Hydrogen/Brown's gas

[Dave Shepard]

Welcome DangerousDave. I've been called that before. : ;D

Very interesting stuff! 8)


Dave

[farmerdoug]

I have a question about pulling the oxygen sensor back so it will not sense a lean fuel mix. 

First off lean fuel mixes are bad for the newer engines especially aluminum heads.  Have you guys had any problems with that yet?

Secondly,  A lean fuel mix produces alot more nitrious oxides which is the a pollutant and is a leading reason of acid rain.  This will also ruin your catlytic converers too.  Have you guys addressed these problems also?

[Ron Wenrich]

OK Dave, I think you sold me on the KOH.  Here's my question.  This system has an exterior tank that acts like a bubbler.  It also circulates the electrolyte and helps keep the unit cool.  Will the electrolyte ever need any adding to it to keep the fluid levels up?  What is the mix spec for the KOH?

Doug

I don't know of any problems.  Supposedly, the addition of the hydroxy to the air runs the engine at a higher efficiency and lowers the pollutant output.  I had my truck inspected just a few weeks ago, and they monitor the tailpipe output.  I'll have to see if I can get a test done at the local mechanic and see if we can make a comparison.

[jmsiowa]

Dale,
     Thanks for the PDF's.  I can't get the wps files to open :'(  But just from reading the pdf's my head hurts.
John

[beenthere]

jmsiowa
Couldn't understand your comment, until I saw that you changed the subject line... : :

What system are you using that you can't get the wps files to open?

[Corley5]

Will this work on a carburated non computer controlled engine  ???

[DangerousDave]

Will this work on a carburated non computer controlled engine  ???

YES that is the preferred engines to use other than Diesel. Just try to avoid the Mid 80s Feedback Carburated models as they are an attempt at computer control.

[DangerousDave]

Ron..
With your system I would flush the system with distilled water. Take the cell apart and clean the tubes with distilled water then, wearing latex gloves so you don't get oils from fingers on them, sand cross hatch into outside of inner tube and inside of outer tube with 80grit then rinse with distilled water again and put back together.

Then fill the system up with distilled water only and put an amp gage on the power feed fire it up and slowly add KOH until it pulls about ~10amps. you need to add the KOH slowly as it gets very hot while it dissolves.  Also be sure and either have the engine running or remove the output line to the intake and vent it safely while the cell is powered up.

After you get the ~10amps hook it up and run the engine  after it wets warmed up the amps should come up some you can play with the KOH ratio a little from there but there is a point where more won't do anything except make heat and steam(waste energy).

Once you get it set you can check it with a Hydrometer for reference. you may occasionally need to add a little koh but not very often.

The longer you use it the better it will work as it will build up a white catalytic layer on the plates this is good don't clean it off.



Doug...

"First off lean fuel mixes are bad for the newer engines especially aluminum heads.  Have you guys had any problems with that yet?"

When adding Hydroxy Boost you are not leaning out the gas/air ratio you are adding another fuel source to the mix which adds to a cleaner more complete burn.  so by tweeking the O2sensor the computer won't try to add more fuel and contaminate the mix.

When gas lean burns it produces heat that will damage the engine and produces Nox and CO.  Hydroxy will lean burn just fine like diesel does, less fuel less power, more fuel more power it also burns a lot faster so if you are boosting enough you will need to retard the timing a bit which will also help emissions.


DouginUtah

The Meyer system is on the same line but is a Completely Different tech. his methods of water Cracking goes into a whole different realm unfortunately his patents are not complete, he kept his secrets, although there are a few very sharp people working on it that understand what he was really doing and are real close.   The Extra energy introduced into the system is similar to the resonant plate cell system but derived in a different way.

Research the  BOB BOYCE system to gain more in depth understanding of the series resonate cell. He is still with us and continuing research in this field.


later
Dave

[Corley5]

So it'd work on an 84 350 Chevy with a Quadra Junk  ???  I'm interested now  8) 8)

[slowzuki]

I would be very skeptical of any of these claims.  A modern engine and be made to get better mileage and pollute more with a simple reburned chip (advance ignition timing, reduce richness of mix, adjust valve timing) rather than an expensive and convoluted electrolysis process.

