I thought ya'll might like to see a post on controlled or prescribed burning. I burned several planted loblolly pine stands today on my property to remove understory hardwood and pine regeneration. Here are a couple of the stands before burning. They are 19 years old:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/beforepic%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/hardwoodpic.JPG)
You need good firebreaks to keep the fire where it is supposed to be and not on your neighbor!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/firebreak2.JPG)
A drip torch is used to set the fire. There is a fuel mixture in the can. The fuel drips out on the burning wisk and a droplets of fire fall on the forest floor to ignite the stand.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/driptorch.JPG)
Here is my fellow forester, Mike, setting fire:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/setfire2.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/setfire.JPG)
More to come...........
Setting the backfire. Note the firebreak::
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/backfire.JPG)
The burn progresses:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/burn2.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/burn3.JPG)
It got pretty smoky!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/burn.JPG)
Here is my other helper, my bloodhound, Scarlet. She is a constant companion in the woods. Here primary job was to chase the rabbits flushed by all the activity. She did a great job 8).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/bloodhound.JPG)
After the burn:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/after.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/after2.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/after3.JPG)
We burned 3 stands today, about 25 acres before the rains came. I have two more to go!
Very cool..
Ilove and am a great respector of fires. Looks like a
very professional and orderly burn. Way to go. That
sure looks good.
Do you have to remove larger branches, trunks, etc
so it will burn out fast.?
Thanksfor the pics.
Thanks for sharing WDH. Looks like a nice stand of timber coming along. Maybe the smoke will even kill off some adult borers in the bark. Wishful thinking maybe on my part. Sure looks like a nice park. Was this a hardwood site before the plantation? The site reminds me of 35 year old red pine. ;D Your not concerned with nutrient loss?
No. Nothing was removed. However, the stand was reasonable free of large brush piles or big wads of debris. Regular downed dead logs and limbs are usually just left and burned through. A downed log may burn for a while (sometime a day or two), but that is not a problem. The key too, is managing the wind. You want the fire to back into the wind to keep it under control and not let it get too hot. If there is a lot of debris and you burn with the wind versus against it, the fire gets too much oxygen and will race away!! It will also get too hot and could scorch the pine needles of your crop trees. It can jump the fire line if it races away with the wind uncontrolled. That is why they call it a controlled burn!
You can start a back fire then move ahead a few yards and start another strip. Then, the part that burns with the wind quickly runs into the backfire it is facing, so things stay under control.
Keeping the neighbors happy can be a big problem. Smoke scares them and they don't like smoke blowing onto their property. That makes buring much problematic these days.
Swamp,
These are old field plantations. The best possible site for a plantation. Residual fertilizer and no hardwood competition. Planted in 1988 as part of the CRP program where the government incented landowners to place marginal agricultural land back into trees.
Nutrient loss is a concern. There is a loss of nitrogen thru volatilization from the fire. That hurts. However, some phosphorus and potassium become more available and provide an immediate benefit. The loss of nitrogen is bothersome. But, it is a trade-off to keep the early successional weeds and forbes that the wildlife like, otherwise the understory hardwoods shade everything out. That is why I am doing the burning. I got turkey, deer, rabbits, squirrels, raccoons, foxes, bobcats, lots of wild hogs (THE SCOURGES!!), quail, and a bunch of song birds. Maybe the occasional bear wandering thru as some are in the area.
I did fertilize one stand with nitrogen and DAP after the first thinning. I have not burned it yet, but really looks great. I hope to burn it in the next week or two before it gets too warm. That same stand was pruned to 18 feet 7 years ago (by me!! That was some job! That will put forearms on you!) Sgtmaconga got some drought killed trees from this stand to saw on his new TK 1220 for his horse barn. I am interested in seeing some pics of the lumber. Wide growth rings, but a higher proportion of latewood to earlywood than in normal management, so the density holds up pretty well.
A couple of thoughts. To me, it looks like fuel moisture was a little too high. I like a little bit taller flame run. Back in my serious burning days we wanted just a little scortch, help in removing lower branches. We worked the weather real hard, one year we burned nearly 10,000 acres, all of it intentional by the way. Good looking stands, apparently you have been on a burn schedule for a while.
We have a harder time burning in Texas, now. Insurance has gone out of sight, smoke control has gotten tighter and tighter, and haze over the major airports has been a booger bear.
I think brush control is more important than any loss of nutrients, particularly nitrogen. Pines can grow in sterile sand, not well, but live. All things being equal, the burn far out weighs the loss of nutrients.
Yes, this burn was on the cool side. I pushed to get it done today before a rain came in, but all in all, it turned out pretty good. I want to burn the next two stands a little hotter.
Burning 10,000 acres (and all of it intentional) is a huge job. Probably had many nights in the woods!
10,000 was back in my state forest service days, had a really good couple of crews, and received awards several years running for the amount of burn. This was back in the days after Smokey let up a little and we could finally get after some of the brush build up we had gotten over the years. burning was my favorite of activities, we could do more to transform a stand in a series of burns than any other practice. Now they tend to use herbicides, I still think fire is the best solution to many of the southern management problems.
I've got me one of them big red dogs- Otis . I can't wait till he grows up and stays out of mischief ( he's a year and a half ) . Bloodhounds are not the kind of dog that sleeps on the porch all day.
Tell the lady i said hy WDH. was eather of these burns where me and you walked?
Good looking stuff, WDH. Now, I've got something to heart of yours. :D ;)
Ahhh, now I see Ranger, that's why you always getting into my free matches. Firebug. :D
T. Ranger,
Now I have an expert to refer all my burning questions to! Here is the first one: If the fuel load is low, would you use a head fire to pick up the heat? Second, is it safe to mix gasoline with the diesel fuel for the torch (3 diesel to 2 gas in proportion is what I have been told) or do you have to use kerosene?
KCwoodbutcher,
Otis, I like that name. No, they are not slow and lazy dogs, that is a TV misconception. You can't slip off from them though. They will track you down!
Sgtmaconga,
Miss Scarlet says hello. She misses the logging! No, that was not one of the stands that we cut in. I am going to burn that one in about a week, though, when I get the right weather and wind direction so I don't smoke out the neighbors. How did the lumber from those pruned plantataion logs look after you cut them?
WDH, headfires can get you excited in a hurry, there are a few times I have used em, but, only after I have a good burn from the firelanes, and then to clean up the last part at the end of the day, or up the heat a little if the humidity comes up in the evening.
Be careful out there, I was the first state forester to receive a burning citation for a fire that got away from a crew when a local front blew up on them, I got the ticket cause I was the boss, and 40 miles away at the time! Not that me being there would have changed anything, one of the freaks of nature ya get now and then.
Mixture of fuels is a little dicey. To much of one or the other and the results can be disappointing or exciting. I usually mixed 3-2-1 the last one being burned motor oil. The mix has to be played with to get it right out of the drip torch. It should drip and burn without making you step back.
This is one of those things that you get from experience, not from talk around the stove over coffee. I have had folks pick it up and run with it without a problem. Then you got those that pick it up and cause you to lose your religion.
But hey, be careful out there.
My fire instructor taught 3:1diesel to gas. Rule number one was you had to mix your own. He picked up one that had been mixed for him and it was 3:1 gas to diesel. Yup, the results can be exciting.
Nice pics, 2nd the 3:1 diesel to gas for fire season, might want to go with 3:2 for wet season burning. Mix your own and be sure to label the can, it will screw up a pump (don't ask how I know this) :D. I rigged up a small propane tank to a pack frame and use a weed burner to get piles going earlier in the spring. Wish I had kept track of the acres I've burnt, but during control operations they don't really count for anything, they either work or not. Good Luck, BWW
3:2 way to hot for me. Don't make the mistake I did once, and mix fuel oil like diesel. That got exciting real quick, too. smiley_fireman_hat
#1 lumber in any market. i got all the grading done and started raising center beams. loft floor should begain next week if the weather is right.
Hi WDH,
You seem to be doing a good job. Some questions, of course: ;D
- What is the composition of that plantation?
- Were there some hardwood species, at least on ½ stand height prior burning?
- Did you manage to watch the fire by yourself only (excluding the dog)? Did anyone else help you?
Thanks!
I’м looking forward the upcoming reportages from the other plantations. 8)
Tonich,
The stands were planted Loblolly pine, Pinus taeda. The hardwood component was mostly Sweetgum (Liquidambar styraciflua), Water oak (Quercus nigra), Southern Red oak (Quecus falcata), Hophornbeam (Ostrya virginia), and Green ash (Fraxinus pennslyvanica). The tallest of the hardwoods was the Sweetgum. The hardwood was small, mostly less that 2 - 3" in diameter and 15 feet in height.
There were two of us burning. Myself and one other forester. I may burn again today if I can get a permit, however, the relative humidity is low, so the Georgia Forestry Commission may not give me a permit today.
Thank you, WDH!
I know Sweetgum (http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/DENDROLOGY/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=53), it is introduced in my country as a park tree. It looks very nice. I’ve just consulted with my dendrology, which claims that it is a valuable timber tree, with beautiful figure, excellent for furniture.
My thought is: Do you believe this could be an excellent spouse for your monoplantation?
Moreover, increasing growing stock, this would be a good regrowth – it will perfectly rush the overstory and increase pine’s height growth. At this age, pineries are tent to grow at height.
Of course, I do realize that it is extremely difficult to save this tree with all those fires. Anyway, I’m just sharing my thoughts.
Cheers!
PS. Which parallel is Georgia at?
Perry, Ga
Latitude: 32.45
Longitude: -83.73
Centreville, NB
Latitude: 46.50
Longitude: -67.80
;D
Tonich,
On this site, we consider sweetgum a weed. This is an upland site better suited to pine. The sweetgum, if left here, would not make a high grade tree. However, on a good bottomland hardwood site, sweetgum can make a very high quality sawlog.
I plan to thin these stands again in about 2 to 3 years. I prefer herbaceous understory because if is better for wildlife food. Sweetgum provides no valuable wildlife food. When the 2nd thinning is done, that will open up the canopy so that more light will reach the forest floor. I would rather that light produce herbaceous vegetation than more sweetgum!
Well, I finished burning today. Today was a perfect burning day with low humidity and light wind from the ideal direction for smoke management. The last stand that I burned is a 20 year old Loblolly pine plantation that was 1st thinned in 2000 and fertilized that same year. In the summer and fall of 2000, the stand was pruned to 18 feet using a manual pole saw (I was the manual part!). Here are a couple or pre-burn pics showing a good bit of understory hardwood (green ash in this stand) and a good many briars (they like fertilizer too).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/Pre_IMG.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/Pre1_IMG.jpg)
Because the humidity was low, this was a hotter burn. Just right to kill back most of the hardwood, and the briars were toast!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/During_IMG.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/During1_IMG.jpg)
Because the conditions were just right, it was an almost perfect burn. You can see the green ash (the hardwood, not from the fire!) in the post pic.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/Post1_IMG.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/Post_IMG.jpg)
Some stand history......It was thinned to 150 trees/ac in May 2000. Immediately after the first thin the residual tree average DBH was 7.7 inches. The basal area was 50 square feet. This stand now has 100 square feet of basal area and has an average DBH just shy of 12 inches. So, in six and one-half years, the stand grew from 50 square feet of basal area to 100 square feet and DBH growth was a little over 4 inches or .6 inches per year. Dominant height is now 70 feet.
That's a gooden, whats the site index on the tract?
On the poorer part of the stand, it is about site 70 (base age 25 years) and on the better part of the stand it is site 80 (base age 25 years). These are estimates from my observations. The soil was ripped to 24 inches before planting, and the site is an old field.
