Small excavator in the woods

[DDW_OR]

i also built a job box for the logging tools and chainsaws
built it with two 6x6's so i can get the forks under it

yes there are 4 forks, makes it into a tractor-pitchfork




 

 

 

[Walnut Beast]

Nice 👍

[Southside]

All I can say is if you do go that route put ROPS and FOPS protection on the machine.  Those cabs are only designed to keep the rain out and the radio noise in.  I have bumped dead pines with my fellerbuncher and knocked out a 16' or so piece and when they smack the cab she rocks like a Tonka toy.  Jump the daylights out of you but being that Big Pig has a full FOPS system on it all it does is make noise.  I know some of those would flatten a mini-ex cab.  

[snowstorm]

this could get expensive in a hurry. rubber tracks would not stand the strain. steel may not either. they are not built for this. triple grousers will fill with snow turning to ice quick. wide pads would be the last thing you would want. they put more strain on the track chain. that isnt going to be big enough to begin with. no track guards. tracks will come off. i know it sounded like a good idea. i though the same thing 30 yrs ago when i converted a excavator to woods work. never again

[Ed_K]

 When I worked for the highway dept, I talked them into buying a grapple with the swivel rotor and we pined it on the back of the backhoe bucket where to pin is for using a chain. They use it all the time cleaning road side trees and loading into the dump truck. Last summer they used it for putting culverts in too 8) ;).

[PoginyHill]

My excavator is mid-sized, about 16,000lbs. I was lucky enough to stumble across this rather locally. 1990's, so it's not very compact for it's weight - but does make it easier to work on. Came with a hydraulic thumb and 24" tracks. You can see the rocks I deal with in this pic. Size and power have been perfect for my application. The counterweight swings well over the tracks, so being careful when swinging I've had to learn the hard way. This cost me about $22k. Hour meter shows 4,000+ hrs, but doesn't work. Probably more like 6-8,000 hrs.

 

[Skeans1]

I've track equipment out in the brush shovel logging about like what you're talking about. Steel tracks are must single or double bar grousers with the narrowest set available to keep the power up on the travel system. Next full rock guards are a must otherwise you'll be putting tracks on left and right all the time. After that you'll probably bust off the upper rollers so either slides or bottom rollers put up top. Every pan and plate on the under belly needs to be about 3/8" to 1/2" thick minimum to keep from being bent as easily. After which the whole  right side plus the rear needs guarding which can be fun on a non tail swing. After all of that you have full cab guard with screening on every window don't skip any of this or it could cost you a lot of time or money down the road.

[Iwawoodwork]

After  fully reading this post and most of Q,s other post many of you are forgetting that the trees that Q handles are quite small compares to what we in the NW or east US are used to plus the ground does not appear as rough, At the time of use the ground will be frozen and/or snow covered, With his small wood and doing the corridor\trail yarding will not be exposed to the larger trees. 
I have a Hitachi ex50 with thumb, rubber tracks, and a blade with the half cab (Not good for limbs and brush) but handles logs with the thumb where you have an open area to rotate 180 degrees, decking or loading. Mounting a winch, preferably hydraulic, would be a great help in moving the logs to the trail side for skidding.  With your small wood I think a 6000 to 10,000 LB machine would do fine and on packed snowmobile trails rubber or metal tracks will be fine. The rubber tracks are a plus in dry fire season over the steel for me.
I have used tongs on my Komatsu pc 60for loading logs but it is slower than a thumb,
The excavator would work great for your decking and also putting the logs in the water. With your logging trails only being about a mile out per trail the excavator travel would not be a big issue. On the smaller excavators like my EX50 the tracks are solid rubber , not rubber on steel and relatively inexpensive to replace.  In previous pictures of your logging I did not see ground conditions that warrant rock guards or cab guarding beyond an enclosed cab.

[Mattjohndeere2]

Having both a 16k lb excavator and a dozer, and spent a little time in the woods with both, I would say your better off with a little dozer with a winch in the woods. The excavator is great for making trails and moving the brush and whatnot, but when it comes to hooking onto a tree and getting it somewhere, especially when you say it's pretty crowded in your woods, a dozer/winch combo will be much more effective. Swinging the excavator around gets tricky in tight woods, and it's just easier to plow over trees if necessary with the dozer and winch anything in any direction. Plus, you get a good hook of logs and chances are you can still travel a bit faster with the dozer than with the excavator. Plus steering clutches are quite a bit cheaper than final drives...