Does anyone have a detailed energy balance of this process done for an engine that maintains its pollution levels the same for HC, CO and NOx?

[jmsiowa]

jmsiowa
Couldn't understand your comment, until I saw that you changed the subject line... : :

What system are you using that you can't get the wps files to open?

I'm using WinXP with MS office.   Apparently WPS is a works file that excel doesn't like.  Tried Star Office from Google and it didn't like the file either.  The WPS files contained parts lists for each device I believe.
John

[Norm]

Welcome to the forum John, good to have another Iowa member on board.

[DangerousDave]

So it'd work on an 84 350 Chevy with a Quadra Junk  ???  I'm interested now  8) 8)

Yup. The Pre Emission ones are the best to work with then you don't need to mess with the O2s etc.

And DON'T use Platinum Plugs the platinum is a catalyst to turn the Hydroxy back to water.

[DangerousDave]

  A modern engine and be made to get better mileage and pollute more with a simple reburned chip (advance ignition timing, reduce richness of mix, adjust valve timing) rather than an expensive and convoluted electrolysis process.

Yes and by advancing the timing, and Leaning out the Air/fuel ratio with gas alone you increase the combustion temp. due to Lean Burn and also increase the emissions output.

But if you Boost with Hydroxy you DON'T LEAN BURN the gas mixture instead you add a catalyst to the mix that gives you a better more complete burn of the Petrol that is there hence the O2 sensor thinking it is running lean because there is less unburned petrol coming out the pipe.

You can also build your own booster fairly inexpensively with off the shelf stuff from Hardware store that will work very good one example is google Smack Booster it is a very efficient brute force booster made from stainless switch plate covers.

Does anyone have a detailed energy balance of this process done for an engine that maintains its pollution levels the same for HC, CO and NOx

I'm sure somebody somewhere does but I haven't heard of anybody running a booster not passing emissions tests.

Dave

[Don P]

I can see what you all are talking about, it doesn't take much nitrous at all to change the burning characteristics alot.  I wonder if you can make nitrous onboard  ???
If the O₂ sensor is just a resistor what about a rheostat and some form of output on the dash so you can dial it in, sounds like you are "fooling" it and removing it from the loop effectively?

There must be a chemical equation showing a typical burn of gasoline and then this "enhanced" burn adding more H and O. That would give the quantity of gas needed to reach this better burning condition. Then working backwards figure the volume of needed H₂O gas from the displacement and rpm. When you take the hose off and stick it in a bag or inverted bucket of water... how much gas is being produced, or, how many miles per gallon of water are you getting?

[ronwood]

Why can't the car manufactures build an engine that sends less unburned petro down the tailpipe?

But if you Boost with Hydroxy you DON'T LEAN BURN the gas mixture instead you add a catalyst to the mix that gives you a better more complete burn of the Petrol that is there hence the O2 sensor thinking it is running lean because there is less unburned petrol coming out the pipe.

Ron

[DangerousDave]

Why can't the car manufactures build an engine that sends less unburned petro down the tailpipe?

Ron,  It's not a matter of why Can't they it's why WON'T they.......
But that is a whole nother issue that a lot of people don't want to accept that exists. It is mainly why I am in this field of research and the Hydroxy is just a small part of it.

If the O₂ sensor is just a resistor what about a rheostat and some form of output on the dash so you can dial it in, sounds like you are "fooling" it and removing it from the loop effectively?

It is more than a resistor but there are some circuits out there that will allow you to adjust them one is here http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/D17.pdf

There must be a chemical equation showing a typical burn of gasoline and then this "enhanced" burn adding more H and O. That would give the quantity of gas needed to reach this better burning condition. Then working backwards figure the volume of needed H₂O gas from the displacement and rpm. When you take the hose off and stick it in a bag or inverted bucket of water... how much gas is being produced, or, how many miles per gallon of water are you getting?