I am not sure what the site index would be on a base age 50, since I have not looked it up on the site index curves to see. When I was in school several hundred eons ago, a site 80 on a base age 50 years was considered a pretty decent site for natural pine in these parts. Now, we can get that in half the time with good site prep, improved seedlings, brush control, and fertilizer. I am not saying that this was a site 80 base age 50 years, I think this site would be better than that for natural pine, maybe a site 90. In any event, the growth has exceeded my expectations. I also have a pet peeve that most people in these parts significantly under-thin when they do the first thinning, and they end up growing more pulpwood than anything else. This stand is 80% or better chip-n-saw at age 20, and it is not junky stuff either. Of course the pruning makes it look real nice.
Quote from: WDH on February 11, 2007, 09:29:11 PM
Tonich,
On this site, we consider sweetgum a weed. This is an upland site better suited to pine. The sweetgum, if left here, would not make a high grade tree. However, on a good bottomland hardwood site, sweetgum can make a very high quality sawlog.
I plan to thin these stands again in about 2 to 3 years. I prefer herbaceous understory because if is better for wildlife food. Sweetgum provides no valuable wildlife food. When the 2nd thinning is done, that will open up the canopy so that more light will reach the forest floor. I would rather that light produce herbaceous vegetation than more sweetgum!
That sounds reasonable. Thanks for sharing it.
The afterburn plantation looks ideal. The terrain looks pretty much flat from my point of view. I think I could rush, managing these woodlots. 8) 8)
And I like this term: “steam management”. ;D (I do hope you don’t have very bad neighbors).
You’re doing a great job. Keep on the good work, since we expect sharing with us the annual cut, sawn lumber and made of it furniture.
That's really amazing growth. Even a bit faster than large tooth aspen, which I find is fast growing. I see some 4" LT aspen in 12 years growth.
I think that steam management is a more descriptive term than smoke management when dealing with neighbors! Good add, tonich. One of my stands was close to a neighbor that is downwind of the prevaling wind, so I stopped by to alert them of the upcoming burn. A woman answered the door, and I noticed that she was connected to an oxygen tube. When I told her about my plans, she asked, "Am I going to be able to breathe?". That had me worried for sure. Then yesterday morning I saw that we would have a rare south wind which would carry the smoke away from this home. To say least, I jumped on the opportunity, and not nary a wisp of smoke found its way to that neighbor. That was some real serendipity :D.
Tonich, the terrain is much flatter than what you showed in the logging pics on another one of your posts. That sure makes it easier to manage.
Loblolly is by far the fastest growing of the 4 major southern pine species (Loblolly, Slash, Shortleaf, and Longleaf). That is why the forest industry here almost exclusively plants loblolly in the South.
Quote from: WDH on February 12, 2007, 09:55:06 AM
I think that steam management is a more descriptive term than smoke management when dealing with neighbors! Good add, tonich.
Ops!
My bad!
I have to watch my writings! ::) :P
Do you guys have a boner thread here?
If no, this is a good reason to start one.
(https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hardwarebg.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgtzvetkov%2Flolsign.gif&hash=062bc02bc378cffc9f827230300a9c83d4728a35) (https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hardwarebg.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgtzvetkov%2Flolup.gif&hash=ad618675b1d8f0d1575a854e420f368706a1cc91) (https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hardwarebg.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgtzvetkov%2Flolo.gif&hash=49253800f6b5af5be77b61bcf5a1188b3e1677a8)
Hold on, Tonich. I thought your concept of steam management was very appropriate (steam as in a neighbor having a bad temperment). I thought that you were elegantly insightful ::).
I am dissappointed now that it was a typing mistake. You should not have confessed ;).
Quote from: WDH on February 12, 2007, 11:39:49 AM
Hold on, Tonich. I thought your concept of steam management was very appropriate (steam as in a neighbor having a bad temperment). I thought that you were elegantly insightful ::).
I am dissappointed now that it was a typing mistake. You should not have confessed ;).
Unfortunately, my English is not in that great shape.
I’ve just consulted my dictionary and one of the last meanings was “get angry, lose o.'s temper, fly into a passion/a temper, flare up”.
But that’s OK! I’m fully enjoying my mistake. If you say this is a brand-new, unknown term, then I do insist for my 2 minutes glory in the forum. So where’s the boner thread!?
(https://forestryforum.com/board/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hardwarebg.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgtzvetkov%2Flolo.gif&hash=49253800f6b5af5be77b61bcf5a1188b3e1677a8)
Tonich, is this bunch it is best to accept what they offer, they will get even later on. ::)
Have you guys ever thought of using cows to control hardwood brush.
Stonebroke
Scrub Cows have been used prolifically here in the south. They do a fair job, but there are drawbacks. To get the cows to browse, you have to keep a less than pristine pasture. Cows will eat the leaves of some trees but most will do it only if grazing isn't available. Cows in the woods also compacts the soil and that is detrimental to forests destined for harvest. Trees tend to suffer from root diseases when cattle are present.
Scrubs are still used, especially since fire is so politically incorrect, but the job they do is nowhere as effective as fire or herbicide.
There's some new research that suggests compaction in pine plantations is beneficial. The logic here is that the shallower roots of the competition are more affected by compaction than the deeper roots of the pines. They actually used a steam roller in the site prep. They had mixed results, so this is a controversial topic.
Has anyone ever tried intensive grazing. This would alleviate the concerns about compaction and also do a better job.
Stonebroke
In my country there are a lot of animals, out for grazing.
Definitely, goats are “the devils” among them.
Those animals graze everything they can reach, starting from the top to the bottom.
They even do debark some higher trees. So, nothing is left behind them.
Goats will probably enjoy very much the broadleaf underwood, WDH described…
…While WDH could start Roquefort cheese production soon… ;D :D
It may be that the thoughts on running herds in plantations will change. But, keep in mind that there is a difference in the terminologies Grazing and Browsing. It will help to keep the conversations better understood.
Cows will browse. You can look at the even bottoms of the trees around here and see that. They well even come running if you prune an oak. But most of the oaks growing in a pasture don't get very large, as they would in a Forest setting. Then, I've seen some mighty oaks in an Urban setting with sidewalks and paved streets on each side. I don't know the answer.
From my studies in graduate school in Forest Soils in the old days, compaction is never good under any circumsances. The natural soil is not compacted. So if compaction affects shallowed rooted species that compete with the crop trees to a greater detriment, it is still not good for the whole system. Soils should be friable, promoting good water absorption. Compaction has long term deleterious effects for all species.
You could control any compaction by timing grazing to periods when it would not occur. I would think that the forest would benefit more from the increased organic matter with cows rather than burning. Also the nutrients would be able to cycle in a better more controlled manner.
Stonebroke
If you are going to time your grazing, you better have a good bit more land. Cows have to eat all the time. Land is not free (ask me, I know). You cannot raise quality cows in a plantation management regime. It is just not practical; there is not enough nutrition. Even with hardwood, the nutrition is not of a suitable quality for cows. We had cows all the time when I was growing up. They need quality feed to prosper. We had to plant grain in open Agricultural fields to sustain them thru the winter. Any woodlands grazing is just icing on the cake, not the main objective. It will not hold them for the long term unless you have thousands of acres..................
Goats do a nice job of keeping the woods clean, but the cost of maintaining fences and keeping water to them, along with the time it takes to take care of them would negate any benefit, imho. Cattle just won't work in a SYP plantation, period.
Quote from: DanG on February 14, 2007, 11:23:46 PM
Goats do a nice job of keeping the woods clean, but the cost of maintaining fences and keeping water to them, along with the time it takes to take care of them would negate any benefit, imho. Cattle just won't work in a SYP plantation, period.
Ditto,
Cows won’t do the job, since they browse barely. If you need a real destructor for those aggressive hardwood brush, goats is the way to go.
But I have to agree with WDH - controlled grazing needs much more land and much more time. Somehow it defines and developes a brand new economic farm activity.
PS. WDH, with this burn you start a secondary succession. Since you say in you profile, you have enough passion, this is a good chance to start examining it, according to your botany interests. You could notice the change of herbaceous vegetation, starting from different euthrophyte grasses for the firs few years, via biennial plants late on and get to perennial bushes and understory.
One of the biggest culprits of the understory brush is birds sacking seed and fruit and dropping it. A bird is quite wasteful and probably looses more seed than he eats. Just watch around the bird feeder. In the old orchard here it was overtaken by mountain ash, pin cherry, and raspberry. All sacked in by birds as excrement or fallen from their beaks. I even see a crazy ruffed grouse around here once in awhile and I'm a long way from the woods. That old orchard used to be home to 4 or 5 grouse in the fall and winter. It was a thicket and lots of fruit on the bushes and apple trees.
Quote from: DanG on February 14, 2007, 11:23:46 PM
Goats do a nice job of keeping the woods clean, but the cost of maintaining fences and keeping water to them, along with the time it takes to take care of them would negate any benefit, imho. Cattle just won't work in a SYP plantation, period.
I don't know about that. The prices of goats down here in my little part of the world is getting pretty high. About $2.00 a lbs on the hoof right now. If a man has the means to be in the goat business it's a worth while hobby farm investment. Especially if he had 10 year old planted pines he could fence in and have them keep the briars and the kudzu down.
Don't tell me no more about these 'goat farms'. I seen enough around here. And that's right, hobby farming comes to mind. ::) I'll keep my opinions to myself. ;)
The good thing about livestock is that you can start with two. .....one if you're lucky and know someone who can share. :D
All this talk of alternative methods is great. But, with a full time job, a sawmill, land to maintain, and a family, I'll bet a weekend of burning once in a while, fits into WDH's schedule better than a herd of goats. ::) :D
I hope I did not make you mad about this. I have a large amount of acreage and lotsa cows. For a cattle producer this might work. You do a great job on pines . I would like to emulate it but in new york state if you burned a forest people would freak. Sometimes I think It would be nice to be down south where You have a long history of controlled burns. In NY the only ones I know about are in the pine barrens near albany and they do those for habitat for a endangered species. A couple years ago they closed down I-90 with smoke. So people here do not look to fire as the tool it is. Also in the north the window for a good burn is very small. Again I am just looking for something I could use to make my woods look somewhat as good as yours. I know You have a big advantage in growing pine.
Stonebroke
Nobody's mad here, for sure. :) Just a conversation pointing out why your methods aren't practical down here, and our's aren't possible up there. I have a neighbor who grazes cows among his pines, but they aren't plantation trees. It seems to be working well for him.
Interesting to me how you get so much vegetation under a pine plantation. Once pines get established and close in the canopy here (about 10 years) the understory is pretty much a moonscape covered with pine leaves. There might be a release spaying of the seedlings in the first year to knock back the grass and weeds, after that the pines will outgrow and smother anything else.
Cheers
Ian
Same here too, except if there is opportunity for maple and fir to seed the understory it will come in. But once the plantation is 30 feet above the under story is pretty much bare if shade tolerant seedlings have not yet established. No burning would ever be needed, we would be more worried about thinning out the pine economically. Pine here isn't worth much unless it's big wood 12" or more, that's the dilemma. Jack pine is an exception. Looks a lot like Virginia pine.
I sometimes envy you guys in the north that can go for a peaceful stroll in the woods. Down here, you pretty much gotta hack your way through with a machete, unless it has been maintained with fire.
Oh, yeah. I got yaupons rooted in Fla. :D
I do have some 4 metre (13 foot) red pine to weed this summer with brush saws. It's hard stuff to work in with them big stiff lower branches. The moose have hit them hard in the past breaking off tops. We need more moose hunters, or a longer season. >:(
Yessiree! Yaupon, Dahoon,tupelo,red bay,black gum,sweet gum,legustrum,gall berry and palmetto will jump up there and fill any bare space left available, canopy or no canopy, without fire, herbacide or mowing.
