timber harvest

[schambers]

Hello all, I am new to this board and have a few questions some of you may have the answers to. I own 45 acres of woods in Butler, PA and have been thinking about a timber cut. The quality of my forest varies but through out the property there are some nice trees. I am also going to have some reclimation work done by the state which would require a clear cut of about 8 to 10 acres. My question is should i try to find a forester or just get a bid from a local logger?
 

[mesquite buckeye]

Welcome schambers. With the property size it will likely be a tough one. Especially if there isn't that much ready to cut and of unknown quality. You might call your state forestry dept. Lots of them will have a forester visit your place at least once for free. At least they might give you advice about the condition of the forest and offer suggestions.

[Ron Wenrich]

PA works a little different than that.  Consultants routinely have sales on land much smaller than 45 acres, and even smaller than 10 acres.  45 acres would even be nice sized sale. 

Getting the state to do any type of work has been out of fashion for a very long time.  There are very few service foresters, and they can only put in a few days a year for a landowner.  Also, there's a waiting list.  What they do is refer you to a list of foresters.  Some on the list are industrial foresters, some are consultants.  There are many that would be interested in doing the work.  You can get the list by contacting the local forestry office.  To give you a start, here's the state directory:  http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/directory/districtoffice/index.htm

Let several foresters walk through your property and give their recommendations.  This shouldn't cost you any money.  Consultants will bid out work and charge a commission.  Company foresters do the work for "free", but the stumpage price would be lower.  You have to decide which is better.  Sometimes the consultants work is better, sometimes not.  Whichever vendor you chose, you should have payment up front before work begins.  Also, you will need contracts. 

Before talking to any foresters, have a good idea what you want for the future of your forest.  If you're looking to improve quality of your stand, cutting all the nice ones may not be in your best interest.  Have a plan before you talk to a forester - consultant or industrial.  Talk to several foresters before you do anything.

[schambers]

Thanks to both of you for your reply. I have recently had a logger walk my property and mark some trees for harvest. We marked 65 trees, 40 were red maple, 23 were cherry, and 2 were oak. The biggest cherry was 20 inches, maple 25in and oak 30in. (all measurements took into consideration what would need to be cut off to square the log) all trees were over 12inches and most were 16 to 22in.. He gave me a bid that avereged out to be 82$ per tree. I know its hard to say without seeing the trees but that seems to low to me. Any thoughts on that average? There are more trees on the property that are that size, I just wouldn't let him mark them.

[chester_tree _farmah]

U should get a forester to at least walk it with you to be safe. Especially now that the trees are marked. I would think u would want a contract and get paid by percent of the wood sales. The more he gets for the wood the more u both get. Win win. But keep in mind the logger has a lot of overhead and expenses. Just my opinion. 

[schambers]

Yes I agree with the forester idea, already respecfuly told logger i am not gonna let him cut it. Didn't want to disapoint but felt like he was taking advantage of me. I know they have many exspenses and the work is hard work but I ran some numbers through a board ft calculator and used bd. ft. prices that the logger told me and things just don't add up for me. He indicated there is a customer price per bd. ft. and a mill price per bd. ft. so i figure his profit is already built in to the operation.

[chester_tree _farmah]

Never heard it that way. Customer price and mill price but if u know both u know your percent. If u do % u should get to see the scaling slips so u know what he got paid. I would be hesitant to agree to a set price up front. Even when foresters do a stocking estimate it is not an exact science. U really don't know how much is there and what it will grade out to until it is down and bucked. U did the right thing.

Things may be done different down there though. I am in Maine. My wife grew up in Carlisle.  :-)

[chester_tree _farmah]

Oh and trees should be marked down on the base so the paint is there after the tree is taken. How else do u know if more was harvested than should have been? Especially if u do go flat price. Just saying.....