[Walnut Beast]

Having both a 16k lb excavator and a dozer, and spent a little time in the woods with both, I would say your better off with a little dozer with a winch in the woods. The excavator is great for making trails and moving the brush and whatnot, but when it comes to hooking onto a tree and getting it somewhere, especially when you say it's pretty crowded in your woods, a dozer/winch combo will be much more effective. Swinging the excavator around gets tricky in tight woods, and it's just easier to plow over trees if necessary with the dozer and winch anything in any direction. Plus, you get a good hook of logs and chances are you can still travel a bit faster with the dozer than with the excavator. Plus steering clutches are quite a bit cheaper than final drives...

Good recommendation but maybe he just needs to get both a excavator and dozer then he would be really set. It's just money 💰😂

[Walnut Beast]

My excavator is mid-sized, about 16,000lbs. I was lucky enough to stumble across this rather locally. 1990's, so it's not very compact for it's weight - but does make it easier to work on. Came with a hydraulic thumb and 24" tracks. You can see the rocks I deal with in this pic. Size and power have been perfect for my application. The counterweight swings well over the tracks, so being careful when swinging I've had to learn the hard way. This cost me about $22k. Hour meter shows 4,000+ hrs, but doesn't work. Probably more like 6-8,000 hrs.

That is a dandy 👍💪

[Mattjohndeere2]

Having both a 16k lb excavator and a dozer, and spent a little time in the woods with both, I would say your better off with a little dozer with a winch in the woods. The excavator is great for making trails and moving the brush and whatnot, but when it comes to hooking onto a tree and getting it somewhere, especially when you say it's pretty crowded in your woods, a dozer/winch combo will be much more effective. Swinging the excavator around gets tricky in tight woods, and it's just easier to plow over trees if necessary with the dozer and winch anything in any direction. Plus, you get a good hook of logs and chances are you can still travel a bit faster with the dozer than with the excavator. Plus steering clutches are quite a bit cheaper than final drives...

Good recommendation but maybe he just needs to get both a excavator and dozer then he would be really set. It's just money 💰😂

Haha very true! Having both is definitely nice. They are just tools and both have their purpose. From experience, cuz I find myself doing it at times - I just know that if it was only an excavator you had in the woods, you start doing things that it isn't meant to do, like pushing trees or stumps, or hooking onto logs and pulling them.  Enough of that and the final drives will most likely give up. You can beat on a dozer pretty good in the woods and can do just about anything except reach high, and it'll take the beating. Get into wet areas and instead of walking an excavator out there, sit on solid ground and winch everything in. When it comes to hills, much safer with the dozer and winch. Now I've never used an actual skidder machine, supposedly that would be even more effective than the dozer - but I think when things get wet and soft the dozer does a lot less ruining of the logging trails than a wheeled vehicle

[Mattjohndeere2]

My excavator is mid-sized, about 16,000lbs. I was lucky enough to stumble across this rather locally. 1990's, so it's not very compact for it's weight - but does make it easier to work on. Came with a hydraulic thumb and 24" tracks. You can see the rocks I deal with in this pic. Size and power have been perfect for my application. The counterweight swings well over the tracks, so being careful when swinging I've had to learn the hard way. This cost me about $22k. Hour meter shows 4,000+ hrs, but doesn't work. Probably more like 6-8,000 hrs.

That's a nice machine. I have pretty much the same exact thing. Hydraulic thumb is a must!


 

[Quebecnewf]

Thanks for all the info guys it's making me think about it more .

I need to explain a bit more maybe how I see this working .

 The trail and the cutting will be all done by chain saw . 

We would open up say a 50 ft long section just a bit wider than the machine . The machine then goes forward and stacks the fire wood logs and good logs on each side that this cutting has produced . The slash is placed on the ground and used as a bedding to smooth the trail . 