The South is a growing place! 8)
There were a number of people around here using goats to keep woodlots clean. They would talk about how effective it was. But after a few years of chasing the goats when they got out, they all gave up on it. Don't know of anyone using goats now.
I think that the biggest culprit in the establishment of understory hardwood in this specific example was the fact that I heavily thinned this stand at age 14, more heavily than most people do. Opening up the canopy allowed some light seeded hardwood like the ash to get established and the squirrels did the rest by planting acorns for me! The interesting thing about livestock in this particular case was that before the thinning, it was like Ian said; there was only pine trees and pine straw in this stand. Nothing else that was green lived on the forest floor because it was dense with the planted pine. While the livestock might have kept the understory from ever getting developed, they would have been hurting for something to eat most of that time.
When I thin this stand again, I plan to leave about 90 - 100 final crop trees/acre. When that happens, more hardwood will invade the openings since the stand is surrounded on 3 sides by hardwood. If I was a livestock man, then they could keep the hardwood at bay. But, like DanG said, livestock take a lot of work to take care of. Trees are much less demanding, and they don't tend to get out and roam the neighbor's property.
Also, fire was a part of the natural ecology in this area until civilization and people stopped letting the woods burn naturally. Fire is more natural than the absence of fire. Much of the wildlife benefits from the effects of burning, and that is a good thing to me. Coming home today, I encountered a flock of at least 15 wild turkey hens at the edge of the burn. That really warmed my heart to see them and to share the property with them. They like to scratch around and look for bugs in the burned area. On a large propery, cows or goats could work in conjunction with good timber management if you had plenty of fences to manage where they could graze. It is a fact that they could keep the competition under control without the use of fire. It is just something that I do not have the means to do at this time.
Last night (2/16) I was on a flight home and out the window I saw a controlled burn (i think) from the plane. I was somewhere over MS or AL. I'm guessing the line was about .5 mile long. I saw that and thought about this thread, wondering if that was the work of WDH.
Nope! That one was not mine. Night is the best time for a "cool" burn because the humidity is usually higher.
OK, here is an update 2 years after the original burn:
I burned the plantations again last week. I had also did some hack and squirt herbicide treatment with Tordon about a year ago.
Here are a couple of pics of the second burn. This one was pretty hot, got a little scorch on a few trees, but it was just right ;D.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2131.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2128.JPG)
What diameter will you grow those trees to at final harvest? Looks like they could really turn into something.
Stonebroke
Looks like parkland. ;D
I was wondering what the benefit was though when you have pine that are very much dominant and the understory is shrub like. Is it so that when you harvest them you reduce the prep work to establish the next crop? Seems like there would be some loss of nutrients from continued burning so frequently.
The burning removes the understory hardwood and reduces the competition with the pines on the site. A huge benefit is the grass, forbs, and herbaceous plants that colonize the site after the burn. This creates good browse for deer and turkey. Also, you get blackberry which, along with the grasses, makes good quail habitat. Improving the quail habitat is a major objective of mine.
There will be a real shift in understory plant species after the next thinning, which will happen in the next 12 -18 months, markets allowing. I would thin it now if the price was decent. The chip-n-saw prices are lower than they have been for many years, and so I am letting the stand grow in anticipation of better prices. If the stand was younger, and needed a first thin, I would not wait on any price appreciation because the stand would need to have the pulpwood removed and the ensuing growth on the leave trees would be sawtimber growth. These trees are already chip-n-saw size, so I will wait a year or so.
It looks very dark and dank from the pics, but the pics were taken just before dusk, so there was not much natural light left (notice the shadow angle of the trees). Also, after the second thin, the stand will be more open with more light getting to the forest floor. There will be a desirable plant community for wildlife at that point, even a preferred one, rather than a heavy understory of sweetgum, winged elm, and green ash.
The average DBH in this stand is about 11.5". My target DBH is 14" - 16" because at this point the logs reach their highest sawlog value in this market and they will be large enough for utility poles (the highest value product class). This stand is 21 years old. After the second thin and another 5 years of so (maybe 7), I will have achieved the target size on the dominant trees.
Burning every other year would be pretty heavy, but to get the stand in shape and remove the understory hardwood, I hit the stand hard with the first two burns. After this, the frequency would be more like 3 - 4 years. There is some loss of nitrogen from the fire, but there is potassium and phosphorus in the ash that is released in available form for the trees. So, there are pluses and minuses, just like in everything else we deal with in life. There is some nitrogen replenished from rainfall, so overall, it is not too bad. Remember, in the pre-colonial days, this land frequently burned naturally, and the native americans burned areas extensively. The dominant habitat was longleaf pine and the associated grass and herb communities. The fires kept the hardwood under control. So, I am mimicking the old days and growing a valuable crop to boot :).
This is what happens if you open the stand up and get light on the forest floor in the absence of fire (green ash in this case).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/Pre_IMG.jpg)
That is a beautiful stand you've got going in there. I'd like to see some pictures of what it looks like the summer after you thin. I'm sure you'll have a great-looking understory. With any luck, you'll have some herbaceous legumes seed in which will also help to replenish nitrogen lost in the burning.
SD, the southern coastal plain has one of the richest diversities of herbaceous legumes found anywhere in the world. I believe this is due, in part, to the long history of fire in this area. The soils are naturally deficient in nitrogen, so legumes were among the species best adapted to colonizing the open understories after the frequent wildfires.
WDH,
Need to get you over here to give some lessons to the Forestry Service round here. These guys are burning regardless of the humidity, amount of fuel or the drought conditions we are in. The amount of timber they killed the last two burns is sickening
Woodwalker,
Actually, we (our contractor) has been burning in San Jacinto county near Oakhurst on some timberland there that I am looking after there. I believe that is pretty close to you.
I have seen some of the burning that you reference. It seems that the Forest Service is reluctant to thin on time, and the young plantations get overly dense. Then they burn them before they are thinned, and the heat has nowhere to go (little open space), and the crowns of the trees get nuked.
There is a lot of burning going on in your area.
WDH thanks for the informative thread.
Good to be reminded that fire is a tool not only for cooking.
Brings up another question.....I wonder how many in the USA have actually cooked over a fire in this day and age?
Don't mean to hijack the thread just thiinking outloud.....er typographically :D
More pics please
PS never did hear from Philadelphia. I will call again today.
Thanks for the information WDH and Dodgey. I had no idea that green ash of all things would be so invasive in those plantations. Is the soil high in clay? Up here it would be birch, aspen, white spruce, fir and sometimes alder on field plantations. White ash, black cherry, red maple, white spruce, willow, dogwood and alder on wetter pasture. In our jack pine forest we have a lot of sweet fern after burns that provides nitrogen. The seeds are viable for decades. The soil tends to be high in sand and their are frequent burns from drought and lightning strike. Unfortunately sweet fern (and sweet gale) are alternate hosts of jack pine blister rust. I don't know if it is a major problem in New Brunswick because I never read about it being much concern. Mostly red pine, of all native pines, planted on old field. We plant mostly spruces, I prefer white and if dry shaley site, red spruce. That calcareous shale is like fertilizer to red spruce for some reason. They won't grow on wetter ground too well. I saw one 15 acre plantation on shaley soil that looked like 3 year old seedlings after the first season, but the darn rabbits browsed them so bad later in the season. :-X
Quote from: Woodwalker on March 09, 2009, 10:51:55 PM
WDH,
Need to get you over here to give some lessons to the Forestry Service round here. These guys are burning regardless of the humidity, amount of fuel or the drought conditions we are in. The amount of timber they killed the last two burns is sickening
They have burned hundreds of thousands of acres in the west during mid-summer, in a thinly veiled guise of fighting fire. Killing whole mountainsides of old growth or big second growth timber many times. As a fire contractor I have personally heard this statement "Blank that hillside-It's an ugly so-and-so anyway. Light it right here (at the bottom)" >:( We need him to teach that class here first.
I am in no way an expert. Here in Georgia, our Georgia Forestry Commission has a super web site that gives you a 3 and 5 day fire weather forecast with all the important info like wind speed and direction, canopy wind speed, relative humidity, smoke mixing height, smoke dispersal index, etc. Here is a link to tomorrow's forecast:
http://weather.gfc.state.ga.us/CURRENT2/P05-FCSTAVN05.HTML
I burned today, but it was hardwood, and it is much harder to get a good burn on hardwood. Also, without any leaves yet, I could burn with higher temps than I would feel comfortable with for pine. It was 80 degrees today!!
I am not bragging about the weather because Swampdonkey would just tell me to shut up :D.
Quote from: WDH on March 09, 2009, 09:50:28 PM
Also, you get blackberry which, along with the grasses, makes good quail habitat. Improving the quail habitat is a major objective of mine.
Danny, tell us more about quail habitat? It has been many moons since I saw a good covey of quail in the woods.
Quail need good groundcover like grass, briars, weeds, herbaceous plants, etc. A stand that will cater to quail needs to be open with scattered trees, basal areas no more than 50 square feet, probably more like 30. They are seed eaters, and need the native weed seeds. A dense stand or one with a lot of mid-story hardwood shades out these quail preferred plants. They need some thick tangled places for escape cover. I have a lot to learn about managing for quail, but my oldest daughters fiance is a wildlife biologist, so I have a ready source of advice and direction. I will be planting grain sorghum, soy beans, and iron clay peas in some of my open areas. Quail like lespedeza. They also like some bare ground between weeds so they can escape and not be trapped by predators. I have at least one wild covey on my property, probably two. I like to hear them calling in the spring. They are good to eat too, but I do not plan to hunt these birds.
I saw a pair of hen turkeys on my place this evening. They were scratching the leaves and just easing along without a care.
Quote from: WDH on March 10, 2009, 09:37:11 PM...I burned today, but it was hardwood, and it is much harder to get a good burn on hardwood...
I gotta ask, why are you burning hardwood? I've never heard of it except for some real wacky forest service ideas. Although, maybe you've got some real wacky hardwoods in the deep south? :D
Clark
Quote from: WDH on March 10, 2009, 09:37:11 PM
It was 80 degrees today!!
I am not bragging about the weather because Swampdonkey would just tell me to shut up :D.
:-X :-X We got half way there, at 43 F. ;D
Storm day today. ::)
Clark, this situation is a little unusual. The hardwood areas are mostly upland hardwood (originally a pine site) that was high graded badly about 15 years ago. There were some good trees left in spots and a lot of junk. I went through the area with the hatchet and a squirt bottle (Tordon 101 M) and killed most of the undesireable unmarketable species or low value species if there was a sapling of a desirable tree like yellow poplar, red oak, or white oak. I also took care to preserve soft mast trees and other desirable wildlife tree species.
After a couple of years, I burned through this area to clean it up some. That was about 9 years ago. One unintended consequence of opening up the stand after the herbicide work was a profusion of hophornbeam regeneration over a good portion of the 25 acre acre area. It was thick as hair on a dog's back and has no value, even for the critters.
The burn was to control the hophornbeam and to deal with the regeneration of species like sweetgum. The desirable saplings are large enough to stand the fire, and the smaller ones are not. So, this was a process to regenerate this high graded area and select for marketable species and get rid of the junk left after the high grade.
There was not enough merchantable volume in the beginning to justify a harvest to remove the junk, so I went with herbicide and fire. I will take and post a few pics.
Like I said, this was an unusual situation since fire is not generally used in hardwood down here.
So this is more economic that just clearcutting and starting over with pine trees?
Stonebroke
Wow, this thread is one of my favorites!
