Your opinionon my venture???

[Ianab]

Yeah, my thinking is you can spend a weekend up there with your buddy and sons, and haul home ~1,000 bd/ft of decent wood?

I just use a small utility trailer to haul the mill and boards, but this was only 15 mins from home.



A few trips and there's a decent stash. This was one tree.



You can also maximise your kiln capacity by air drying the wood first. Walnut is pretty forgiving to dry, get it down to ~15% , then into a solar kiln for a couple of weeks to finish it off.

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

Hard maple is $3.50 for 8/4 select and kilned and walnut and cherry was $6.00 the last I checked. I'd say you have a better buy on lumber than you realize. ;D

[OntarioAl]

Maple leaf  guy
I second Ianab's idea. It is your woodlot (a very valuable one at that)  cut small amounts learning how to saw the best grade out of a log . Learn about different drying techniques (air drying kiln drying) for the species you have. Start small, time is on your side if I read your original post about bringing your sons into the business.
I know up here selling the timber  would trigger an immediate tax bite on the stumpage.
Al

[SwampDonkey]

That's the tragedy, what little these days one gets for stumpage (because our forests are becoming devalued) the tax man takes a huge bite out of it. Actually, tax law has changed a bit in Canada with woodlots. If it's a business venture where it's frequently part of the income stream, there is a management plan in place and not a liquidation deal, and you have input costs, then your in for tax savings. Considerable less tax than those that find themselves as armchair  loggers.

[Ianab]

True. There is the accounting and tax side of things. If you are doing regular harvesting the property becomes a "Tree Farm", not just a "woodlot". May mean all sorts of (legit) deductions. The tractor and trailer (and sawmill) become business expenses and can be depreciated. It changes the property tax situation etc. Make sure you offset those expenses against the extra income you make from selling your own tree as finished product.

[thecfarm]

Get a good CPA and get a reciept for EVERYTHING. Gas,clothes,tools,phone bills,electric bill,repairs,filters for equipment.and on and on it goes.

[Joe Hillmann]

What percentage of the lumber out of an average log will be of a high enough quality/grade for what you plan to make out of it? 

If the cabinets you now make are all quarter sawn with no knots allowed that will be a pretty low percent of the total lumber that you saw that will be good enough for the final product. 

If you do more "rustic" work where knots and bits of sap wood are ok you will get a lot more useable lumber per log.


I am kind of doing the same thing you want to. I am actually in the process of building a sawmill to cut lumber for finished products I sell.  I am building rustic crates.  My customers actually complain if the lumber is too nice.  Since what I am doing is rustic I don't need to invest in a large planer or a kiln.  If I had to do that it would have been too expensive. Right now I am able to buy the lumber I need for 80 cents a board foot so cutting it myself won't save me any money.  My reason is so that I can get the exact material I want and my customers (tourists) like the fact that I can point to the stump the finished product came from.

[Maple leaf guy]

 Thanks for all your great input..... I think my best option is to set myself up with a kiln, possibly the Woodmizer dehumidification kiln. Being up here in MN it sounds like the solar just aren't the most efficient due to our winters. Hiring someone with a portable band mill to cut some logs up may be good education for me both learning wise and financial wise...There will be a lot to learn and taking it slow is probably the best way to go. Like my grandfather told me....educate yourself...work hard...and stay positive.... 8)   Once again.....Thanks to all for your thoughts!!!

[barbender]

Hello, Maple Leaf Guy. There is a fellow over in Wisconsin, I can't remember his name but he has posted on here before and I believe I've read about him in Woodmizer Way magazine, too. His business model is sustainable management of his high value woodlot. He looks at things as not handling the wood multiple times, but adding value to it multiple times ;) He does everything from felling and skidding the timber to installing finished products in customer's homes. Another thing, check out the MN DNR website and look at the timber auctions for your area. If you look at the ones that are completed you can see what timber is going for. I've checked sales down there just out of curiosity and if there is hardwood sawtimber it goes for big money. The DNR should be able to help you with an estimate of value, too. BTW, I'm a logger and if I had a tract like yours there's not very many loggers I'd let on it. I'd rather leave it standing than let someone do a hack job on it.

[Maple leaf guy]

 Barbender....Thanks for your expertise... It looked like the DNR website average about $270 mbf some for oak. You are right about the Wisc guy...just trying to get the most value out of every board foot. That was my thought too, if I just have someone log it I would have no other chance to earn income off of the woodland for 15 to 30 years. If I do everything myself I should be able earn money every year by just harvesting a fraction of the trees a year. I figure its worth a shot. 8)

[Gary_C]

Don't overlook that you will have to learn to be a forest manager with a good plan for managing your trees. If you do not manage your cutting properly, you can high grade your forest and have nothing left but junk. And that is the same thing that can happen if you turn a logger loose to cut what ever he wants to take.