[Ron Wenrich]

Percentage sales aren't the way to go, in my opinion.  You're relying on getting a logger that has not only good harvesting skills, but also good marketing skills.  If they can't make any money on a piece, they'll let it lay or let it stand.  Not a good recipe for any type of quality management work.  You'll end up with a high graded stand.  At least with a lump sum bid, you will be paid for the piece that is left lay or let stand if its part of the sale.  The state sells many millions of feet of timber every year.  They do it with a lump sum bid. 

Customer price vs mill price is simply the price the landowner receives for stumpage and the price the logger receives for logs.  The stumpage is always lower because the logger puts value added in the form of cutting, processing, and delivering. 

You could cut out the logger and sell directly to a mill.  They would subcontract the logger, and all logs goes to one mill instead of spread around.  A lot of timber gets sold that way. 

The price doesn't really look all that bad on paper.  But, there is no guarantee that it is what it will end up, as its only a sales pitch at this point.  65 trees on 45 acres looks to be cutting the best trees you can find.  Did that include the clearcut on the 8 to 10 acres?

[chester_tree _farmah]

Not to quibble but isn't that why we have foresters and written contracts? Foresters to over see the cut and be sure the plan is followed? Prevent high grading? Leave the stand in good shape and help prevent those behaviors? Mark trees no matter what grade? Contracts with penalties for shoddy half baked work and land destruction?

Also around here prices are pretty darn close between buyers.

Just thinking out loud. :-)

[chester_tree _farmah]

Shambers. Check out this thread. Another land owner in pa is going through this too. Not sure if u are close. Sounds like this is his second go around. Maybe helpful to you to message him?

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,74802.0.html

Cheers.

[schambers]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. lots of good info here. Ron to answer your post from 4-24 no i am not taking all the best trees, probably the best maple and some of the best cherry but i have many oaks red and white, and cherry that i am trying to save till the next cut or longer. As for the clear cut we did no plan for that when i spoke with logger, its part of a reclamation project and just got word from the state that we can move forward on tree removal. most of that area is large quaking ash or aspen. They had offered 100$ per truck load for any aspen 10in and above but now area will need clear cut. Long term plan for me at 42 years old is to harvest only what i need to improve my stand and potentialy have two or three better harvests in my life time.

[schambers]

Chester, thanks for the advice. Im two far away from that guys location to use his logger. I would love to have a logger I could trust but finding the right guy would be luck. The more i talk about it and read the posts the more I believe a forester is the way to go for me. Im not doing this just for the most $$ i can get but also don't want to give things away. What does high grading mean?? Taking only the best trees?

[chester_tree _farmah]

Sounds good. Yes that pretty much sums up high grading. Taking the best high value trees all at once.

[schambers]

Not knowing much about Forestry i guess its easy to fall in to high grading. My problem is I don't really have any idea how long i could or should let a tree grow before its time to cut. I marked some of my best cherry at 22 inches, just not sure if they would hang on another 10 to 15 years for another harvest. I a bow hunter too and the right forester could probably help me improve timer quality and whitetail habitat at the same time.

[deere540]

Schambers, please get the advice of a professional forester before you cut anything.  You local state forester should be able to give you a list of foresters that can help you out.  Get to know a few of them, ask them for references, ask to visit some of their previous work,etc.  Most are proud of their work, and would be happy to show you previous jobs.  My parents property was high graded when I was a kid, it's taken almost 40 years to get it back!!!!  They took the best trees, and left the rest.  Consider having a management plan written for your property. You may want to harvest more timber in the future to gain financially and to improve wildlife habitat, and a plan can help you achieve this.  Don't worry about the deer!!!  Deer habitat is not in short supply by any means. Don't let anyone rush you into anything, and enjoy your woods!!!

[chester_tree _farmah]

22 diameter or circumference?

You are correct.  I manage my lot for both wildlife and wood. Up here hemlock  groves are what keep deer alive in the winter due to the amount of snow we get. I keep the hemlock groves whole and thin them by a 1/3 max when I do cut them. I also keep a nice small ridge of mature red oak around for the acorns. I did take two nice Veneer grade Oaks out of it this winter but plenty more left.