I’m glad you brought it back, WDH! 8)
That's very interesting WDH. Good to see you are thinking about your options with a high-graded stand, many foresters get into a rut about what they can do and consequently only consider two or three things when managing woodlands. Of course, I'll be looking forward to the pictures!
Clark
Yeah hardwood is not as easy to catch fire as softwood. If that is ironwood, like ironwood (O. virginiana) I know up here it's as bad as beech in under maple stands with partial harvest and a lot of crown closure left. Grows back thicker than... :-X :-X A lot of sugar bushes have trouble with ironwood taking over as stands are thinned for crown expansion. Ironwood is very shade tolerant. You might not see many mature ironwood around before you start thinning, but they seed heavy like beech. Don't know how long the seed is viable, possibly decades. From USDA information: Seed testing organizations do not include ironwood in their viability testing. One estimate of seed production in Iowa averages 50,200/ac. Out planted seeds freshly collected have nearly 100 % germination success the following spring.
Quote from: stonebroke on March 11, 2009, 08:56:13 AM
So this is more economic that just clearcutting and starting over with pine trees?
Stonebroke
Stonebroke,
No. In the long run, pines would probably be better on most of the site. However, I have a good bit of plantations with ages 23, 22, 21, 13, and 0 (just planted). I want to keep this hardwood for diversity and for good wildlife habitat, especially since there are a number of oaks with many white oaks included, that are excellent for the deer and turkeys. Unfortunately, I am over-run with wild hogs. They are a scourge. Some ground pork is in order, but that is better handled on the food board.
This stand wants to be a mixed pine and hardwood stand I think. There are some big pines scattered about that are 60+ years old.
SD,
Yep, Ostrya. Everywhere! Those seeds lay around forever waiting on their chance to get released. Well, they got released, and now I plan to un-release them :D.
Cursed things, we had a stand of hardwood and a couple trails into it to harvest the firewood trees, in a handful of years those trails became solid ironwood, literally. The stand was left with 80+ crown closure, but the trails got invaded. Here I've got 4 as yard trees. ::)
WDH
So you want a true multipurpose forest(timber, recreation, and wildlife) I salute you for for broad view of things.
Stonebroke
Here are some more pics. These show the hardwood-pine stand after the burn:
This is the edge of an old logging deck. The young pine reproduction is old enough to survive the burn, but hopefully the fire will kill back a lot of the hardwood sprouts.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2132.JPG)
In this pic, you can see the lone pine in the foreground and the white oaks in the background. The ridge falls off into a hardwood bottom with a spring fed creek.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2133.JPG)
A view to the left of the prior pic. Again, a large pine with a mixture of smaller hardwood.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2140.JPG)
Another pine plantation with some of the offending sweetgum. The broken ones (sweetgum and winged elm) in the foreground were hacked and squirted.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2142.JPG)
Sounds like them Wild Hogs might be opportun for a One Way in Corral WDH. ;D
I saw one of them in Perry, Florida at a friend of a friends property. Not sure how far that is from you. He had made a Wired Corral with some heavy Gauge stuff about 30x30 feet. It had a few trees and Bushes in the ring. He put some Feed Corn down to lure them in. It was a one way door. There were 3 trapped in when they showed me the place. They are some mean little buggers. :D Wouldn't want to get cut by one. This good ol boy wasn't to afraid of them. I was. :D
He told me how they trap, cut and release them for furure harvest. You could be in Hog Heaven. :)
We set a cage trap a few years back and caught a big sow. After that, nothing. I guess they figured it out. A big trap like you mention might be the trick. They are rooting up the place something fierce. They are also bad on the native wildlife as they are super competitors that can eat anything. I find the meat tough, usually. Also, a little gamey. You cannot use the fat because it has a strong taste. Of course, if you catch them and feed them corn, the fat turns sweet. I found the best way to deal with the meat is grind it up for sausage, grind it into pork burger, or BBQ the whole thing, pick off the meat, shred it, and freeze it on one pound portions. We have not had good luck with roasting it, baking it, or frying it as the meat is very tough.
If things go totally south ( ;D) with this economy, at least I will have hog meat and acorns :D.
Sounds like boar meat. Nobody will eat that here and the smell of it cooking will tell ya if it's a boar.
They catch them little piglets, cut their sack, take out the rocky mountain oysters and then release them back into the wild until harvest hunt. I'd say it takes a special skill to accomplish the task. :D
I think they refer to it as "having been cut".
The Meat is supposed to be great all though I have never tried it. There is a fellow who works with us that keeps offering a guided hunt. May have to take him up on it one day.
Maybe in the barn, but wild ones? You might never see little piggy again. ;D :D
Beautiful place you have there, WDH. It is going to be even more beautiful in a few years. Outstanding job 8) 8)
Wow, three years since the last post in this thread! I wanted to provide an update. It has been three years since the last burn. I burned today. This stand was thinned for the second time in May 2010. This plantation was established in 1987, thinned first in 2000, and thinned second in 2010. It is 25 years old. As of last year, the quadratic mean diameter was 12.6", the height was 72 feet, the basal area was 96 square feet, and the stocking was 110 trees/acre. I would have thinned it heavier in 2010 had it not been for the very poor log market.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0490.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0494.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0495.JPG)
Is the purpose of the burn to keep the hardwood at bay so you can reestablish pine again after some harvesting. Otherwise I can't see what burning underbrush does for those big pine. ;)
I've always noticed if a site tends to come back to say hardwood, it's probably what was there historically. You see out of place plantation black spruce is when it is planted on a site that was sugar maple and the surrounding woods is solid maple. Then I have to go in and cut those thick maples out because spray as they wish, them maples want to grow. ;) :D
I'm pulling on a your chain a little. But, I think you did a fine burn there whatever it accomplishes. My uncle would love that kind of job because he lights the fields all a fire in the spring time. Asked me one time if he should plant the fields to trees. I didn't entertain because I know what would become of them. ::) I told him it will grow back on it's own...and it is to pine, spruce, aspen, birch, and fir and lots of apple trees. :D
This stand is in front of my house and I want it to be aesthetically pleasing to the eye :).
On the other stands, it is to keep the hardwood at bay and allow herbaceous plants, weeds, legumes, etc in the understory for the deer and turkeys. The hardwood will out compete them and shade them out. There is also a potassium boost from potash, but some nitrogen is lost from the fire. The climax forest here is hickory/beech/magnolia, so the hardwoods are always trying to invade.
It looks like you had a perfect day for a perfect burn. smiley_thumbsup
I am way behind you because my pines were planted in '05.
Nice looking burn ,Danny. When I was working for a large ranch in Fla. I was exposed to a unique method of "contolled" burns. The methodology consisted of , a horse, a cowboy , a strong north wind, a box of blue tip matches, combined with a nice trot and a good striking motion. Firebreaks were, in order of succession, swamps, roads, Atlantic Ocean and Gulf of Mexico. ;D I was tasked with changing that. I was not very popular. :D
Mark
If my firebreaks were the Atlantic Ocean and the Gulf of Mexico, there would be a lot of people mad at me, too :D.
First, the woods look great after the burn. Early in the thread someone mentioned that the smoke could be a problem with the neighbors. Educating the folks in the area about the benefits of burning and how they far outweigh not burning is probablly the key to getting the neighbors on board.
Second, some non-foresters may not realize that the southern pines are not climax species like many of the hardwoods and to remain the dominant vegetation something has to remove the competition that would eventually shade them out. Many of the native plants and animals in the southern pine ecosystems are adapted to fire and some must have it to thrive.
I assume fusiform rust is a problem in your area with slash and loblolly pines. The oaks are the alternate host for fusiform and regular burning can reduce fusiform rust in the pines.
Caveman,
Those are excellent points! Historically, fire is what kept things stirred up from a successional standpoint in the Southern Pine belt. The Native Americans used it extensively. Modern society is afraid of fire in the woods.
The key with smoke is to have a day with the right atmospheric conditions like a good mixing height and a good smoke dispersion index.
I must say that the other plantations that I have do not look as clean as this one, and need the periodic fire more so than this one that I have babied :).
I will be burning again today, this time a 14 year old plantation that was shown on this thread: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,39179.msg563700.html#msg563700
That looks good.
Don't get that Cambium to hot. :D
Looks like a good burn WDH. There have been times when your smoke from down there comes into S.C.
Cough....cough.....so watch the wind. 8)
The wind was from the East today, so you were safe :).
That is a fine looking forest. :)
Great burn. I bet your arm is little bit longer. ;D
I had to switch arms so that they both would stay the same length :D.
Every time that I switch arms, it makes my thumbs be in the wrong place.
Quote from: Magicman on March 07, 2012, 08:44:52 AM
Every time that I switch arms, it makes my thumbs be in the wrong place.
Well next time you switch arms.....turn around backwards! ;D Thumb problem solved.
We're always here to help on the Forestry Forum.
Sure makes the woods look good after all the black is gone.
I know that y'all are tired of a bunch of pics of burned woods, but here is a another one :). This is a pic of the 23 year old plantation that I burned today.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0500.JPG)
Here is a 16 year old that will get the business tomorrow :).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0503.JPG)
You know what your mother told ya about playing with matches. no_no ;D
Our woods up here have a lot of evergreens in the understory, mostly fir, that would send the place up like a torch. These little trees are green from the ground up and light like kerosene. Just a grass fire that gets away pretty much will torch the woods. ;)
Danny switching arms is great unless your in the middle of the fire break. ;D
"You idiot! You lit the wrong side of the break!"
Well, that has not happened. Yet :).
I enjoy watching how you do things in your area Danny, thanks for showing us. :)
Danny did you do all this yourself? I'd be in a panic. Sure do have some places I need to have it done to though.
How old do the trees need to be for a commercial harvest Danny?
Norm,
The earliest age that I have sold for a commercial thinning was 11 years old (in the 11th growing season after planting). The rule of thumb is that it is time to thin when the dominant trees reach a total height approaching 40 feet. For southern pine, do not let the crown ratio drop below 30% :o.
I am all burned out now! I finished today.
Raider, yes, I did this myself. The key is good preparation, which means good fire breaks and burning on the right day (proper weather conditions).
Here is a deal. If you cook me another breakfast like the last one and a steak dinner like the last one with associated Tennessee Creek Water, I will come to Tennessee and we will burn your pines next season.
Hm, how about an old Texas forester to watch the creek water while y'all burn?
TR,
That sounds like an even better plan! A man has to call on his resources :D.
And while y'all are rockin' the creek water, I'll place the final bid. ;D
Don't underestimate that Texas Ranger. He has slicked back hair ;D.
I would love to be there. I will help TR. ;D
OK Raider,
It looks like a party (and free labor!) ;D.
Quote from: WDH on March 08, 2012, 09:58:47 PM
Norm,
The earliest age that I have sold for a commercial thinning was 11 years old (in the 11th growing season after planting). The rule of thumb is that it is time to thin when the dominant trees reach a total height approaching 40 feet. For southern pine, do not let the crown ratio drop below 30% :o.
I am all burned out now! I finished today.
Raider, yes, I did this myself. The key is good preparation, which means good fire breaks and burning on the right day (proper weather conditions).
Here is a deal. If you cook me another breakfast like the last one and a steak dinner like the last one with associated Tennessee Creek Water, I will come to Tennessee and we will burn your pines next season.
Danny that's a deal!
Danny, you sure have an exciting life. One of the factors with the troubled youths that I used to work with was setting fires. Hmmmmm? Like the TR I have also been cited by the US Forest service. My citation was for "allowing a fire to escape" No harm done but I had 6 Volunteer fire vehicles in my front drive. Say your prayers....
No fire trucks for me, so far :).
Do you have to notify anyone or get a burn permit or anything?
