Sawing Paneling

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

How are you guys charging for paneling if you own the logs.

You saw a 300 bf log into 1 inch boards.....sell by the bf at your price.
You saw a 300 bf log into 1/2 or 5/8 inch paneling......what are you charging?

[Magicman]

I would scale the ½" as if it was 1".  Same as sawing.

[WV Sawmiller]

I would scale the ½" as if it was 1".  Same as sawing.

     Ditto. Anything under 1" is billed same as an inch. Takes me just as much if not more time to handle and cut.

[Sixacresand]

Same as what WV Sawmiller and the MagicMan said.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Thanks for the info.

The logs I was going to saw from were given to me at no charge.
I charge 60 cents a bf for a 1x8x10 Pine board which comes to $4.00.

The customer raised cain when I told him the price would be the same and he even ask me to reconsider my price.
Well.....I did. I told him I could do it for $3.50 a board.....he slammed the phone down.
I'm swamped with work anyway.....I hate it.....but I agree with y'all.

[Magicman]

I think that your counter offer was very generous.  If he calls back and wants you to re-reconsider the price, tell him $4.50.  smiley_contract_point

[Sixacresand]

You are doing good at 60 cents/bf, Post. 

I quoted a guy a milling price of $300/m for his logs and he argued that if we are cutting 4 inch lumber, then it ought to be lots cheaper, because of less cuts. 

[homesteader1972]

It depends on the situation. If its a good customer that wants a little I charge it at 3/4. If they want alot then I bill it at an inch. I did have a customer that somehow couldn't wrap his mind around the idea that I would bill an inch for 1/2 inch material. I wound up not doing his job. On bigger jobs, I gladly throw in some freebies for the customer, like mill a crotch or some thin stuff for hobby. It all depends on the situation. Thus far, all I do is portable milling though, so my situations are different than yours.

[WV Sawmiller]

Thanks for the info.

The logs I was going to saw from were given to me at no charge.
I charge 60 cents a bf for a 1x8x10 Pine board which comes to $4.00.

The customer raised cain when I told him the price would be the same and he even ask me to reconsider my price.
Well.....I did. I told him I could do it for $3.50 a board.....he slammed the phone down.
I'm swamped with work anyway.....I hate it.....but I agree with y'all.

    Sounds like a good guy not to have for a customer.

    I tell every customer and have had no complaints about my policy. Had one customer drive 85 miles each way and rented a 12' trailer to pick up 28 3/4"X6"X16' poplar boards which I billed at $.75/bf and counted each as an inch. He knew up front (I'd have cut him full 1" for the same price) and was a very happy customer. I guess he couldn't get them any closer. He first planned on putting them in the back of his truck till I reminded him of the length issue and he agreed probably needed something longer.

[drobertson]

Yea this is always a tricky situation for me too, there is in the pallet industry another lumber scale used which takes into account the thinner boards, but for our application on the wmz mills its hard to justify milling for the actual thickness.. I've been told that I have sold air, so where is the line in the sand.  I basically sell 0 to 1-1/2" same money,
over 1-1/2" is counted as 2"  posts and beams are what they measure.

[WV Sawmiller]

It depends on the situation. If its a good customer that wants a little I charge it at 3/4. If they want alot then I bill it at an inch. I did have a customer that somehow couldn't wrap his mind around the idea that I would bill an inch for 1/2 inch material. I wound up not doing his job. On bigger jobs, I gladly throw in some freebies for the customer, like mill a crotch or some thin stuff for hobby. It all depends on the situation. Thus far, all I do is portable milling though, so my situations are different than yours.

Homesteader,

    I have never yet let a customer leave without throwing in something extra. May just be a few thin trim cuts, an extra board or two or a short slab he had been admiring.

    If your customer could not understand same price for thin stuff you are probably better off without him. I bet whomever he did buy from, if he ever bought, wish they had never met him.

[beenthere]

A way to explain it is 1" and above will be by the board foot measure.
Below 1", it will be by the surface measure.

[LeeB]

A way to explain it is 1" and above will be by the board foot measure.
Below 1", it will be by the surface measure.

That ought to put a kink in the brain waves for most of them.