Anyway. Sounds like you are on the right  track. I would definitely get a forester since u want to manage for the future and wildlife.

[Ron Wenrich]

There is no upside diameter that would indicate that its the maximum size it should be.  I've been in stands of oak where we averaged a diameter of 36" with the largest being 52".  Last year I was in a stand that had 60" oak.  Both of these stands were outside of Philladelphia. 

I drive around and look at stands that I have worked on in the past.  We made a habit of keeping a wide range of diameters, and based our marking of the health of the tree, not on size.  Other foresters and loggers have come in and taken all the large sawtimber that was left.  The thinking is always the same.  Cut it and knock the stand back to a pole or small sawtimber state.  In the process, the landowner has depleted his asset base.   Sometimes its better to thin the smaller sizes and allow the larger ones to grow.  Choose your forester wisely.

[GlennCz]

I know your situation exactly.  I have about 60 acres of timber that I owned since 97.  After i bought it I had a few foresters come in an looked at it.  Then I did nothing, I was frozen.  It has/had super nice timber on it.  Black Cherry and maple.  Then in 05 I was in the chainsaw shop and a logger walked in and I  ended up taking out 150,000 feet of timber in about 45 truckloads.  My logger has contacted me a few times to come back and I always wasn't ready, then a few weeks ago he said take a walk with me, and showed me the trees that really needed to be harvested.  He is back and the second load is going out in an hour.  All big huge cherry trees, shy of 4,000 bd feet.  Should be worth well over $4,000. 

It causes a lot of angst on which way is better, forester or logger.  I have very detailed records from my first cut and I know quite a lot about this business for an amateur.  But of course I know i'm a layman.   It's complicated to say the least and there are lots of ways to go wrong. 

There are lots of pluses to a forester.  The negative might be you lose the fun in working with your own logger, who is kind of a partner in the operation.  Of course that is for better or for worse. 

Are you good with excel?  I have a spreadsheet from my harvests I could email you.

[jwilly3879]

Second what Ron said, a larger tree will build volume faster than the smaller ones, increasing the asset at a better rate. Just like investing in a higher rate CD if you can find one.

[GlennCz]

. He gave me a bid that avereged out to be 82$ per tree. I know its hard to say without seeing the trees but that seems to low to me. Any thoughts on that average?

Average is an impossible concept unless you are comparing two very similar properties with the same type of culling/cut.  But saying that, in 2005 we harvested 950 trees, I got 85K, that's $90/tree.  Now the prices have changed a big, but when comparing 05 to now, they haven't changed much overall.  Prime X logs, the nice big cherries that aren't veneer dropped from 2400 to 1500 or something like that.  The 950 trees yielded 2400 logs.  I'm sort of a record keeping nut and now with the 2nd logging operation going on, I've completely reviewed my 1st set of records.  Realize though, that the third log up the tree might only be worth $10 at the mill. 

[GlennCz]

Second what Ron said, a larger tree will build volume faster than the smaller ones, increasing the asset at a better rate. Just like investing in a higher rate CD if you can find one.

This is true.  But the opposite concept is that many of the big ones are slowly dying inside and you don't always know it.  One of my big fat logs on the landing had red rot inside.  The center has a hollow spot, that decreases the value quite a bit.  The other big thing is the shake, it's where the base starts to split, so when they go to mill it it breaks apart.   For cherry you are hoping for veneer and getting multiple dollars per foot.  A 150 ft log could be worth $4/foot and mill pays $600 for it.  We even had some $6/ft logs.  SADLY!!!  Our best veneer buyers aren't around anymore.