The machine backs out to a safe distance and we start working blocks on each side of the trail . Taking down some (log trees ) and older scrap ( firewood ) trees . The machine moves back in and pulls these trees to the trail where they are processed ( logs cut of and tops cut into 8 ft lengths as firewood . ) 

At no time will we be pushing over trees or clearing a bunch of hang ups that could fall on the machine ( an excavator cannot run) . We will use the machine to dig out stumps as needed but the ( road) will be mainly made of a bed of limbs . 

As Iwawoodwork said . These are small trees mostly . The ground is soft and uneven but not rough in that sense . We will have lots and lots of small wood to fill in and make the " road" level . 

The excavator does not forward the logs this is done with snowmobile later . The excavator will then be used to load the logs and the firewood into the sleighs .

As soon as the spring breaks and the thaw starts the excavator will be parked next to the log piles by the shoreline and used to place the logs in the water for rafting home to the mill . 

Quebecnewf 

[Walnut Beast]

So what excavator do you plan on getting?

[Quebecnewf]

So what excavator do you plan on getting?

Now that is the question . I'm looking at different ones . Maybe a JD or a Kubota .
Shipping into our area is a big cost . 
Any good brand name will do I'm thinking . I'm sure like everything guys swear by different brands .
What are you're thoughts on models ? 
Quebecnewf 

[Walnut Beast]

Yanmar was the pioneer of the mini. There are several really good ones. I would figure out what size your going to get and then really compare 

[teakwood]

a excavator will be perfect for you. maybe with a winch, a quickcoupler with loggrapple, tiltbucket, ripper you can spend two fortunes at useful attachments 

[mike_belben]

I would put two ripper shanks on the outside edges of the blade for parking pawls into the dirt and put a 12k electric or hydraulic freewheeling winch with 4 slides, mounted ontop the blade where its easy to fix a birdnest or flip the neutral lever.  Dont use the chinese fairlead, make a good roller system or buy a delrin hawse and angle the winch mount up at the next part im gonna describe.


weld a mount tab on the inside face of the elbow made by the stick and boom as high itll go without interference. so that you can hang a swivel pulley for a cable redirect on the apex of the boom that goes out either to the left or right without bind or cable issues.  the bucket is parked with the live thumb grappling tight on a stump so the load is not trying to slew the carbody around and break the swing gear. Screen all the cab glass for sure.


3 reasons for this rigging suggestion:

1- winching with the machine at a slight angle so that a snapped cable and slides has a better chance of flying into the boom instead of the cab.

2- a low mounted cable just pulls logs into the dirt, so you want it up as high as you can get.  Easily this doubles winching capacity of small winches in my experience.

3- winching straight in from a stationary location is like reeling a lure right straight through a tangle of weeds.  Only brute force can succeed in that tactic but its an inefficient mess that breaks fishing line and cable alike.  With the tackle up on the boom as i have described you will be creating a fishing pole that with just a two finger pressure on the sticks can change the entire alignment on the fly in a dynamic log fishing tournament through the weeds.


 I did it with winch on the grapple of my bobcat and the results of logfishing have to be seen to be believed.  There is no way to have a lower impact that i can think of.  You will be able to Z and corkscrew through the woods without rubbing anything at all.  



I think your idea is perfect.  You just need to add cables so that the machine is a self propelled micro yarder reeling to it from every direction on a perfect brush trail only to preserve the machine.  Anything to spare the UC.  Winches are what you want to design in and wear out.  The machine should just be an achor with an engine making voltage and hydraulic pressure for cable drums to reel while the excavator moves as little as possible and stays tight.  Let the cables do the travelling, not the tracks.  The excavator only moves to reposition or redirect a cable. 


Me personally i would put two winches, both on the blade, to try a mini skyline carriage for the firewood limb collection.  The clusters of many light pieces would be sped up alot, id just use carabiners and prusic loops made from my old rope scraps.. I do that all the time for sub 8" wood, much better than chain.  Buttlogs would probably pull the skyline to the ground.


Also if theres 2 winches and 2 tackle sets, one operator can sit in the cab while the groundman rigs one cable.  Operator starts reeling that in while groundman starts pulling 2nd cable to another hitch.  By the time he is done the first hitch is in and he walks back, unchokes and heads out again.  It will double production with a good help.


