You have to pay for the sawdust

[Sawyerfortyish]

I tryed to explain to a couple the other day yes you can go to Home depo and buy the exact amount of footage you want for flooring. But Home Depo doesn't sell wide plank flooring and if you want it here you have to pay for the extra footage. That will cost almost 1" in width on every board. So if they want 350 sq ft they will have to buy around 380' to end up with 350. After I straight line rip it and tongue and groove it . The extra footage has to be part of the cost someplace I'm not going to eat it and if I only do 350' exactly they will fall short on flooring. How does everyone else figure flooring? Before you machine it or after I figure the footage before and recheck after to make sure there's enough.

[asy]

Don't forget, Home Depot factors the costs into their floor cost.

If your purchasers didn't know what your internal costings were, how would they know that they were paying for sawdust???

I think you may be better off just setting a price per foot, and saying well, if you want this width it's $x, and if you want this other wider section it's $x. May also be an idea to work out what that is per square um whatever you guys square. (Here it would be a price per square metre).

Unless you are dressing their lumber, I can't see why they need to know your internal workings.

As I said, set your price per square foot or per square yard (whichever is the standard) and have it as a finished price.

So that way, you are allowing your customers to compare apples with apples.

I hope I read your question correctly...  (Feel free to set me straight if I didn't)

asy :D

[WH_Conley]

I agree with Asy, if you give the customer too many numbers some, not all but some, will think you are trying to pull a fast one. If a couple of em think yer double dealin and start talking it's bad for business.

[etat]

I always price my rate materials an labor per my rates.  Very seldom do I itemize my estimates.

[dewwood]

I sell hardwood lumber by random width and length.  However many customers cannot understand nor do they care they just want 1x4's or 1x6's surfaced on four sides.  To accomodate them and make it easier to quote someone a price when they ask how much for so many feet of 1x4 I have made up a spreadsheet with the waste factor, surfacing charges and an overhead charge built in.  That way I can say a 1x4 red oak is $xx dollars per lineal foot no matter how many feet until they reach quantity discount levels.  This has made life much easier for me. and the customers like it better that way also.

[redpowerd]

id like to see how you have that spreadsheet set up. very good idear.
ckates sounds real easy charging set rate. makes the math simple, to avoid all confusion, itemizing an estimate could be done in ones head.

i have to keep this stuff in the back of my head, seems im getting more and more requests for wood

[Randy]

I totally understand what You are saying as well as probably every sawyer on here does, but a Customer SEE's the end product, not what it takes to get it there.  If I am your customer and I want 350sqft of lumber, when I get home-I better have 350sqft of lumber---as a customer I could care less if it takes you 1000sqft to make me 350sqft. I want my 350sqft at the "price" WE agreed on, But to you as a sawyer and a business man, you don't have to tell me and I don't need to know how many BF it takes to make my 350sqft. If it takes you 380sqft, then figure the price of 380sqft, then tell me My 350sqft will cost me this much. If a customer walks into my shop and wants to buy 350bf of lumber that my "UNTAGED" price is $350 per thousand, I will ask them what they are going to do with it----When they say use it as flooring, then I will tell them this lumber here will make beautiful flooring and its Only $380 per thousand. Wheather I plane it or they take it to someone else--------I will make sure they have enough extra to get their full 350sqft. If they are taking the Ruff boards to someone else and are standing there as I am loading it and figuring, then when I get their 350 ft loaded--I will add the 30 extra ft and tell them this is for the Milling loss. This customer will leave happy knowing I was so thoughtful to include extra for their milling loss. IF-----Notice I said IF-----A customer catches me on a price jump and questions me--Then I will be honest(NEVER LIE TO A CUSTOMER) and tell them---you have to figure in a little extra because of lose when you are making flooring. This one sawyer had 2 stacks of lumber-----one marked select flooring-------the other not marked----the select was marked higher per thousand, both stacks were the SAME lumber, but he said he did it that way because he had to "SELECT" a few more boards for milling loss :D. HAPPY CUSTOMERS are what you want. Trying to beat it in their head that they have to pay for the sawdust want work with alot of customers.  If this will not work for you, then maybe you could increase your labor a few cent's per ft to take care of the few extra boards it takes to get the FULL footage. Randy