[drobertson]

pretty much explains itself,, done deal, selling air in some folks opinion,

[jmouton]

we sell or cut anything under an inch,   it  is  a bd ft ,,,  it is too hard to manually measure  accurately  anything under an inch ,  we dont have accuset or anything like it  ,  we use the scale or measure with tape and then it becomes less accurate ,

                                                                                 jim

[WDH]

If he thought that $.60/sq-ft was too much for pine paneling, tell him to go to Home Depot or Lowes  .

Piths me off, and I wasn't even the one dealing with him.   

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

If he thought that $.60/sq-ft was too much for pine paneling, tell him to go to Home Depot or Lowes  .

Piths me off, and I wasn't even the one dealing with him.

[4x4American]

A way to explain it is 1" and above will be by the board foot measure.
Below 1", it will be by the surface measure.

That is the best thing I've read that you've wrote! 

[thecfarm]

I get the ones that want a deal on sawing when they find out I have a mill. I don't saw for others and have no need too. I always quote them a sky rocket high price and that shuts them up fast. I try to tell them I don't saw for others,but the high price trick works every time.
He will find the price he wants to pay and than complain about how bad the lumber looks.

[WV Sawmiller]

I get the ones that want a deal on sawing when they find out I have a mill. I don't saw for others and have no need too. I always quote them a sky rocket high price and that shuts them up fast. I try to tell them I don't saw for others,but the high price trick works every time.
He will find the price he wants to pay and than complain about how bad the lumber looks.

   I agree. If he is griping about the price up front he will likely gripe about the quality or quantity at the end of the job. Best value may be to just send him on down the road. When someone tells me my prices are too high I agree, thank them for checking with me and wish them luck.  They called me - I did not call them.

[Nomad]

     Yeah...  Poston's potential customer was a guaranteed pain.  When somebody tells me my prices are too high I tell 'em "no problem; just deal with somebody else."  And have a great day!

[bkaimwood]

Funny, I feel the pain in this thread, and run into it all the time...just recently, yesterday. Older nice feller wants 1/2" x 6x assorted 8's, 10's, and 12's to do clapboard...4000 LF!!! Oh yeah, and needs it air dried at the least for a late spring install. I explained the thickness vs. $ logistics, and told him I'd try to meet him in the middle, as I'd like to earn his business and do this for him. The twist is in this story, its a constant struggle for me to get decent EWP, no good steady supply. Despite being in an area with lots of it, 1/2 the timber had dead porcupines and black knots, so those are useless... Having to pay, at times, upwards of .50 a bf for nice logs, where do I end up? Minimum .75 to 1.00 a bf...high, but must this situation must plague plenty of guys in my region, as I seldom don't get job based upon price. So .60 bf is cheap, its the customer's loss!! I decided to meet mine in the middle, charging halfway in between 1/2" and 1"...and add in the labor cost of paying my helper to clean boards, stack, and sticker to dry. I'm essentially not charging anything for drying/storage. Maybe I'm foolish, but the old fella's really nice, and surely on a budget...these circumstances always remind me of my late uncles, grandparents, and so on, and I want to treat them as I would have hoped treating mine...I let you guys know if I get the job, calling him today with the numbers...

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

The guy called back today and said he would take the paneling at $3.50 a board.....5/8 x 8 x 10.
He was just as polite as could be.
He did tell me I was the only mill within 50 miles he could find to even consider sawing paneling.  :D :D :D

[4x4American]

Heck you shoulda said you missed out on that deal it's back to my original $4 or nothin!

[Deese]

You saw a 300 bf log into 1 inch boards.....sell by the bf at your price.
You saw a 300 bf log into 1/2 or 5/8 inch paneling......what are you charging?

The number 300....Coincidence? I think not  :D :D :D :D

[red]

The deposit was $300

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

PANTHERS 300
BRONCOS    0

[bkaimwood]

Congratulations, poston....I also got the approval on my job mentioned above... Can't beat a few Friday approvals....