My uncle has had a fire truck come a couple times. He seems to think it's funny, but I don't. I think the smile would be wiped off his face if they sent him a bill. ::)
Years ago we use to burn the fields and brush piles,probably back in the late 70's.My Father never had a brush fire or burning the fields get away from us. Have to pick your days and wait for the right conditions. No permits than. Now,which is a good idea, the way some people think, we have to get a permit. No big deal,there are 3 guys that can issue them,one has a working garage, Use to be able to get them from the corner store, but somehow that stopped. It's good too so if someone calls in a fire they can look up permits to see if it's OK.
Yes, you have to have a burn permit. You have to call the Georgia Forestry Commission and they will discuss the weather conditions with you. They may flat out refuse to give a permit, or they may be willing to give a permit, but advise against burning that day. Once they have the info on where, how big, and the type of burn, you get a burn permit #. Then, you have to call the non-emergency 911 service and notify them of the burn, give them the permit #, and tell them the time of the burn. Then, when the smoke gets reported, they know that a burn is in progress so that they can stand down the local volunteer fire dept jockeys. Otherwise, they will come roaring up to save the day.
The Forestry Commission has always had a plane up to monitor control burns, and they have always flown over and checked out my burns. The Commission is very supportive of controlled burns and prescribed fire, and they have a publicity campaign to attempt to educate the uneducated that burning can be a good thing for the forest.
Doesn't require a permit here until the end of May until the end of October. Most folks that want to burn grass will do it before the end of May. Only the DNR ranger offices issue permits here and they monitor fire weather index. At every station it is posted daily out on a big sign. More details are on their website. My grandmother's cousin, who was once chief forester for NB, was instrumental in putting the fire suppression system we have today together. He grew up here locally, acquired degrees in engineering and forestry and fought during the war.
Started my Prescribed burning this year. I have about 100 acres to burn. This is the fourth burn in this stand.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0303.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0302.JPG)
Lookin' good Danny! That's some mighty clean looking woods.
NFS did a 3000 acre burn in the Apalachicola NF on Thursday. Can you imagine trying to keep up with that? :o
I can see the forest in the woods now. :)
Good job Pyro. :D
Very impressive results, that stand looks great! david
Like I said several years ago in this thread, I really enjoyed burning, I liked the results, and I like the process. But, age, insurance, and regulations have put me in the barn. Good job, Danny.
I suppose in the 'perfect world' of controlled-burn management in southern pines the end justifies the means. But what about the real-world of pine management, where fire, used as a tool, cannot be used.
Bring on the goats! Here we have a "silvo-pasture" creature willing to work, controlling invasives, and many other weed-plants & vines, to enhance growing of southern pines. And what about the by-products..the meat, milk, cheese, produced from goats from grazing special woodland habitat?
A professor at Lincoln University, Jefferson City, MO. is working intensively on the 'goat-silvo-pasture' project there. Can goat-pasturing in southern pine woodlands be a successful enterprise?
In the South, we have Pine plantations spreading across thousands of acres. I would think it would be very expensive to fence in these areas and use goats for cleaning understory areas. Plus we have so many predators that loves goats. :)
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on January 18, 2014, 10:42:40 AM
In the South, we have Pine plantations spreading across thousands of acres. I would think it would be very expensive to fence in these areas and use goats for cleaning understory areas. Plus we have so many predators that loves goats. :)
True, that. And, according to a study, up to 77% mortality in goat-sheep herds were attributed to canine attacks......yet a herd of goats can be protected from predators by just one llama!. Reading about llamas for sheep & goat herd protection from 'yotes and dogs, reportedly, one llama can protect goats and sheep from 1000 to 2000 open acre pasture! LLama don't do so well with mountain lion, but may lead the herd in close for protection.
As a alternative when controlled burning or chemical application is not practical or permitted, but controlling a number of invasives i.e., honeysuckle, multiflora rose, is necessary, bring in the goats!
That is a good looking pine stand. Have all of your burns been dormant season, or thrown in a growing season burn? That is what most people want there stands to look like, just goes to show the results of RX burning. I'm slowly getting started on my burns this year, I've wrapped up about 100 acres between 3 burns ( site prep, fields and understory). Hopefully the weather will cooperate to get the rest done.
Danny, the burn looks like it went really well. How frequently do you like to burn your loblolly (I assume that is what they are) forest? If the conditions you had in Perry were anything like they were here today, it was just right to do a prescribed burn.
Caveman
curdog,
Only dormant season burns. Easier on the birds, bees, and critters. As for ticks, I have no love in my heart. These burns really help control them.
caveman,
I did burn again today. It was a tad windy, and that made it exciting. I talked with Jake before I got started and he said that I was a brave man :D. Because these stands have all been burned three times before, there is not a huge fuel load on the forest floor. To knock back the encroaching hardwoods (mainly water oak, sweetgum, and hog plum (inedible), I need a bit more wind to carry the fire and generate enough heat to be be effective. You have to be very careful, though, and set a good backfire into the wind to generate a pretty good burned strip next to the firebreak to prevent the headfire from over-running the firebreak and burning your neighbors land :).
Here is a headfire (wind at its back) that is going along pretty good! A hot fire creates its own weather. You can see from the top left of the pic that it is pretty hot. That is from the roiling smoke and heat.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0305.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0306.JPG)
Here is the aftermath. You can see what happened to all the small hardwoods.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0311.JPG)
I probably got a little crown scorch, but you have to have the heat to get the desired result. A slow, cool burn will not take out the hardwoods over 1- 2" in diameter.
A work of art and a Master of the fire.
I learned alot from my Father on burning the fields. I have seen and heard of the trouble other peole have and can get into. We burnt the fields many times over the years. Never once had any problems.
Quote from: thecfarm on January 18, 2014, 10:29:04 PM
A work of art and a Master of the fire.
I learned alot from my Father on burning the fields. I have seen and heard of the trouble other peole have and can get into. We burnt the fields many times over the years. Never once had any problems.
I burned wheat fields for over forty years, no problems, but consider myself lucky. What changed was that more people are outdoors today with nothing to do. But the day two kids came flying down the private farm road on a three wheeler just daring the fire, and completely disappeared in the smoke and survived..well, i swore never again would I ever burn. Fire fascinates lots of folks, and today, with lawsuits flying around like hornets from a disturbed nest, No Thank-you! :)
What a beautiful Forest. :)
Nice job, Danny.
How many on your fire crew?
Looks nice Danny. :)
However fire and me are enemies, we had a piece of land leased out one time as part of a sale. The leasee let a 3rd party in to harvest his straw from his grain harvest. I had been keeping an eye on this character since I saw him lighting fires the day before when I was in the woods. I told him absolutely no fires. The next evening he set the fields afire and left. This was still fire season in October. Me with lots of dead grass and goldenrod growing in my tree plantations, right up next to the fields. I was up there to check things and seen the fields burning so I was putting out fires that night. Who woulda paid for a new plantation? Wouldn't have been either of those two idiots. ::) We never ever burned fields here, they were being cultivated. It would be different if they were on run out ground where no one grows stuff on. Even then we have lots of people setting them and walking off and the woods burn down.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 19, 2014, 12:00:27 PM
I was up there to check things and seen the fields burning so I was putting out fires that night. Who woulda paid for a new plantation? Wouldn't have been either of those two idiots. ::)
If you can trace a fire back to its origin and find evidence of what started it and who owned that evidence, prosecution can be easy, especially if you can prove they were in that location.
Assuming you think a person started a fire on a property but have no evidence or eye witnesses can be pretty tough to prosecute without the accused admitting it.
I really enjoy following this thread, Danny. :)
So does the woods green up in the spring for the animals ? It does here if there's enough rain .
Quote from: Peter Drouin on January 19, 2014, 05:57:30 PM
So does the woods green up in the spring for the animals ? It does here if there's enough rain .
Yep....lots of burns are just for wildlife. We do a lot of under story burns for Quail preserves.
I love burning......almost as sawing logs. :)
Sometimes you can look WAY down a straight firebreak and see that BIG buck crossing the firebreak when the smoke pushes him out. :o
I saw Danny's farm when I was in Georgia.....he keeps things neat. smiley_thumbsup
Robert,
Friday and Saturday was a crew of two. Me and my BIL. Today was a crew of three. Burned more acres, and it was a tad windy and a bit riskier.
Peter,
The burned plantations really green up well with lots of weeds and forbs that the deer and turkey really love versus an understory of sweetgum that does not have much habitat value. I will take a pic when Spring springs.
My BIL said he had a rattlesnake cross the firebreak today. Must have got flushed from his stump hole. He managed to survive my BIL's attempt to dispatch him :).
Great looking forest WDH. How old would that stand be? I may have to move my operation south. It would be fun to operate in a stand that clean. More often than not I have to cut a bunch of unmerchantables out of the way to get to a tree worth cutting.
Aint that the truth? And a lot of them are old understory runts, like rotten stemmed fir. :D
Ken,
Planted in 1987. It is going into its 28th year. These stands are very clean due to my burning program.
Go back to the first two posts in this thread. Look at the pics. They are of the same stand that is shown in the last 3 pics. Amazing how much this stand has developed and grown. It was thinned again in 2010.
Peter can remember how a field looks when it starts to green up. Looks like a bright,bright green. If the forest floor looks like that it must almost glow at dusk.
We do burn fields here
Someone set a power line afire last spring and walked off. It burned several acres and fire fighters came from all over fighting it plus planes. It was put out just before reaching 350 acres of woods owned by relatives. Flirting with fire is risky business. ;)
I have to say, I envy you fellows who can go out there and burn. I have one woods lot that's screaming for a burn, just for turkey & quail habitat. Another 30 acre block of 50 yrs.naturally seeded shortleaf pine, and several scattered one to three acres ridge top SL pine of all ages, over a section of predominately oak. All pine naturally seeded from parent trees.
I have only one rec [30 acre block in a bottom] to burn if possible. But, that won't happen because of the close proximity to neighbors. The alternative is to deaden understory, i.e., sweet gum, black cherry, maple, and ER cedar. The 50 year stand of pine thinned once, and could definitely be thinned today, but the density is keeping unwanted vegetation at a minimum. I know, I'm cheating myself, just waiting for the right price and buyer. Pine not well thought of presently, neither was the hickory until recently. On the plus side, I did see a pair of woodcock last spring in the pine bottom:-\
A couple years ago, I was on a fill plant site on a site that was hardwood upland. A bit of a side hill to it and raspberry canes growing up near the planted dead zone along the road. That place was full of wood cock. I found 3 or 4 nests of eggs. If I was doing a woodcock count, that would be a place I'd be checking out every spring. :)
In the spring time I have several pairs of Wilson's snipe doing their ritual flights on my land. There are beaver ponds all round me on the brooks. I have only a couple acres flooded.
SD,
Come down here to visit and Customsawyer and I will take you on a snipe hunt.
Quote from: WDH on January 20, 2014, 09:13:43 PM
SD,
Come down here to visit and Customsawyer and I will take you on a snipe hunt.
DON'T DO IT SWAMP. running-doggy
:D :D I've got Poston looking out for me now. That must mean I'm surely in trouble. ;)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 21, 2014, 04:08:16 AM
:D :D I've got Poston looking out for me now. That must mean I'm surely in trouble. ;)
Old Saying. :D
We should have a burn party over at my place. ;D
Who is going to bring the dozer er, fire starter? :D :D :D ;D
Poston's bringing that brand new one as soon as they pull it out of the creek. :D
move_it On my way with a muddy CAT and a load of Pickled Peaches.
I'm coming, too.
Quote from: WDH on January 21, 2014, 09:02:47 PM
I'm coming, too.