[Cedarman]

Always find out exactly what your customer wants before pricing.  Then figure a cost per unit and then tell your customer the final price.  They will either like it or won't. If they change the specs, you have to politely let them know that you will have to figure a new price.
People will ask me for certain specs and I will price and then as an after thought they will say, "Oh, we want that mostly red with very little sapwood"
Then I say, that will be so much extra, is that ok? Until we reach agreement.
I have a price list at cedarusa.com for how we do add ons. The customer can look at my price list and figure if they want us to do the extra work or they want to use their own equipment.  We have a T&G price also.
I agree with Randy.

[MemphisLogger]

I'm not sure if this responds exactly to what your getting at but here's how I handle flooring . . .

If I'm doing the install, I take careful measurements of the room and identify any special moulding--threshholds, floor vents, etc. Then I use CAD to calculate a sharp estimate of number of pieces at desired width(s). This allows me to more accurately determine how much wood is really needed. The customer is quoted a price per foot that reflects board footage required, species/grade, number of milling setups (or subcontract cost). Installation is cost+ in most cases since I deal mainly with older homes.

Doing it this way allows me  to run the floor with a minimum waste factor, so I believe the customer actually comes out with a better price. I also think the appearance is better since I know the "lay" of the floor and can sort the run by color and figure match. I don't sand and finish, so after the floor is down I refer them to a good friend that does. (If I'm too busy, I'll often have my friend do the install as well since he and I communicate/work with eachother very well.)

If someone comes to me with logs that they want me to turn into flooring, I grade the logs and estimate their yield. I try to give them a sharp estimate of how many feet of flooring they'll end up with and what it will cost in terms of kilning and milling. I can give them pretty good estimate since I'm intimate with the quality of the wood, control it's drying and setermine what widths of flooring will produce the least waste.

If they will be having the flooring milled elsewhere (I recommend this if it's thin strip). I advise them that they will loose approximately 10-15% of their boardfootage in drying, 15-20% in milling and another 10% in installation.

 



 

[redpowerd]

if you put www in your link it will make it linkable.

www.cedarusa.com

thanks!

[Bro. Noble]

I thing ASY and WH have it right------figger out what you need and quote them the price.  Too much explaining of stuff they might not understand doesn't help.

Used to have some really good neighbors where I used to live  that traded work a lot.  They all had cow/calf operations and got to thinking they could pool resources and beat the middleman when selling their calves.  One of the guys had some good working facilities so they went together and installed some certifiable scales there.  When they were all ready to sell their calf crop,  they contacted some buyers who came and bid on the calves.  Everything was going fine till the highest bidding buyer was starting to settle up.  He explained that his price would be even better but he was deducting a certain percentage for shrink.

Now anyone who ever saw a cattle trailer bed just after it was unloaded would understand that cattle 'shrink'  when you haul them.

All the neighbors except for Johnny understood this and went along with it.  Johnny said-----well he was retired from the Navy so I'm not going to tell you word for word what he said,  but it was something to the effect that there wasn't any certain such and such a SOB gonna 'pencil shrink' his calves :D :D

[Sawyerfortyish]

I'm doing just the oppisite Nobel I'm adding on for shrink   Now if I can just get this couple to stop asking so many questions. The women wanted to know if the floor boards would be sanded before they installed it. I said no and she wanted to know if that were discounted from the price of the floor. I told her that it's best to sand it after installation to get it all flat and even.

[sigidi]

it sounds like this pair are wanting a supply and fit pricing not just a supply price.

Run like heck mate!!

No seriously, I have been burnt trying to offer a rate on supplied boards rather than how much I had to cut to get their boards. You have to figure out how much all your work is gonna cost add that to your materials then give em the one figure for supply of the amount they want, the rest is up to the installer

Good luck

[FeltzE]

There is a significant difference in selling rough cut lumber than a machined end product like flooring. I price a machined end product by the square foot or linear foot. It is very easy to cut yourself short in the machining process if you don't carefully figure out your waste, labor, and setup times in your estimates. I also use a spread sheet to calculate an appropriate sell price for various products.