[sandsawmill14]

A way to explain it is 1" and above will be by the board foot measure.
Below 1", it will be by the surface measure.

x2   less than 4/4 is by the square ft  4/4 up to 16/4 is by the board ft 4" and up is by the piece but still priced according to bd ft prices according to species of wood

[sandsawmill14]

poston always remember what you have invested in the logs everything to do with profit but nothing to do with value/pricing of the lumber free logs are your good luck not his ;)

[Peter Drouin]

PANTHERS 300
BRONCOS    0

You got that backwards. :D :D :D :D

[Dave Shepard]

I have a simple system for custom sawing:

Timbers-my hourly rate.
8/4- my hourly rate.
4/4- my hourly rate.
3/4 to .5/4- my hourly rate.
Bucking your logs or bumping knots- my hourly rate.
I think I'm seeing a pattern here. :D

[Peter Drouin]

I have a simple system for custom sawing:

Timbers-my hourly rate.
8/4- my hourly rate.
4/4- my hourly rate.
3/4 to .5/4- my hourly rate.
Bucking your logs or bumping knots- my hourly rate.
I think I'm seeing a pattern here. :D

:D :D :D :D

[Dave Shepard]

It puts the burden of preparation and the cost of complexity on the customer. Perhaps that doesn't work for a customer that wants a fixed footage rate to predict the cost of 2x framing lumber, but I don't cut that for people, although it would be pretty easy to estimate the hourly production of 2x. I cut mostly timbers, or odd stuff for woodworkers, like butternut logs that are 38" on one end, and 36"x54" on the other that require a bunch of chainsaw work to get sawn, but yield a couple of dozen 24" wide boards. I've sawn pine beams that cost as low as $0.23 per board foot, and 30' white oak beams that were about $0.52 per board foot due to the added turning and care needed to produce a straight, well dimensioned timber. I know how much I need to get to make it worth starting the mill. I don't think that should change because of different requests from the customer.

[Joey Grimes]

I cut 300lf  3/4×6×10 cypress today out of my logs I charge the same for anything under a inch as I do for 1 inch.

[WV Sawmiller]

Dave,

   In your case I understand you using an hourly rate. As you noted, this puts the burden of preparation and the quality of the logs on the customer. The disadvantage is it also precludes you from making a bonus when you do get good wood, longer, thicker cuts and things just click where you stand to make more using a bf plan. The disadvantage to the customer is as you describe that they have no firm idea what their cost will be up front. I am sure repeat customers are much more comfortable with an hourly plan since they know they get good value.

   I have an hourly rate for small, dirty logs and specialty cutting when it is not economically feasible for me to cut. Many of us also have both a bf and hourly rate for similar reasons. My goal is to provide a good service at a competitive rate but going broke in the process is not part of my plan. Some jobs just aren't worth the time and effort.

[4x4American]

I forget who said it, but it's the truth.  You never lose money on a job you didn't take.

[thechknhwk]

Scsle & Charge for the logs, whatever the going rate is.  Then charge by the hour to saw them and make sure he is there to offbear them, lol.

[sandsawmill14]

i charge by the hour for resawing cants most which are splitting in half where a log isnt big enough for 3 cants and a scragg mill can't saw 2. i make a trim cut to resize for the kerf then saw in half so 2 cuts yields from 168 bd ft up to about 350 bd ft for the 16' long cants and i can do 8-10 per hr. that would be well over 300 bucks an hour if i charged by the bd ft and i dont feel right about that.
  you know that maybe how some of these companies get the max output for their mills ;)  like that our b20 will cut up to 1680 bdft per hour or up to 13440 bd ft per eight hour shift ;D :D :D :D

[Brucer]

The Canadian Softwood Grading manual defines a board foot (for material under 1" thick) as the nominal width in inches times the length in feet divided by 12. In other words, it treats the lumber as if it were 1" thick regardless of the actual thickness.

I always tell my customers that I follow the softwood grading rules. I make it clear what it will cost them. And if they question it, I show them the clause in the manual.

I don't negotiate my prices.

[rasman57]

"Wonder what it would cost if I get those 4 nice Red Oaks professionally milled once I buck them into logs and turn the rest into firewood"........that was my very first exposure to the whole world of milling.
   That lead me to the FF where I was able to start researching information to get answers.    I think in my case it was very useful to know a board foot labor cost since I did not know if a log could be loaded and cut in 1 hour or 4 hours.   I simply had no frame of reference back then.
   I don't know how much of customer base is brand new folks learning something new like I was but I was able to undertake that first project as a customer because I could make a connection to the logs size and the price.   That helped me initially understand that many folks simply have no basis for knowing what to expect.     Helping them understand probably  makes for repeat business.
   It did in my case with member Sawyer Brown until a dang new Boardwalk 40 followed me home one day and I decided to have a go at cutting my own hobby lumber.  Just my experience.
   