Basically any helps and the more Hydroxy the better until you can produce enough to eliminate the Petrol completely. But after a certain point you will need to work on Ignition timing to accommodate the faster burn of the Hydroxy and eliminate any Waste Spark if your engine has it.  Another reason to stick with the Older Rigs.

[ronwood]

Dave

Ron,  It's not a matter of why Can't they it's why WON'T they.......
But that is a whole nother issue that a lot of people don't want to accept that exists. It is mainly why I am in this field of research and the Hydroxy is just a small part of it.

I was thinking that was the reason.

Ron

[karl]

Been reading about hydrogen generators for a while now and until this thread was becoming more confused and about ready to give up.

Thanks all for the info and sites

I don't have anything to contribute, but I hope this keeps going.

I'm certainly going to try a simple unit on  one of the engines around the Sandbox.

[Dale Hatfield]

I  have been wanting to try a unit on my cummins ram  but thats an costly motor to test with.
I just hit 200,000 and im going for 500 or more.
Dale

[DangerousDave]

I  have been wanting to try a unit on my cummins ram  but thats an costly motor to test with.
I just hit 200,000 and im going for 500 or more.
Dale

Hi Dale
A good Booster won't hurt your diesel any just make sure and use a Bubbler.
Do you have a Turbo on it ?

Got your Email Thanks
hope you didn't pay much for it ....
most everything in there is FREE online. but there is some GOOD info there.
The Hydrostar is .. well......Hmm .... All I'll say is I know of NO ONE who has ever even got it to do close to what they claim, and the electronics don't work as posted, the fets overheat and a few other problems. I don't think whoever came up with that ever actually built it. For as long as it's been around  everyone should have one if it works. anyhow enough on that , their ideas are sound but .....

Now the Smack booster works great and the D9 pdf is full of great info too especially the Bob Boyce system but the files you have are outdated there is a LOT of new info on his system in the updated files

Go here http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/index.html
and you can download the most recent docs. plus there is a bunch of other great info there
Well I just checked it to get you the direct link and apparently he moved the Devices files somewhere else so I will check with him and see where they went then give you the link.
but there is still a lot of great stuff there. I will Email you the current copies if I can't find Patrick's  link

This site also has a lot of info
http://panaceauniversity.org/
also check out their Main Page.


KARL:

If you boost a B&S style small engine be careful of the Waste spark. start the engine before you turn on the booster so it doesn't get any Hydroxy in the system to ignite while starting

[Dale Hatfield]

Thanks D Dave.  That is also info that i have been looking for. Show me a system that works and one I can build myself and Im all about it.  But their is so much crap to wade through that I just let it go.
Yes the Dodge is  a Turbo Model   The truck is er well slightly modified. It needs a better turbo or a pair of them. But non the less I have over 120,000 miles of use from a increased horsepower truck.
It is also a good testing  unit as it dont have a computer or any of the fancy sensors to mess with.
Would it be better  pre turbo or on the pressure side on the intake horn.  All of the stuff i see really leaves  diesels out and shows only gas  units.
Dale

[DangerousDave]

Dale,

Here is the link to the updated files you have
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Start.html
He isn't updating this link anymore instead he has restructure everything in this one
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/index.html  The Ebook link towards the top is apparently the prime info from the whole site in book form.

If you are just Boosting the diesel then pre turbo works fine. The mix is diluted enough that it is safe, otherwise you need a pressurized Hydroxy System and thats not easy or cheap to do SAFELY. If you get beyond Boosting... well thats another story and there is other things to do also.

Dave

[Dale Hatfield]

Dave
Smacks  site says no way to pre turbo  and intercooler.
My max boost pressure is is about 40 pounds.   So it looks like no simple way for me to test .

[DangerousDave]

Dave
Smacks  site says no way to pre turbo  and intercooler.
My max boost pressure is is about 40 pounds.   So it looks like no simple way for me to test .

I'm pretty sure he is referring to Gas rigs there and he is very safety conscious for the Masses.

I will find the posts from Bob Boyce who actually boosts Big diesels, Bus's and such.
and paste them here for you and you can decide which way to go.

Ok Found some info fur ya.....