Both of you lay trees down together one day or morning. then yard them all and move ahead.  Youll be putting up more wood than ever before.


Brand wise, takeuchi, wacker, daewoo, doosan and ihi are often forgotten about.  Whatever machine you buy make sure nothing will stop you from putting a drill or welder to it.  You are buying a dirt machine, it will need conversion to a woods machine.  You dont want reluctance creeping into your heart when you look at new paint or warranty fine print.  Added metal may mean someones life, thats the warranty we need most.

[mike_belben]

Im not sure why i do all that typing instead of just sketch it from the getgo.  





I made an error in this sketch.   the winches have to go on the base of boom. You cant swing the carbody if the winches are on the blade due to hoses or cables.  Unless you put a selector valve on the blade cylinder ports to run the winch but then u need to get out every time u need to switch. 


  I would go with a steel track midi over a mini for the more stable base, stronger physical structure, wider blade, bigger power, cooling and fuel capacity.  If needed i would do pin on stabilizers to widen the blade base to help prevent tip.  Also a boom thats on a left right pivot for tight work would be very helpful rather than just carbody swinging it.  Youll want to tuck the crane in tight at times to get around keepers.  




A small ryans style rotator grapple with a barsaw for bucking, sortingg and piling would be the cats meow future addition.  This would be the rambo knife of TSI. Too bad no one makes it.

[mike_belben]

   I know electric winches arent popular with loggers but theyre worth considering for tsi or small softwood stuff.  

  Dirt cheap and easy to put as many as you want.  Putting dual hydraulic winches is big, big bucks, and you may not have room for the valves on a mini.

   The duty cycle on electric winches is lower but with two winches to swap back and forth your human duty cycle is lesser than theirs, i can promise that.. I have never moved fast enough to overheat my junky old pummelled 8k.   A chinese 12k is about $500 by the time its on the machine and a US made is maybe $1500.  I use old stick welder cable with anderson connectors.

 
   Dual deep cycle batteries will be sufficient without an alternator change for nonstop all day winching.  My tractor has one standard car battery and i have to bring rpm up a bit to protect the battery by feeding it amps.

  The bobcat has dual group 31s and i never needed more than idle on a delco 12SI alternator.. Maybe 80 amps?  Idk.  But im not even in the machine most of the time for winching.  You want dual batts to keep voltage high for the winch windings to not draw too many amps at lower volts.  The batteries get charged up when i reposition so its purely idle work with minimal fuel consumption.   Ive never hurt the bobcat batteries or stalled the winch.



Hydraulic winches will have you reeling at full throttle to make the gpm for full line speed.  More cost, effort and fuel to go hydraulic, yes hydraulic is better in every single way but hydraulic cant compete with electric on a cost basis at all.  You cant even buy the hyd winch for the price of being in the woods running the electric one.. Never mind install cost.


I dont see any logs in your pile that even a chicom electric winch wont laugh at.




























These are visual representations of just a few of the hardwoods my $300 smittybilt junk 8k has reeled in, so the proof is right there.  All oak except for the maples with red rope.  I am being very adamant on this because it is extremely common for the forestry forum to advise a person to spend $30k plus on every little issue that completely defeats the purpose of doing the job yourself.. To save money.  For the kind of money we collectively recommend spending here every job could be hired out cheaper.   There is no point in spending more than you have, in order to have more than you needed in the first place. You dont need a D6 to fetch tops or a cat 330 to dig out the hedges. You dont need a 15k hydraulic winch on a 3k excavator, itll just fall over or slide.  My winch will drag my bobcat or flip my tractor when its on something it cant budge.




I did break it once.  I winched all of these tangled tops in at once with no issue..











But then i pulled the hitch with the machine while repositioning to get around a tree,  not knowing that an 8k winch only has a 4k holding brake, which mangled.  I got a replacement from summit for $50 shipped and built this mechanical drum brake if i ever have to skid with it again, but i generally dont. I switch my chokers to the rack on my 3pt because the winch is too far back on the tractor causing wheelies.


The brake is simple if anyone wants to skid with one.