I'll pick you up at the mailbox. :D
With 2 professionals and a bulldozer we should get all my pines plots cleared off in no time! ;D ;D :D :D :D
Burned 50 more acres today. Perfect burning weather. Other people would say that it was a bit windy and cold :).
Sure was....windy and cold. Time to load up the furnace, I'd say. :D
Quote from: WDH on January 22, 2014, 08:30:32 PM
Burned 50 more acres today. Perfect burning weather. Other people would say that it was a bit windy and cold :).
Good for you, Do you have more to burn? :)
Only about a 2 acre spot. This cold weather has made for excellent burning weather. I see that you were cutting hemlock today. Most would have been by the stove ;D.
Quote from: WDH on January 22, 2014, 09:29:14 PM
Only about a 2 acre spot.
HEAD FIRE......You'll be done in less than 5 minutes. :D
You should have seen that head fire today :).
I would think the timing is the thing with burning like that, 2 acre left then back to sawing? :)
Yep, need to saw out the pine for a planer room to plane kiln dried lumber. Blame this on Yellowhammer :).
Is that Nile kiln working the way you want to?
It is a little wood drying beast.
A little Weyerhauser in the works. :D
I am fully integrated with myself :D.
Quote from: WDH on January 23, 2014, 07:27:53 AM
I am fully integrated with myself :D.
I don't think I would have told that. I thought you were a married man. :D
I would be standing right next to the fire today. Mighty cold out there today. Even my feet was cold on the shop floor. Hands about stuck to frozen wood from out in the unheated area of the barn. :D
You shoulda been here helping Dodgy. Then you woulda had a different kind of black dust on your hands. ;D
Well, it is that time again. Time to burn. It has been so rainy and wet that there have been only two good burning days this year, and I was able to burn on both of them. This plantation is now 29 years old and is scheduled for a thinning this Spring/Summer.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_1328.JPG)
Here is the aftermath.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_1330.JPG)
Stick it with a fork....its done. :)
Neat thread, I had no idea this was done on such a regular basis. The authorities used to do controlled burns here to change the woods on a large scale but have almost stopped, too many people and too many accidents over the years. They stopped calling them backfires years ago for obvious PR reasons.
Awesome thread!
That is a fine stand there. A few years ago, I had a neighbor whose trash got out of control and burned my small stand (6 acres) She was very upset and thought I was going to get ugly about it. I was very happy that it got burned, and that she started it :D Now I did not have to worry about her place catching fire, if I would have been the one to set it.
Burning the woods down here does more good than harm.
Only jack pine up this way benefits from fire. It will be a carpet of pine after the overstory burns off. Some people still don't understand that, even mills. I have seen jack pine burn sites planted to spruce, only to discover a mat of jack pine seedlings in a year or so choking them out. :D Planted jack pine is junk, but natural thick growing jack pine are nice logs. When the hurricane went through a couple years ago it pretty much wiped out a lot of planted jack pine out in Deersdale region, Irving has been cutting it all down and replacing with spruce. Most of the stuff was crooked, forked and half dead anyway.
Trouble with fire up here in softwood forest is that there is fine fuels and green limbs to the ground, especially if spaced like your pines. You'd end up torching the crop trees. Those limbs are great fuel. ;)
Good looking burn job! Good looking everything, very nice stand,
I just read this thread from the beginning. I'm happy I got to visit the site a couple of years ago.
Danny's is really a nice tree farm.
Keep up the good work Danny!
Jon
Nice looking pine Danny.
My 20 yr old Red oak plantation is only from about 4"dbh to some almost 8" now so am jealous of the growth in the south.
Cant burn legally here in NY and most of our hardwoods are too thin barked to burn as what didn't die would be seriously degraded.
Oak may be the exception.
Striped maple, beech and fern are our nemesis here and sometimes hop hornbeam.
Fern (not sure of the species) is especially detrimental as nothing can get a foothold where they are.
Basal area I shoot for in my uneven aged NH stand is thin to about 80 and carry to 110 or so.
Also when I started reading this thread I noticed the ages in some forum members profiles and thought these guys are pretty old now.
But, must be that the profiles are updated to the present from the beginning of the thread.
Danny I didnt think you looked 71 yrs old at the pig roast.
Looking good, I love to see a good burn. My burning days are over, but I still prescribe a few for our commercial burner.
That burn came out good. I was involved with some prescribed burns last summer in the UP in jack pine stands. By design we wanted to take out some of the overstory but not all of it. It's quite a bit of fun to stand there with a drip torch and your boss tells you more fire and it's torching behind you as you go. ;D
I think even a northern hardwood stand might benefit from a very cool low burn in the understory in some situations if it can be kept under control. There was a brush fire not far from where I sit in a stand of oak and maple last spring and while everyone was upset over it, I noticed it did a lot of good. The understory was a tick infested mess of invasive species. Now they're gone, the ticks are gone, and the overstory trees are okay too. It wasn't a hot or fast burn.
Yeah, can't burn the hardwood hot and fast like this SYP.
Made a post about burns a while back and the mention of burning oak stands came up,, it can and has caused the fungus to be among us as mentioned by Danny,, hot burns in oak will do damage, and for the long run, which is not the intended purpose for burns and TSI,, it just takes time, and care through the process.. learned a pile in a short while, and still learning,,
The bark of sapling hardwoods can get damaged by the fire and that becomes an entry point for rot.
I would not control burn hardwood either. Most of the time if it's a sugar maple stand that isn't thinned too much, it's like park land under it anyway. Some sugar bushes that are thinned hard have beech and ironwood problems, but unless you want to melt your tubing, and harm the maple trees, it's not recommended. :D
Really good to see Rx fire being used, wished we done more of it all across the conifer lands. TR, was in Texas last week but hung around the Capitol too long to get out in the woods. Did see the Ladybird Trail and lots of the stuff she done down there. I am impressed with the history of that fine State............
That hardwood stand that burned is all large, mature trees, and the understory had no real hardwood regeneration. Just buckthorn, oriental bittersweet, and some other small garbage. If there was any good regeneration it would be a different story. I wouldn't want a fire on my woodlot where I have some nice sugar maple, yellow birch, and red spruce regeneration coming up in the understory.
the most common eco-system in the midwest was fire dependant. Oak savannas. Now they are very rare. Fire was required to keep tree competition down. White oaks, burr oaks especially are very fire resitant. So the occasional fires either set by indians or thunder storms preserved this ecosystem. Not a very good producer of lumber but a great eco-system for wildlife.
here is a link to some info on oak savannas and fire.
http://www.oaksavannas.org/fire-fuel.html
I've burned hardwood stands before with good results. Two years ago I ran a pretty hot fire through a high graded stand of scarlet, chestnut, white oak it had some shortleaf and pitch pine scattered throughout the stand. The understory was a solid wall of mountain laurel. The mountain laurel was preventing any sunlight from reaching the ground so regeneration was non existent. Now two years later, the oak regeneration responded well to the increased sunlight and the edges of the stand responded well with partridge pea and warm season grasses. The shortleaf saplings were top killed, but re-sprouted from the basal crook, and it removed the Virginia pine from the stand. I'm pleased, and the landowner is ready to burn again, and was very happy with the improved wildlife habitat and the oak regen.
Not all hardwood stands will benefit from fire, but it definitely has it's place.
We have shade tolerant hardwood in the forest up here that I've never seen a natural fire in. Any natural fires are in softwood forest. Plus we don't have invasive non native shrubbery out in the forest. I've not seen many tolerant hardwood stands here that don't regenerate after some harvesting. Oak has a hard time surviving sugar maple forest up here, it gets shaded and over topped. It isn't even a significant component of the the forest. I saw someone trying to under plant oak in sugar maple forest one time. The oak are all dead of course from shade, or eaten up by the rabbits. Red spruce and fir are almost shade tolerant enough to grow in a closet. ;D They often are the next stand released from a harvest (overstory removal). Our better aspen are seeded in after a fire, better quality than suckers. When you drive the roads out in Deersdale, most all aspen are along the road side. On private land aspen is about everywhere because of harvesting practices. Where I live at we have not had a forest fire in the area in my lifetime, but there was one in my grandparent's time, but not in hardwood.
Well, it is time again to burn. Will start tomorrow.
If you're gonna do anything tomorrow let a fire be in the equation.
Gonna be cold Danny!
,
Burned a lot, back in the day. The most productive tool for a land owner, they can see almost immediate results. That and I loved to burn, till the year when insurance went out of sight.
wish they allowed burning here in NY :(
A dozer showed up last week and plowed a fire line around the woods behind my house. I was very pleased to see it. The owner has always burned it every other year but he passed away unexpectedly last year, leaving the land to his 21 year-old son. Everyone had wondered how this was going to play out but the young man has surprised everybody by making some significant upgrades to the place. It is exciting to me to see that he will continue the good stewardship that his Father always practiced. :) 8)
Dan,
Nice to see the Son carrying on.
Burning did not go particularly well today. Only got about half done what I wanted to get done because the wind laid down and there was a heavy frost last night which made the fuel damper for a longer period of the day. The lack of wind did not carry the fire as well as I would have liked. Going to try again on Wednesday. A few areas did real well. A couple of pics:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2206.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1516065538)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2207.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1516065604)
Good thing about those pine is there is no ladder of green limbs for the fire to climb into a big crown fire ball. ;D
This must be the field site, and I can imagine unwanted vegetation taken a hold under those open pines.
Maybe some day they'll let forestry manage those California forests, to reduce potential wildfires. ;)
Yes, A 29 year old, old (Tom) field plantation. Will be 3rd thinned this Spring.
Herbaceous plants, forbs, and grasses as well as tender young hardwood shoots will come back in this Spring, and the deer and turkey love it.
What age would you recommend the trees to be before burning? My neighbor accidentally caught 1/2 of mine on fire when they were only about 5 years old and they survived luckily. She was burning trash and then there it went. I was away working but the trees are ok. I have wanted to burn them for a while but couldn't. (physically). They are loblolly and planted in 05 I think. I have had them thinned 2 years ago and they are doing good, but wanted to burn for the reasons you stated. Would you recommend waiting until the next thing or does it matter?
Quote from: LaneC on January 20, 2018, 05:21:35 PM
What age would you recommend the trees to be before burning? My neighbor accidentally caught 1/2 of mine on fire when they were only about 5 years old and they survived luckily. She was burning trash and then there it went. I was away working but the trees are ok. I have wanted to burn them for a while but couldn't. (physically). They are loblolly and planted in 05 I think. I have had them thinned 2 years ago and they are doing good, but wanted to burn for the reasons you stated. Would you recommend waiting until the next thing or does it matter?
I typically burn two years after the first thinning in loblolly ( which for us is a little later around 15-17 years). This gives the trees time to recover from the stresses of thinning and allows enough regrowth of the undesirable species to get good benefit from the burn. This will also open the canopy a little more so it will allow heat to escape and cut down on needle scorch.
I also burn loblolly after the 1st thinning.
Thanks a bunch. The knowledge on here is great. I have never even heard of needle scortch, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks again.
If the fuel load is high, you will generate a lot of heat. You need the wind to dissipate that heat and you need cold temps to help do that as well. Without either, you can get needle scorch. Needle scorch usually does not kill the tree, but you can lose up to a year's growth. Needles grow wood. You have to protect them.
Needles and leaves grow wood. They are the growth factory. In my estimation, one of the most common mistakes that timber growers make is that they allow their trees crowns to get too small from competition, i.e., too many trees vying for the resources needed to grow, light, water, and nutrients. Without the needle or leaf area to fuel photosynthesis, the tree's growth slows down. You have more stems, more pulpwood or low grade, small weak crowns, and less high value sawtimber. It also take longer to get the trees to the desired crop size. Time is money (old saying). The gist of all this is manage your crowns.