From Yahoo Group    Hydroxy

Just wanted to add my test results to this discussion. I originally
thought that it would be best to inject after the turbo due to the
possible heat, and possible ignition of hydroxy gas by the turbo.

I obtained a 1988 RTS bus with an electronically controlled 6V92TA
Detroit Diesel. For those not familiar, this is a V6 2 cycle diesel
engine with a roots style supercharger, a single turbocharger, and an
aftercooler. I decided to test my theory on this engine, since I had
it availaible.

When I injected after the turbo, while it did work somewhat after
pressure built up in the cells, it required too much cell pressure to
get an improvement. That much pressure causes a more rapid
degradation of the hydroxy gas quality.

When I injected before the turbo, (at the air cleaner housing), the
improvement was immediate. I was able to get a much more reliable
boost using this injection point. The same amount of current draw
from the booster revved the engine up higher with no other changes.

So the results of this test proved that with that particular engine
configuration, the best place to inject the hydroxy gas was before
the turbo. Take that for what it is worth.

Bob

Re: Before Turbo vs After Turbo Hydroxy Gas Injection

--- In Hydroxy@yahoogroups.com, "camerondebney01" wrote:
> wow, thats really cool, thats the first time ive ever herd of a
supercharged /turboed /Aftercooled (do you mean a intercooler?) /2
cycle (do you mean a 2 stroke?) /diesel engine.. i don't mean that in a
smart Alec way im really interested in knowing more about this strange
configuration... got any pics etc?

It was actually a common combination used in older big truck and bus
chassis. They even made a twin turbo model, 6V92TTA, for a bit more HP.
In the latter 80s around 1987 or so, they began to replace the manual
injector rack with an electronic controlled version (DDEC). At first it
was an option, then became standard equipment. Yes, 2 cycle is 2
stroke, though the engine uses a 4 stroke type forced oil lubrication
system. I wish there were small 2 stroke engines made in this manner,
as 2 stroke engines are great for hydroxy gas running. I prefer the 2
stroke detroit diesel induction system over that of the smaller 2
stroke engines. They call it aftercooled, as the aftercooler is after
the GMC 6-92 roots style blower. I have a few pictures of the engine
bay with the grimy engine in place. Nothing truly spectacular in my
opinion ;-)




On the 6V92TA in one of my buses, I just inject the hydroxy gas prior
to the air filter. So far, I have not had any problems with heat from
the turbo or supercharger causing pre-ignition at the boost levels I
have tried. If it does turn into a problem at higher boost levels,
then you may need to pressurize your hydroxy gas a bit and inject it
beneath the aftercooler. Just remember, with a diesel engine, you are
limited to 80% maximum hydroxy gas/20% diesel. Just leave it idling
on diesel, then apply enough hydroxy gas to rev it up to where you
want it to be. Super simple!

Bob Boyce

Re: 83 280zx Turbo
Q). With turbo engines, i think the consensus is it is applied to the intake of the turbo (between MAF
sensor (if present) and turbo) The only issue being, the whole intake
tract from turbo to manifold will be charged with compressed
explosive gases.

A)

"The only issue being, the whole intake tract from turbo to manifold
will be charged with compressed explosive gases."

This is a common misconception. As it turns out, the small amount of
hydroxy gas from a booster, in comparison to the much larger amount
of intake air, dilutes the hydroxy gas to well below the flammability
limits for hydrogen. Thus, no explosion can occur. This is also why
waste spark has no effect on boosted engines, while it can be
detrimental to engine running on hydroxy gas alone.

My concern used to be that the heat of the turbo would ignite the
diluted hydrogen atoms or molecules (not explosively) and render it
ineffective. Testing has proven otherwise. As it turns out, prior to
the turbo seems to be the best place for hydroxy gas injection. I
would still do this far upstream of the turbo to allow for the
hydroxy gas to become fully mixed and diluted by the time it reaches
the turbo.

Bob

Note:  Rapid degradation of the hydroxy gas quality... Well hydroxy has ability to
change it's atomic state while compressed, from mono atomic to more stable H2,
so I would say that he was referring to that phenomenon,