[hacknchop]

When i was sawing someone elses logs in my own yard i charged by the bdft flat rate no matter what dimension had my own support equipment ready, now on the road charged strictly by the hr otherwise customers would have me sawing all kinds of junkie logs and would sit back and watch me struggle with some big log or stickering whereas by the hr they were always quick to help and picky as to what they paid me to saw for them.As far as i know a nominal dimension is a standard set by regulatory boards and not individuals example is 2x4 are 11/2"x31/2 anything under no longer 2x4 becomes5/4x3/12 and does not meet building codes in north america.I do recall working for french  guy and when he wanted 1x4 he would say "Terry cut me some 2x4 an1" thick". :D

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Some jobs just aren't worth the time and effort.

......but every now and again we've all done it for one reason or another. 

[Dave Shepard]

Dave,

   In your case I understand you using an hourly rate. As you noted, this puts the burden of preparation and the quality of the logs on the customer. The disadvantage is it also precludes you from making a bonus when you do get good wood, longer, thicker cuts and things just click where you stand to make more using a bf plan. The disadvantage to the customer is as you describe that they have no firm idea what their cost will be up front. I am sure repeat customers are much more comfortable with an hourly plan since they know they get good value.

   I have an hourly rate for small, dirty logs and specialty cutting when it is not economically feasible for me to cut. Many of us also have both a bf and hourly rate for similar reasons. My goal is to provide a good service at a competitive rate but going broke in the process is not part of my plan. Some jobs just aren't worth the time and effort.

The way I see it, if the customer has really nice logs, then they get a bonus by having reduced sawing costs. Either way, I have covered what I need to operate the mill. If a customer wants to saw ugly, then they need to understand that sawing non-standard products will affect the board foot cost. As to not knowing in advance what it might cost them to saw their logs, I can give a pretty good estimate of what to expect. There are a couple of downsides to sawing for the rate that I charge. The first is, it sounds like a lot of money, even though it is probably about the same as a footage rate for decent logs. If someone pressed for a footage rate, I would  probably make more money in most instances. The second is that as I add handling equipment, my production rate goes up, and I will need to have a higher hourly rate. Even though the footage rate would probably stay the same for each type of sawing, like the $0.23 for pine and the $0.52 for white oak, my hourly output would go up, as well as my inputs and overhead. It's a tossup, if I can't cover the cost of higher production, then there is no point in doing it. The only way I would do a footage rate would be to specify what constitutes a "well manufactured*" log, and a set volume of logs, probably 5mbf or more.

* Well manufactured meaning 8'6"x10" minimum, well trimmed, evenly cut with no stump shot. Straight within set sweep limits, no rot, or rot scaled as sound, etc. Basically the same thing you would expect when selling logs to a commercial mill or broker.

[WV Sawmiller]

Dave,

   Well stated.

   I figure most important is for the customer to understand his and my responsibility and rates before starting the job. I probably send away as many or more customers as I accept because I find they don't understand what they want or need, want to use the wrong kind of wood for their application, etc. I tell them up front I will saw for them but they need to understand the ramifications up front. Most seem happy for the lesson and we both leave happy even if I don't get the job.

[WDH]

A friedn wanted me to saw some cedar logs for him.  This is what he showed up with. Had to be a GOOD FRIEND.  Customers will bring the most awful looking junk to be sawn.  That is why I do very little custom sawing.  I refer them to someone else. 



 

[Andries]

Jake brought you those logs all the way from Rentz?
Danny, it could be that YOU'RE the really good friend!
;D

[WDH]

 : :D :D

[Sixacresand]

Danny, Cookies from those small cedar limbs sell well at thrift/antique/flea stores.  I have no idea why.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

YAWN......those Cedars will makes some good paneling. Good thread David.







                                                                                                                                                               :D

[petefrom bearswamp]

when a potential customer squawks at my price be it by the BF or hourly, I tell him or her all they have to do is walk away. no harm no foul

[red]

If they are on the phone. Ask for their address . Explain you want to send them $100 now , because you already lost money .