I agree, I see a lot of thick fir left for decades, acres and acres. Small diameter, short crowns, full of rot, junk wood. Not even good pulp. You have to keep thinning, it's not a one time deal. The trouble sometimes is getting rid of the residue off the thinning. How much firewood can you burn a year? Something has to pay for the thinning. ;D
Not all areas have a pulpwood market which makes proper thinning a challenge for sure.
Well, it is that time of the year again. Time to burn. I burned a 30 year old pine plantation today, in fact, the very same one that was the original subject of this thread 12 years ago. Still at it :).
Here is the pre-burn condition:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2654.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1548725565)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2655.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1548725626)
First thing is to start a back burn (burn into the wind) to create a burned area from the firebreak. In this pic, you can see the smoke from the backfire in the background.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2653.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1548725770)
After I got about 30 to 40 feet of burned area from the firebreak, I set the headfire. The headfire is with the wind and moves at a pretty good clip. It generates a lot of heat which is required to kill the 2" - 3" diameter hardwoods.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2656.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1548725869)
Now the headfire is picking up some steam.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2660.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1548725907)
Here are the post burn results.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2661.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1548725963)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2662.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1548726022)
The humidity was perfect, and the wind was perfect. The smoke plume trajectory was perfect. This one went very well. This is about the 6th burn on this plantation.
Looks good, I'm glad it's dry enough to get some burning done somewhere.
Wow, nice and clean under them pine. :)
Do you guys need to submit burn plans down your way to the Forest Service or township?
It is clean because of the repeated burns. This spring, the forest floor will green up with a lot of herbaceous plants and blackberry briars and such making it very good for the wildlife. Without the burning, the hardwoods, mainly sweetgum in the understory shades everything out and you do not get that food plants that the wildlife needs.
No requirement for a published plan. However, you do have to contact the Forestry Commission to get a burn permit, and you have to notify the County non-emergency 911 as to where and when you are burning.
Sounds similar to here. Now we have to even have a plan for a grass fire. Too many people set them grass fires and let them burn into the forest which get torched because of all the ladder fuels. So they had to clamp down.
Very nice, WDH. Breaks my heart-when down in S. Florida-to seer all that remains of the beautiful slash pine woods is now choked with invasives and native junk. No fire allowed in far too many areas of that state...as development swallows it whole. Can't burn like they used to....or like nature used to. Those would be very nice stands-those S. Florida slash pine stands-if only fire could still run through them.
Fire can also do an amazing job of site-prep; Where my white-cedar stands are now thick and green, the woods that was there previously burned during the 1930s. That set the stage for rapid invasion of white-cedar, white pine, and paper birch, as the seeds now had a blackened, nutrient-rich, mineral soil to land on and germinate.
tom
There was a cedar woods fire across my woodlot back around 1910 and big old 30-38" (measured them) aspen grew up after on the fire ground with red maple and new cedars that were rail sized when we cut there 30 years ago. The aspens grew about 90 feet tall, and towered above anything else. Didn't take many to make a truck load. Cut and loaded each day a load of aspen to send down to Houltan, Maine in the evenings in February. 300 cords of it on about 10 acres. It grew back and was 10" again, until Arthur knocked it all down in a tangle. Shallow rooted there and on the wet side. Of course aspen is real shallow rooted anyway. I seen wind knock it over on good deep well drained soil to. I find the suckered stuff isn't as nice though as that seed grown aspen, too much canker.
Swamp, my woods has big, declining trembling aspen in it too. And generally, it seems your NB location and the NE WI location of my woods are largely similar mixes. I'm just over the line (in this state's vegetation communities) toward the "mixed-wood" forest type....many hardwoods but also many conifers. In winter, the conifer groves look black from any distance, as one goes down the road. Of course, white-cedar retains so much lower foliage/branches...makes for the thickest forest type I've ever seen.
The chunk of woods (cedar swamp) I own continues past my property line, in all three directions. To the west, there are very large, tall white-cedar. In many cases, a paper birch has also grown up right alongside the cedar tree. The trunks of the birch tend to twist around the cedar's trunks. Most odd to see not one but many replications of this same pairing. Buddies for life!
In this area there is also a large blow-down. Huge white pine, white cedar, and birch all tangled up in a big mess. But young trees already pushing thru.
NE WI and the U. P. of MI are full of white-cedar, depending on what area one is in.
tom
Them white cedar grow like this, but takes 300 years. ;D
A 36"'er here. They don't cut them on public land, so when they leave them behind on a harvest block, most fall down in the wind. I don't like thinning on spruce blocks when them big cedar are laid out into the spruce trees to cut around. Hemlock, same deal. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_white-cedar3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1339440541)
There is a USFS group called "The Cedar Club", based in Maine, but who are studying the problems of poor white-cedar regeneration across New England and the Lakes States. I'm a member...I guess...but I don't hear much. Wish they'd contact me in that, at least where my land is, w-c can regenerate with ease, pretty much anywhere. Upland, low areas...it will show up as volunteers in the old-field setting.
White-cedar should indeed be protected throughout its range. Some of these tree species...if you've happened to grow up in the area where they are common...will make one think they are common all over. If one looks at the range map for Thuja occidentalis on USDA PLANTS database or equivalent map, you will see-for us states-siders, that it is really a tree of SE Canada! Where its range dips down into the US are areas I like to call Canada South areas! And quite limited in distribution. Limestone areas best for this tree.
tom
Historically how were the natural stands ignited lightning? aboriginals?.
As for the Florida Slash Pine the nimbys never learn Australia, California sooner or later fire is coming and the fuel loading will determine the outcome.
Al
Yes, lightning and Indians doing some burns down there. Agree, folks never learn, but now it's just the preponderance of development in S. Florida ruining everything. As a confirmed "northern boy", I still absolutely used to love kicking around down near Fort Myers. So much natural beauty down there, so little appreciation among the fast-buck natives.
tom
Quote from: wisconsitom on January 29, 2019, 12:48:34 PM
Yes, lightning and Indians doing some burns down there. Agree, folks never learn, but now it's just the preponderance of development in S. Florida ruining everything. As a confirmed "northern boy", I still absolutely used to love kicking around down near Fort Myers. So much natural beauty down there, so little appreciation among the fast-buck natives.
tom
I'm not so sure it is the "fast buck natives" so much as it's the out of state corporate developers.
Most any native you talk with would just as soon most of the development never happened.
Yes, that is a better way to say it. I know some down-home folks down there, people more or less like myself that just want peace, quiet, and a rural situation, that isn't being sliced, diced, and sold. I agree.
tom
that's a nice back and forth, learning a lot gents
Back when I could afford to visit S. Fl, in the Fort Myers area, I was well-aware that land speculators, often from places like CA and other locations thousands of miles away, were behind the rush to convert every last square foot into parking lots, roads, and tacky housing. or even "fancy" housing, it would make no difference to me. I see "land development" as the closing off of possibilities for that said parcel. Tick tock tick tock, there went some more.
Much much, much much earlier, I found myself one summer at a music camp on Vancouver Island, near Nanaimo. As a youth, but already inflected with love of forests, I walked off-campus one day, far enough to come to where all the new roads had been pushed in and all the "Lot for Sale " signs had gone up. Made me furious. These For Sale signs were all based out of an outfit in Seattle, WA. I was in Canada.
tom
If you got high deer numbers you get less cedar regen. Not many deer around here and my cedar ground grows back like this. It's slow, but it grows. Balm usually grows in with it or other aspens. Balm here, but those big aspens where growing in with the cedar to. I could hit one from where this picture was taken, with a rock, off to the right of it. Next door was a young cedar thicket until the beavers flooded the lot beside me. I think some of those 'no cedar regen guys' lack some history of certain sites they are looking at. I have seen some cedar cut and grow back to to thick raspberry bushes. They had to be there before or the seed wouldn't be in the ground. Same with pin cherry. They lasts years in the ground. Yet the trees we cut now, many of them grew back after fire and after early colonizers lost their hold. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_cedar-regen2~0.jpg)
Another parallel-you mention "balm" and I think you mean balsam poplar. I didn't mention it earlier but that species is very prevalent in my wet zone too. Always seems to be a companion of white-cedar wherever it grows. Great-smelling tree! And really an "aspen", with rhizomatous growth (root-suckering ability), not a poplar despite name.
tom
PS...I doubt the FS and associated folks who are concerned about w-c are off-track; Beware of shifting baseline effect, whereby many of us tend to view what we saw in our childhoods as somehow being "the norm" for a given area. Thus, I'm pretty sure that today's kids around this town will "know" that this area was always farmland! Likewise, many of us "know" how things "are supposed to be" because we're basing our feelings on what we've experienced just in our lifetimes, usually early in those lifetimes. Much distortion of the truth can thus occur.
My best sources-like the big map on my office wall-compiled by the original land surveyors of this state, who took copious notes, indicates that species like white-cedar and say, eastern hemlock, once covered vastly more acreage than anything any of us have ever seen. Just as most folks cannot conceive of the size of the trees that were logged off in places like this, and no doubt, NB.
tom
I've had some government forestry guys make claims of low regen and they always mention the deer pressure down in their area of concern. I also had a woodlot owner one time that wanted to plant one of those cedar sites until I showed him the spruce and cedar growing in the moss cover. The cedar seedlings look like moss. :D
Also, the big cedar like I showed, they aren't in cedar thickets, they are upland white cedar growing with maple and yellow birch and white ash. They are low distribution like a white pine here and there in the maple woods. Yeah you can get stands of them, like in the swamps. Happens with hemlock and pine to on well drained sites. It all comes down to site conditions, the dry duff kills a lot of seedlings in the hot sun. My cedar regen photo is wetter ground, cedar all around, big stands close bye with tons of seed available. Usually competing with cattails and golden rod and raspberry, a dry organic duff on top like dried peat moss. Clear that off and your into old dead roots, under that course gravel mixed in the black dirt but firm ground unless you hit a spring hole and then calcareous rocks or saturated powder lime. That lime is like clay, holds water, but it ain't. One farmer dredged it for farm fields for years (since the 70's) where cedar grew on top (Upper Kent Lime Works).
Back to the seedling:
There is this
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_PlantID1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1192063258)
Then this happens and you find out it wasn't moss. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_PlantID2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1192063259)
Still more parallels, Swamp; In a clearing in our white-cedar stand, there is a sedge meadow, full of things like Joe Pye weed, a couple different types of bulrush, some cattails, swamp aster, and some RCG (reed canary grass-the only invasive plant we've got on our property). And in mossy areas there, very near old cedars, there is a carpet of seedlings like that which you show. And even just from two old landscape specimens I have in my yard, I can say they seed with abandon. And those seeds readily germinate, especially in some limestone screenings paths I've got. Your mention of lime ties in directly with what we see here. The tree is a well-known calciphile.
I don't dispute this tree's ability to produce lots of viable seeds and seedlings. I see it all the time. But that's not the same thing as successful regeneration. It is the latter that these groups seek remedies for. And deer def. play a major part in this species decline from its former land coverage. It appears many alder thickets and other shrubby areas in the north are former w-c stands that were cut or burned...and have never come back.
There are places where w-c is regenerating adequately. My land is in one such area. It just seems there's so much w-c around, and still enough farm crop residues...we can plant a sapling anywhere up on our hill and it will grow unmolested. And rapidly! Not a slow-grower when situated on well-drained, upland, but moist and calcareous soil. From about where my land is to all the way around the central and eastern U.P....to where you are, with plenty of gaps in-between, these upland w-c's are present, just as you say, as scattered components of the mixed-wood forest. And down in the swamp.