On my first cut, i tried to leave many of the seemingly big healthy trees, because my property had never been logged since clear cut a century or so ago.  It's a judgement call, you certainly don't want someone taking all the good trees just cause they are worth it for them to cut down, when the tree could be growing a couple percent a year and hopefully timber prices are rising.  But of course if we have another bad recession, timber prices will plummet down. 

[chester_tree _farmah]

I see you two PA boys found each other after all. Good deal. :-)

[GlennCz]

I see you two PA boys found each other after all. Good deal. :-)

That's Hilarious!!!  I have a feeling that his property is similar to mine. 

[GlennCz]

Yes I agree with the forester idea, already respecfuly told logger i am not gonna let him cut it. Didn't want to disapoint but felt like he was taking advantage of me. I know they have many exspenses and the work is hard work but I ran some numbers through a board ft calculator and used bd. ft. prices that the logger told me and things just don't add up for me. He indicated there is a customer price per bd. ft. and a mill price per bd. ft. so i figure his profit is already built in to the operation.

I have no idea what mill vs customer price is.  The truck drops the logs on the ground and leaves.  The grader pays by grade and volume, (you take what he gives you, the logs are laying there!) and splits the money according to a percentage between logger and owner.  This business is all trust and reputation. 

For my harvest of 950 trees "we" got, in 2005
Cherry - 1.09/bdft
Hard Maple - .83/bdft
Soft Maple - .43/bdft

but every single harvest, every truckload, every tree, every property, every region is different.

[mesquite buckeye]

Second what Ron said, a larger tree will build volume faster than the smaller ones, increasing the asset at a better rate. Just like investing in a higher rate CD if you can find one.

This is true.  But the opposite concept is that many of the big ones are slowly dying inside and you don't always know it.  One of my big fat logs on the landing had red rot inside.  The center has a hollow spot, that decreases the value quite a bit.  The other big thing is the shake, it's where the base starts to split, so when they go to mill it it breaks apart.   For cherry you are hoping for veneer and getting multiple dollars per foot.  A 150 ft log could be worth $4/foot and mill pays $600 for it.  We even had some $6/ft logs.  SADLY!!!  Our best veneer buyers aren't around anymore.

On my first cut, i tried to leave many of the seemingly big healthy trees, because my property had never been logged since clear cut a century or so ago.  It's a judgement call, you certainly don't want someone taking all the good trees just cause they are worth it for them to cut down, when the tree could be growing a couple percent a year and hopefully timber prices are rising.  But of course if we have another bad recession, timber prices will plummet down.

That is the tough call. I have a lot of trees that are getting to be really nice heading into mid to high 20" DBH range. Lot of them are northern red oaks. My warning for wetwood is a little dark brown-black seepage at the junction of the double trunks or near the base of the stump on singles. That is my warning to cut them before the degrade gets too bad. The ones I have removed with this sign are stinky, but the shake was generally in the early stages still. They were more prone to collapse, checking and splitting than ordinary, but otherwise the lumber was ok. Anything starting to seep I will try to cut within 5 years. I don't need any clear side lumber hollow trees growing in my woods. That is the ultimate result if you wait too long. They start rotting faster than they are growing. Better to let new ones start after these go bye bye.  :-\

[chester_tree _farmah]

Yup and species can be weighed too. Red Oak tends to stay healthier and well formed to a larger size than some othersspecies. Soft Maple not so much. Poplar/Aspen go bad much sooner and sometimes look fine on the outside but will have started to rot in ther middle.

[jwilly3879]

We work mostly with EWP and we are leaving trees that are 16" dbh and clearing some of the smaller ugly trees around the nice ones. Trees with weevil damage are going as are the big ones. The mill really likes the nice smooth bark logs down to 8" but will also take the big (30"+) less desirable ones, just don't send a whole load of scrubbers. The leave trees should respond well with the lack of competition.

They are being marked by a forester hired as an independent by the LO and we are marketing the logs.  The landowner is happy with the work and stumpage he is receiving, it is much better than his last harvest on another section.