You absolutely need a good forest management plan.

BTW, I'm a logger and if I had a tract like yours there's not very many loggers I'd let on it. I'd rather leave it standing than let someone do a hack job on it.

That's good advice. And I've seen too many of those hack jobs in your area.

[mesquite buckeye]

Somewhere in here someone needs to mention that there are actual expenses that a logger, miller/processor, hauler, retailer have to cover and still make a profit. Just looking at stumpage prices and retail finished prices forgets that everybody along the chain of production has to make a living or there is no finished product.  ;D That's not to say the stumpage prices aren't low, but that price may be for pallet grade trees. Long term, I think the old books say that stumpage runs about 5% of finished value. Someone may have a more accurate number than that, and of course, more valuable species and veneer quality trees will yield more $.

[Maple leaf guy]

All great advice you guys are giving. ...my wife and I had a forest management plan done 2 years ago by a very respected unbiased forester. He was the one that told me I should think of taking it from standing timber to finished  products especially when I have 2 work hungry boys!  We plan on walking the woods with the forester again soon...That's exactly what I had figured...5%..  from what I was offered by a major logging company from here....

[Maple leaf guy]

Just had to order 1000 bd ft of S&B Red Oak for my next kitchen. It has jumped in price by 35 cents in the last 7 weeks....Bet you guys wished you could increase your price by 35 too huh??!!

[barbender]

I will say that if you want to do all of this just to save money on lumber for your cabinet business, you're going to be disappointed. There is a large investment in equipment and even more so in your time. On the other hand, if you are looking for a change of pace (I think it would be a whole lifestyle change) with a bonus of having control of your lumber supply, and full utilization of your forest resource, you're on the right track.

[Maple leaf guy]

Hi Barbender....yes I've been in the cabinetry business for 25 years now so I would like a change of pace for careers somewhat.....they saying logging is dangerous. ..so is being around micro fine dust and conversion varnish spray too!! I've spent much time this winter on all business expenses and have a real good idea of what is needed....and the equipment I currently own. My plan is kiln dry all lumber and market what is needed through my business so it's not like I'm setting up this investment to save money only 5000 to 10000 bd ft..
Thanks for your thoughts. .....

[OntarioAl]

Maple leaf guy
You have the advise of a respected  Forester, a management plan, experience in running your own business, the ability to start slow learning how to safely fell and merchandise your trees (the Forester could probably introduce you to people that could assist in your learning curve).
Logging is very dangerous but with proper instruction and taking things slow you can become a safe efficient logger on your own property and since you own the timber you are never under pressure to produce to pay the bills.
I wish you success in your venture.
Al

[Maple leaf guy]

Ontario Al.....thanks for all your support and advice......thankfully one of my best friends has spent most his life in the tree business and now has his winters off and would love to help in all the logging aspect. So that truly takes alot of pressure and worry off my mind....still alot to learn but know it's possible! !

[Southside]

Hi Maple Leaf Guy,

I fully support your idea to take your standing timber to finished customer product, we do a lot of direct marketing on our farm and I am always looking at ways to maximize our return.  Just a comment on your statement about oak going up $0.35 recently.  First, fuel has gone up about the same per gallon over the past three weeks, and locally mills have raised their prices on hardwood by 25% - 30% during the same period.  I think this price increase has a lot more to do with the fact their yards are basically empty from the wet conditions and guys not being able to get wood into them so they want to be the ones to get the few loads guys have.  I only had one good working week this winter weather wise, the rest of the time I have been fighting mother nature for every stick, my costs are up and production has been down, so its all relative.  Again, I support your venture, just be prepared for a lot of unexpected obstacles as you progress.  When you have it licked I suspect you will have a sweet operation.   

[Maple leaf guy]

Southside logger. ..thanks for the support and advice.....growing up on a farm and running a cabinetry business. ..I learned a long time ago to expect the worse...And hope for the best!!! No I realize there will be obstacles. ...but we all get through them....I know it sure has been a bad winter up here too!!!
If you had the opportunity to do all the direct marketing again...would you?

[Southside]

Absolutely,  every new product we create is geared toward a direct marketed customer. We do nothing commodity based,  it may be slow at first, but I would rather sell 10 AC worth of rye at $30 / BU  over the winter than 10 AC of wheat at $6.00 / BU in one day.