I like to look at range maps for various plants. A quick glance at the range of white-cedar will show that it is mainly a Canadian species, and that those places where its range dips down into the US are quite limited. From other tree boards I've been on, it has quickly become apparent that many US tree guys only know this plant from its many landscape cultivars. Surprisingly not well-known beyond a pretty small area.
tom
Quote from: wisconsitom on January 31, 2019, 08:33:56 AM
I don't dispute this tree's ability to produce lots of viable seeds and seedlings. I see it all the time. But that's not the same thing as successful regeneration. It is the latter that these groups seek remedies for.
tom
Well you got the seeds, you need the right conditions is all. Goes back to what I said about site. The duff dries out in those clear cuts and if your micro climate induces prolonged drought the seedlings die. That duff and soil has to retain water. Also the deer are part of site conditions. Site conditions is above ground as well as below ground. All integral. Clear cutting may not be their answer, try something else. And maybe some more deer tags. ;D And who knows, maybe climate is changing enough that the cedar are retreating north in those areas. Although in this area, the 30 year data on growing zones recently published is no different then the last 30 were. I never went from a 3a to a 3b for instance. Paulownia for instance still won't invade my woods. Probably gotta be more like a zone 5 or 6 before I worry. :D
How right you are about the cedar. My MIL wanted some cedar broughs for a window box and asked me for some. This must of been 15 years ago. I said sure,that will be easy. I walked and walked my land. I had never noticed that there was no small cedar on my land. I finally had to go back to the house and get something to stand on to reach some branches. I know I went into the bog too. I have some tall cedar,16 inches through would be big one on my land. I have alot of them scattered throughout my land. I had my land logged 3 times,so far,and each time I end up with a pile of cedar.
Of course you guys know that you confuse the heck out of this southern boy when you say White Cedar and I am thinking Chamaecyparis thyoides and you guys are talking about Thuja occidentalis.
Both are Cypress family but man it has happened so many times :D
How true, nativewolf! At least know this: I did tour an Atlantic white-cedar swamp once as a kid, and it was fantastic. But in any message with my name on it, in this forum, and where I'm talking white-cedar, you are correct-it is Thuja, not Chamaecyparis, of which I speak.
Getting back to that "Cedar Club" of the USFS and others, I sure wish they'd come tour my land...or just land in that area generally, it doesn't have to be mine. There, in that part of the world, white-cedar is still able to regenerate pretty much unimpeded. It overlies the same geographic area of the state where soils higher in calcium and magnesium also contribute to especially-good white-cedar growth and development. An important species, it deserves additional study, and is in fact, the least-studied of eastern N. American commercially-important tree types.
tom
Didn't Michigan come out with a handbook or guidebook on managing northern white cedar not long ago. @Ron Scott (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=2)
I find that our own forest site classification, as deficient as it is, was never used or updated. It was published back in 83 or 84 I think. A limited number printed and never seen since the 90's again. In BC, site classification is the basis of a lot of their management. And used to be even more so during the Forest Practices Code years. I think most of the classification here is road side, put in a road, dig ditches. See what is growing under the trees. Done. Still going to plant spruce by golly. Or let the regen do it's thing and then thin it. More and more of the latter is still planted, filled with spruce on crown land on trails and even in maple thickets. Call it plantation and drop the pre-commercial thinning rates. :D
Yes, The Michigan DNR and USFS have been studying Cedar management and its regeneration ever since I can remember which has been some time. Michigan has updated its management guidelines a few years ago with concerns for the effects of white tailed deer on its regeneration.
When I worked on the old Marquette National Forest and Hiawatha National Forests on the east end of Michigan's Upper Peninsula 1961-67, northern white cedar was a popular commercial timber species at the time and a featured species within the deer wintering areas where cedar regeneration was greatly affected and still is.
We did a lot of research with cedar regeneration in the form of strip cutting and burning, etc. and we are still discussing cedar regeneration. As stated, much of our northern white cedar was on the limestone soils of the Soo and St. Ignace Ranger Districts of the east end of the UP.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/NorthernWhiteCedarNCS_520378_7.pdf
I've reviewed the MI materials. It's as good as anything out there but you will note...or already have...that a great deal of uncertainty will be found in this, and all existing guides. The USFS group, which is, BTW, cooperating with WI DNR, is, I think, attempting to combine and integrate all known data, but to do additional work to see what can be done to enhance regeneration of this species. I don't know much else about their activities, as I have had no correspondences for about a year now. Deer are the issue.
W-C is a very common tree in Menominee, Delta, and Schoolcraft Counties of Michigan's UP as well, likely more counties. In more westerly locations in the UP, it is common in boggy areas, often with stunted black spruce and tamarack. The color of these plants (white-cedar) in this more western area is generally not good, and growth is tiny. These are more acidic areas and less well-suited to the species maximum growth potential. But to the east, the tree really shines. There are, of course, nice cedars in that more western area, but they will be confined to streambanks and the like. The area where I once lived and worked-the Watersmeet/Paulding area, was such an area of less-than-great w-c growth and occurrence, with a few nice trees around waterfalls, etc.
Where my land is in WI is in the "cedar belt". There, more neutral soils with decent levels of cations, nutrients like calcium and magnesium, make for better growth and health of this tree. White-cedars I have transplanted are able to almost keep up with Norway spruce in terms of height increment. That's saying something, given NS's fast growth rate.
tom
I've not seen that kind of growth here on pure cedar stands on cut sites. It takes 20 years to get 4 meters. Now in old fields seeding in, or on the lawn that changes. A NW only takes about 10 years to 4 meters and balsam fir grows faster than spruce here, 12-18" leader growth after 3-5 years or so on good sites, unsuppressed. They look kinda funny with those bushy buts, then boom a broom handle the first year they take off. In my local area, what isn't hardwood or mixed is a cedar stand or was. An awfully lot have been clear cut on private land. A lot have been told cut off, something better will grow back. I haven't seen it, cedar grown is cedar ground. ;D We have a lot of calcium and magnesium in the ground here. Some wells have magnesium sulphate in the water, stinks like eggs, drinkable though. Found this big chunk behind the house when rock picking the field. I took a hammer and beat off the sulphur precipitated on the out side, sure knew it was sulphur, stunk. The magnesium shines like metal. ;) Well driller says lots of it in well water, not at this house, but in Grafton it was in the water. Everyone had it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_MagSulf.jpg)
The largest known northern white cedar specimen is 112 ft tall and 69 in. diameter, on South Manitou Is, MI within Leelanau County. Oldest specimens in southern Ontario, over 1600 years old. Oldest Canadian trees. :)
[sources Wikipedia and Science Olympiad (Vincent Liu)]
January 2021 and time to burn again. One area was last burned 3 years ago and the other area 2 years ago. This burn was for the area burned 3 years ago. The stand was planted in 1998, so it is 23 years old. Lots of chinese privet and sweetgum and volunteer pine reproduction in the understory. Some parts of the stand had much more sweetgum and privet than what you see in these pics:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_3970.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1611361174)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_3971.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1611361233)
Conditions were very good for the burn. No rain for 4 days, 35% humidity, and just enough but not too much wind. Only get a few days each winter like this. The fire was hot, but not too hot.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_3975.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1611361266)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_3976.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1611361294)
The aftermath show some of the understory that will be set back by the fire. Lots of sweetgum and invasive privet. Sweetgum has no wildlife food value and fire is about the only way to control privet at a stand level.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_3986.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1611361346)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_3977.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1611361471)
This was a 50 acre burn. I have another 50 acres to do when the conditions get right again.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63353/20190514_180408.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1611365719)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63353/20190510_125501.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1611365703)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63353/20190510_123142.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1611365792)
Prescribed fire is the best
That looks like fun.
From the pictures, the mature pines look to be a good distance apart. Will they be thinned again, or what is the next step on the management plan?
How do you manage the firebreaks so it doesn't spread? It looks like a pretty hot fire, especially to kill sweet gum.
What is your harvest target / age WDH?
These trees have been thinned twice already and will be thinned a third time. There are about 80 trees/acre in this stand. As to harvest age, it is general industrial forestry practice to clearcut and replant plantation Lob-lloy at age 27 to 30, but I do not plan to do that as I enjoy the stands and the habitat that they provide. As long as they are healthy and continue to grow, it will be at least 10 to 15 years before harvest if I am still around at that point in time.
Firebreaks are harrowed and patrolled during the burn. I use the same ones each time so all I have to do is make a circuit with the tractor and forks to remove any fallen trees/brush since the last burn then re-harrow the breaks. On this burn there were two fire setters, me and a forester friend, and three people on patrol, one of those also a forester friend with experience. It is important to have the proper help to keep tabs on things or things can get very interesting if the fire jumps the firebreaks and very bad things can happen.
Thank you for sharing the burn pictures. Burning, thinning and thoughtful management lead to good results and aesthetically pleasing forests that are both productive and beneficial to wildlife. It looks like your fire was running at a good rate. I bet it did not take too long. Does the Georgia Forest Service offer burning for landowners? I think the rate in Fla. by the forest service is $20/acre.
Glad the fire did what you wanted to get done, and glad the weather cooperated. And great to have good help around when you need it. smiley_thumbsup
Great pictures.
Yes, I believe that the Georgia Forestry Commission will bring equipment and assist in a burn. Not sure of the cost, but $20/acre sounds about right.
Texas costs are higher, by 50%
In my area we used to control burn the pasture ground to control ceders and a few other small trees ever couple year. We have so many acreages around my area now the fire dept doesn't like to issue burn permits. About the only thing now that gets a control burn is CRP land ever five years and they told me on some new sign up I have starting this year I will only hay it at the five year mark and no burning too many houses around. Its even getting tough were my home place is to get a burn permit to burn brush piles. No problem over in the next county were we have land.
Can you brush hog it during those 5 years? I sure hope so, because it won't be good hay otherwise.
Quote from: Southside on January 24, 2021, 12:12:21 PM
Can you brush hog it during those 5 years? I sure hope so, because it won't be good hay otherwise.
I asked that question when we were signing the contract and never got a straight answer. When it gets hayed it will be what we call grinder hay and will probably go to a feed lot and get mixed in with other better kinds of feed and mostly get used for a filler.
Quote from: WDH on January 23, 2021, 08:41:23 PM
Yes, I believe that the Georgia Forestry Commission will bring equipment and assist in a burn. Not sure of the cost, but $20/acre sounds about right.
Been a while since I used their services they brought a small dozer, JD 350 to cut fire breaks at a very attractive price. $/hr for machine and operator based on elapsed time on the machine. Even loaned me a drip torch. I know it's fashionable to cuss the gubmint, but GFC folks are good people.
Ita true.. Govt is too big for the worker bees to be all bad. ;D
The park manager at O'Leno State Park is dilligent about prescribed burns. To promote the seeding and propagation of the native wire grass, the growing season burns are used. I think they are buring on about a three year rotation and maybe more frequently on some sites. While on a walk Tuesday afternoon I took a couple of pictures of a burn that was done on some Florida flatwoods. The wire grass is more prevalent on the uplands portions of the forest.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/5C86F300-3F84-4239-ADE4-E94FCED4450B.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1689426578)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/D7E88B12-3895-483B-8298-C60DCC0855D0.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1689426607)
Some of the areas burned were much thicker than this but even at 2:30 in the afternoon, when I'd stop in the thicker areas, the bugs knew that it was feeding time. I ran into several deer, some spotted fawns and even a pack of eight wild/feral dogs that were a bit over knee high. They startled me a bit but eventually they went their own way. With the amount of ticks in these woods, I'd be inclined to burn often.