[Ron Wenrich]

All I'm saying is that it's on an individual tree basis.  I've seen the cookbook forestry where they tell you to use a certain diameter limit because that is where the economics are at.  But, that is always an average.  If a tree is showing outward signs of decline, then you take it.  If it is healthy, then you consider leaving it as a crop tree. 

A lot depends on your cutting cycles.  If you believe in diameter limit cutting, then you'll be harvesting every 30-40 years in our area.  If you believe in cyclical thinnings, you can cut that time in half or better. 

[SwampDonkey]

Some loggers are actual foresters. But the flip side is that many landowners, up here at least, think their loggers are all foresters. You will rarely see a landowner in this area call a forester for advice. They will talk up a storm with a logger though. The thing is, NB marketing boards provide price and mill specs to woodlot owners, so now they are expert woodland managers. ;)

[chester_tree _farmah]

Also if it is a thinning and the LO enjoys wildlife you should leave a few of those diseased trees here and there. They aren't worth much if they have heart rot anyway.

Latest studies show wolf trees are actually very attractive to wildlife.

[jwilly3879]

The EWP job we are cutting doesn't really fall into any category, it's definitely not a diameter limit cut, not really a TSI or a shelterwood either. It is more a combination of all of them, the worst are going first and then then the canopy is being opened up with the best trees left. Fortunately there are enough marketable trees being harvested that a little money can be made. It's definitely not make the most $$ right now. Future harvests are planned for a 15-20 year cycle. Hope I'm around to see the next one.

[chester_tree _farmah]

Sounds like crop tree management? Sorry what is ewp?

[thecfarm]

ewp,Eastern White Pine. Right in our woods.  ;D

[chester_tree _farmah]

Doh! U think I would have remembered that. Getting old can suck.

[thecfarm]

I never really heard of it until I got on here. All I ever hear is pine in this area and to the people I talk too.

[chester_tree _farmah]

True. It is the pine in Maine.

[schambers]

22 inches in diameter Chester...
Any one know the price per board ft for red maple or red oak?
Haven't had a chance to respond to posts recently but still reading them when I can.

[thecfarm]

chester,I should've put a plug in to the FF dictionary for the EWP. Go to the menu bar,starts out with Home,Help,Search,point your mouse to Extras,a drop down will appear, and the Forestry Forum Dictionary is there. Lots of other stuff in Extras too.

[chester_tree _farmah]

chester,I should've put a plug in to the FF dictionary for the EWP. Go to the menu bar,starts out with Home,Help,Search,point your mouse to Extras,a drop down will appear, and the Forestry Forum Dictionary is there. Lots of other stuff in Extras too.

Ahh very cool! Thanks cfarm!

[Remle]

schambers
Every state has some one that tabulates the information you are looking for, in PA it seems the Timber Market Report - Pen State Extension has the 2013 fall report out. You might want to check it out for your area.

[Ron Wenrich]

Timber Market Report of PA - 4th Quarter 2013  http://extension.psu.edu/natural-resources/forests/timber-market-report/reports/2013/2013-4th-quarter

These give ranges, and I'm not sure of the accuracy given how they sample.  Mill price numbers aren't very good as they only have a few in the sample.  But, it gives you an idea for your area.  Just remember that the extension uses International as a log scale.  Most loggers use Doyle, as that is how they most often sell logs.  It may vary out in your section of the state. 

[GlennCz]

22 inches in diameter Chester...
Any one know the price per board ft for red maple or red oak?
Haven't had a chance to respond to posts recently but still reading them when I can.

It's going to be very hard if not impossible for you to grade/price a tree yourself.  Is the middle rotted? You won't know until you cut it down.  It is perfectly straight w/o knots sticking out?  The butt log is the valuable one and will give you more than the other 2 or maybe 3 up the tree put together.  I would find the closest mill and get their price sheet, but that won't really help you in valuing your own timber, because you just can't do it.  (but you should still try!)

