple matter of using what we have....we know hydrogen combust cleanly and exists in nature in limitless supply, BUT conversion still escapes us.....(We can do it but not efficiently)
What about using the momentum of the earth s rotation, or gravitional energy in conjunction with solar heat  (RIsing heat...pulling gravity when night comes or large scale closed loop evaporation cycle power generation....or Sterling cycle power.............ENDLESS possibilities.....The oceans cooling and heating, the waves, .....
I like hydrogen cause it fits into our current infrastructure.........(Meaning internal combustion motive power plants)
How bout solar means of hydrolisis???

[Tom]

Buzz the answer isn't in the use of Alcohol as a fuel.  Like you say, we have to think outside of the box.   At 1.73 a gallon, perhaps the Government should consider subsidizing the raw product directly to the population.  I figure that copious amounts of the stuff will curtail any need that the population has to travel so the use of automobiles, and probably internal combustion engines altogether, will deminish to the point of fuel not even being a question, much less a problem.

Those who do decide to drive will not be with us too long so that will decrease the need for internal combustion even further.

Corn and beets are  a pretty good foodstuff and cane makes a good desert so there shouldn't be much use for farming  any other products.   Vegetarianism is the modern Woo Woo to health anyway so it should make a lot of people, PETA included, happy.

It would also cure our nations most dreaded disease, Fat. There has to be something to alcohol that combats it because I've not seen too many fat drunks.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Or use the Lipo-Suctioned fat from rich  sedintary people of the world to produce High Grade biodiesel fuel to off set thier consumtion of freely available corn mash liquor..... :D :D :D

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Just got back from a visit with Mr. Jeeves.

  Here are the AVERAGE yields per acre in tons of a crop and the equivalent gallons per ton. This is only for REDUCING dependency of oil.

  Corn----100 bushel per acre----5600# per acre = 42 gallons
  Sugar Beets-------------------------8 tons per acre = 160 gallons
  Sugar Cane--------------------------15 tons per acre =195 gallons
  Potatoes------------------------------10 tons per acre =280 gallons

  The alcohol is 180 proof, or, 90%. 160 proof is all thats required in an engine. SO, add water ;D ;D

[shopteacher]

Would that be branch water, Harold?

[Fla._Deadheader]

Any water. ;D ;D

[beav]

  I wonder how those yields would work out growing an oil type crop for biodiesel- like soybeans or something.
  Also, how efficient is the convertion of electricity to hydrogen? Would this be more efficient as storage than lead-acid batteries?

[Buzz-sawyer]

Converting electricity to hydrogen is way inneficient.....losses far excede lead acid battery storage....unless the electric energy is free like from .........the sun...still a LOT of losss :'(

[Paschale]

Or use the Lipo-Suctioned fat from rich  sedintary people of the world to produce High Grade biodiesel fuel to off set thier consumtion of freely available corn mash liquor..... :D :D :D

Pass the cheesecake, Buzz!  Gotta put on some pounds for the good of the country!   :D

[EdK]

It would also cure our nations most dreaded disease, Fat. There has to be something to alcohol that combats it because I've not seen too many fat drunks.

Hmmm... I've got one dollar in my pocket. Should I buy a sandwich or a bottle of Ripple?  ;D

[DanG]

 :D :D  You'd be hard pressed to buy either of them for a buck, these days.