In the end it's quite simple board footage to make the sq footage$
Set up time $
Rip saw time$
Machine time X labor rate X no. of people to machine.$
% of knife cost $
Add it all up....make a quote.

Many people who never worked with low or mid grad hardwoods won't understand the amount of waste consumed in ripping and culling defects out.

I recently did 2 different jobs for the same customer with his wood. One job had a great recovery rate of lumber with little waste the next had a lot of waste and trims. It supprised me! A key to limiting waste is picking the lumber sized closer to your finished product or if flooring make 2 different sizes boards, one size as the primary, the second size most applicable to the largest amount of waste.

Eric

[iain]

I generaly dont have to explain, people accept that it costs to process, and the reason most of them are at my door is they dont like the rest 8)


iain

[Doc]

I generaly dont have to explain, people accept that it costs to process, and the reason most of them are at my door is they dont like the rest 8)


iain

Yes Iain, but you are British, and by the time they have come to your door they have been to everyone else and decided that they are not happy with quality/workmanship/price/color/weather/smell/whatever suits them to not be happy with. In the good ole USA we are beaten up by the big box outfits who sell stuff (some of it garbage, but good looking garbage) at rock bottom prices ready to install. Flooring is one thing here that is availabel in a box and ready to put down....finished stained and all. People who don't have a clue, but have money see this and expect others who do something (these sawyers here for instance) to provide the same thing at the saem price. I know that is not possible, you know that is not possible. These guys woudl have to turn out junk, and woudl have to go broke selling it. I don't think that any of them are willing to do that....I wouldn't, adn wouldn't ask them to either.

Americans are the ultimate bargain consumers. We will buy anything whether we need it or not, if we think we are getting a bargain. I suspect I have worked around a few that would buy bottle nuke waste as a collectible if they thought they were getting a deal. Unfortunately, those who really care about what they are selling (these sawyers for instance) get caught in the middle of the storm of garbage. Sometimes you can make it work to your advantage, and sometimes you can't. It is one of those deals where you pick your battles.

Doc

[iain]

Dont think of the big box stores as your prob, we got a serious amount of them here, and you'd be surprised at the crud people will lay, (maybe you wont) we aint got to have a bargin just to have it, but what we want we want it cheap, cheap, cheap, i dont go there, i got my price you want it there it is, i stopped the beating myself down a LONG LONG time ago, i'll even lay the crud some times for a change,  but they pay work shop rates to get me to lay a $7.50 a sqm floor : 8)



         iain

[Doc]

It amazes me at what some of these outfits will sell as a quality product! Garbage!

If I am going to spend my time doing something for myself I want it to outlive me. I just can't see laying out my hard earned cash for garbage, when for a few bucks more I can get something real.

Doc

[DonE911]

I have to agree with Doc that If I am providing something for myself that I want it to outlast me.

If someone ( a customer ) wants what I have provided for myself, then they should be willing to pay a reasonable cost to get it. The problem is that the good looking garbage is cheaper and certainly faster seeing that you just grab the box off the shelf and put it on your cart.  Most americans are programmed to the "fast and cheap" " it's a good deal" type of purchasing. I purchase many things in this manner, as I'm sure we all do.  I wont buy the $89 brand x chainsaw at the big box store over the $400 stihl, but many people will, and next year they will buy another and another the following year. 

I haven't made any flooring for myself yet, but the wood is air drying now.  It will be wide plank ( not available of the shelf at the box store ) and made by my hand ( also not availble off the shelf at the box store ).  I want my children and grandchildren to know where that floor came from and hopefully love it like I will.   If I was selling the flooring I would be making a quaility product at a quality product price, just like the rest of you.  I'm sure it would be tough to compete with the box store for customers who think we are selling the same product.

Its the old craftsman -vrs- machine produced story all over again.    Many people think they want the craftman's product, but with a "garbage product" price.  "Why does your hand made table cost so much more than the table I just looked at from Rooms to Go ( or any other box store )?" Teaching a customer the difference between products will be time consuming and may not get you a sale, but I don't see any other way.