[SwampDonkey]

I know hardwood timber grows nicer down that way than way up here. Oh, we get a few nice ones, the average is not that great because of our climate and continual high grading for generations. Working with woodlot owner groups for 20 years reveals how few these gem logs there are, just a trickle of volume. Harvesting them just further high grades the forest. But I here of folks down there buying on spec on the stump all the time and with trees marked. Up here that kind of faith in the unknown (inside the tree) would either bankrupt a mill or seriously devalue our timber below the low value the industry up here have already created. Because the timber buyers would end up low balling it for a cushion in getting grade lumber. These days it's hardly worth cutting logs of any species unless we use the wood ourselves. Now the Irvings pretty much own all the forest they lease from the government, so it will only get worst. They now have a binding 25 year contract with the government. That is stirring up a big hornet's nest up here. Nothing will come of all the talk until there is enough people with no other choice but to march on the legislature. It has happened in the past. Just my daily ramble. ;)

[Ron Wenrich]

I know of many mills and loggers that are successful buying timber on the open bid.  When I was buying timber, we had to know our quality judgements, know how much we could pay for timber given our markets, and have a feel for what our competition would be willing to pay.  Sometimes you made out, sometimes you didn't. 

When I was selling timber, I often was amazed at how guys were bidding.  You could always tell someone who needed timber by the size of their bid.  I also remember a logger bidding on a sale.  They had been in business for several years, but never bid on timber.  They were the low bidder on the sale.  Their response was they never bid so high on timber, only to lose it.  It gave them a good education, and they started to get better as time went along. 

I also found that the guys with better equipment bid better on the timber.  They also did good jobs in the woods.  I always thought that was because they had better markets that they searched out, and were generally more productive.  Their operational costs were lower, and that allowed them to pay more for timber. 

[GlennCz]

22 inches in diameter Chester...
Any one know the price per board ft for red maple or red oak?
Haven't had a chance to respond to posts recently but still reading them when I can.

It's going to be very hard if not impossible for you to grade/price a tree yourself.  Is the middle rotted? You won't know until you cut it down.  It is perfectly straight w/o knots sticking out?  The butt log is the valuable one and will give you more than the other 2 or maybe 3 up the tree put together.  I would find the closest mill and get their price sheet, but that won't really help you in valuing your own timber, because you just can't do it.  (but you should still try!)

Please note,  I am only speaking of an amateur landowner like myself, not an experienced professional.

[SwampDonkey]

Our system up here favors the industrial players. They don't need wood off woodlots at all, they are not desperate to buy high to fill their needs. In fact the way price on crown works is based on a biased sample driven by what mills want to pay for wood to woodlot owners to begin with. The government does not sell wood by bids. They sell by volume and the money for product is based on this biased survey. The only fellows up here that bid it up are those loggers who are desperate for wood. Or are in better than average timber. Everyone knows the markets, we have marketing boards and that information is free for the taking. When they bid it up, their price at the mill gates does not rise, they need the cash flow. Some may have a mill contract through a broker, but that price is already set and the broker gets his cut to. Foresters, in a consulting role, is about non-existent. Forester as logger is common place.

[schambers]

Thanks again everyone for all this info. Been looking over the timber market report and just glad i decided to wait instead of letting the first logger take all my good trees. Im convinced that my wood lot has good potential and with the help of the right forester and some luck I will be able to grow some nice timber for future cuts. Talking with all of you and listening to your feedback has helped me to realize the direction I need to go. I have talked to a neighbor who was very happy with a forester he used about 5 years ago and I am waiting for some contact info from him. I have also been watching the progress/destruction of neighboring wood lots that said yes to the logger I turned down. It is a shame to see, but a blessing to me at the same time. Though they will never have another timber cut on thier lands for generations to come they are creating some high quality deer bedding areas on two sides of my land which will have plenty of acorns for those deer to eat. I will keep you posted on the results.