Smittybilt XRC8 logging brake - YouTube


Ive been trying to kill this winch since about 2007.  The brushes still havent worn out.  Its dragged campers, machines and vehicles with no wheels onto the trailer, etc etc.  Never snapped the cable either.  A new 12k electric... I dont think you can break one on a freestanding machine that weighs under 8k.  I have 3 of them and only use 1.  never tried to care if it breaks.. Its honestly become a challenge at this point.  I think id have to put it on the dozer to really truly break it.  Maybe i'll do that.

[Quebecnewf]

I really like the winching idea and have been beating some ideas along the same lines in my head .

I have a Portable Gas Winch with capstan head . We use it all the time to winch our logs .

Could fab up a mount to have it clipped on the excavator . Run two winching lines at the same time with this setup . While your winching in one the chaser is running and setting the other . The excavator is as you said just a movable base for your winch . I KNOW this would work great . One of the issues now when we winch in a bunch of logs we have to then pile them as well with the winch . This is a slow process . Now the excavator becomes our movable anchor tree AND our very fast stacking system . 

Quebecnewf 

[mike_belben]

Yup.  Yarders ruled the west coast before a bajillion dollars of other tech unseated them.  A pee wee yarder with a bucket is still perfect for you.


If you put a self release snatch on the end of the bucket you can have the ground man switch your cable over to there in order to really lift your line height way up once the log is reeled in so it just fetches right up ontop the pile.










With the bobcat i can grab a pole in the grapple for a stabilizer leg to winch from max height.  This is my first try and its 2 small oaks coming out of the bottom of my former stump dump trough.  This is about as big as i could pull without any stabilizer (both whole trees are coming in at once with stumps ontop of them, just a test run) and not flip the machine but a fast line speed would mean if a log snags you can get yanked over fast if distracted.  With a prop pole it can raise a good sawlog completely in the air and not tip at all. No pics of that.


With your bucket and thumb you could easily bolt or lash together two stubs of wood for a prop to winch from 12 or 15ft high, as long as you are aimed right at the cable.  Or use that to make your skyline and then pull the choker carriage to you with another winch.


When the tree comes in and jumps up on the pile, ground man can just buck the sawlog to length right there so that your front stack is sawlog and your back stack is firewood tops without any further rehandling or piling.   The brush tips can be left to lay out the next row that youll make a main trail of,so there is work saved not having to redistribute the slash mat very far if at all. 


 I am confident this is a very workable and efficient plan from the pics ive seen of your worksite.  Your hard labor will drop and production will climb. Like you said its the time to re-rig the capstan then muscle stuff that the ex will fling on 3ozs of diesel.  Spend your money and spare your spine.






2 more benefits of electric winches.. Your machine can be flipped over or submerged and unable to run, but the winches will still work for a while to get your righted as long as the freespool handle is accessible and protected.


Having the ability to put cable up to the bucket is another must IMO.  Some day you will sink the tracks and be immobile.  If you keep moving you sink deeper.  The blade can only lift you so much or in real soup not at all.. In fact itll become a mud plow once you sink enough.


Put a cable up to the bucket all the way up in the air and pull on a tree. Youll have the leverage to lift your tracks 3 feet high via the boom valve to pile a limb mat under you.  Then spin  the carbody the other way to tip the other end of the track up and pile under that side. Now you are up ontop a log piling and with a thumb can walk yourself out of a swamp by picking and placing logs to walk onto like conventional swamp work with mats.


Im pretty excited for you man.. I hope you do it stat.  

[tawilson]

Last fall I bought a couple of quick attach ears, a couple skidsteer latch boxes and a mounting plate with the intention of making an adapter for my mini to use some of my 3 point and skidsteer attachments. There are aftermarket setups but they are pricey. Could mount a winch to one for your future excavator,  then when you decide to add a skidsteer you'll be all set. 😆

[Andries]

I'm watching the marriage made in heaven develop between Quebecnewf and mike_belben.
The lone logger on The Rock (aka Newfoundland/Labrador) and the salvage yard inventor in Middle Tennessee.
Both are clever, hardworkin', upbeat, outside-of-the-box thinkers. 
And the Forum is the matchmaker - thanks @Jeff !