Is it better to plan bigger?

[lawyer_sawyer]

Is bigger better?

I personally have 2-3 years of rough framing experience and why I started pursuing an inside type job was that there were so many people I worked with who had already injured themselves for life by either blowing out shoulders or elbows to perpetual back pain.

I would really like to go big enough on a saw when the time comes that I would have enough hydraulics to make excessive lifting something I would not be dealing with.  Injuring myself is the one worryI have because I would hate to get hurt and have to find another way to support my family.

So even though I would be starting small in time and opportunity work is it worth my time and money and in the long run good health to get as much machine as I could afford or would you reccommend otherwise.  Please I would love to hear any answes and also would appreciate if you could give me the reasons in your mind on the pros and cons.

[Ron Wenrich]

I always would go for the best machine you can afford.  Your production will be higher, reducing cutting costs and increasing profits.  You can add things later on.

I've sawn on manual and automatic circle mills.  A lot depends on how you handle weight.  I've always been taught to keep your back straight and lift with your legs.  I've turned logs that have weighed a ton by hand.  Understanding basic physics helps.   :D

I've seen skinny old guys working on mills for their entire life with no physical problems.  I've also seen old sawyers that were missing a few fingers.  Headsaws and dogs are usually where you lose them.

Right now I'm running everything automatic.  No one does any heavy lifting, and we saw some pretty heavy stuff.  Plan your mill out so that the grunt work is done with equipment. 

[DanG]

I agree with you about not abusing your body too much.  I know a lot of folks who have, and they suffer for it for a long time.

Sawing wood is hard work, any way you slice it. ;D  Having a mill that does a lot of the hard stuff for you will certainly cut down on the wear & tear, and that's a good consideration when selecting your outfit.  Support equipment is the real key here, though.  The more tools you have, the less manual labor is involved.

I have a Mobile Dimension Saw which pretty much does it all, once I have the log on it.  Thing is, when I cut a big board, say a 16' 2x10, the dragback hands that sucker straight to ME!  I gotta do something with it.  What I do, is park the forklift right behind the mill and slide the boards directly onto it.  When I finish the log, I can just go set the whole mess down somewhere before going on to the next log.  The point is, without that forklift, I'd be dead in the water.  It unloads the trailer or truck,  brings the logs to the mill and sets them on, accepts the lumber coming from the mill and stacks it, removes the slab from the mill, and loads the lumber back on the customer's trailer.  I also have a loader on my tractor to handle the sawdust, so my shovel time is greatly reduced. ;D 8)

All this applies to sawing at home, of course.  If you go portable, the customer is usually expected to handle the heavy work, and deal with the clean-up.  

In short, the answer to your question is, YES. :D

Oh yeah, don't forget about repetitive motion problems, either.  That seems to be the biggest health problem sawyers face.  It is more easily dealt with on some mills than others.  When you select your mill, be sure the controls operate easily and aren't located awkwardly.

[Ianab]

There is something to be said for buying the 'all bells and whistles' mill.
But for a guy starting out, part time, learning to saw... I dont know.
That thing about being tied to payments on a piece of equipment worries me, unless I'm sure it can bring in the returns each month.
If you set up right with a tractor for log handling, decent cant hooks / winches you can handle most stuff on a manual mill without wrecking your body. It just takes more planning / time. If you are sawing as a full time job, time is money, the hydralics pay for themselves. If you are sawing for yourself / learning then time isn't such an issue.

If you bought a decent second hand manual mill and ran it for a while you could saw boards of the same quality, learn about milling, build up a stock of wood. If things work out , sell the mill for around what you paid for it and get a better one. If it doesn't work, sell the mill, get most of your money back and still have a big heap of boards.

Things you learn about logs ...
levers are your friend.

[D._Frederick]

Nobody as ask about your supply of logs and how you plan on getting rid of the lumber. I would not like to tie up a lot of $$$ in equipment without having answers to the above.

The ownly way to save your body in the saw mill business is if you hire someone to do the work. If you have not been/worked around lumber making. Find an FF member by you and go an help them a week and see if you really like this type work, it is much harder than framing.

[lawyer_sawyer]

Thanks for the responses

D_Frederick to answer some questions and possibly ask more.
I have done just about everything you can think of but saw lumber so that hard work is not something I am afraid of.  by everything I mean I have done firewood full time, been loader/stacker on many days, weeks, months on hay wagons and in the barn, build large retaining walls, framed without large equipment support, roofed where all bundles had to be hand hauled.  So I am not afraid of the work just unnecessary work that could lead to injury.

the supply of logs right now seems pretty good.  the mill close to my parents were open to selling logs and giving away logs they themselves could not handle and were more work than to make into firewood (some nice stuff just the beauty is hidden beneath rippled bark with some slight bows in the trees).  Likewise I have family with land in the 6-8 hundred acre range with at least half of it in hardwoods.  they would be willing to sell me trees cheap or give them to me to help me get started.

work is also something that seems to be coming around already.  I have mentioned this idea of starting a portable sawmill and 2 mill owners I know have said they would love to have someone they could send work to that was too small for them to handle as well as I have a large network of friends who are farmers that would enjoy some lumber cut for farm uses.  Likewise I have 2 guys I worked for start a custom cabinet business and said they would be interested in hardwoods for that business especially if I further processed it.

the main thrust of my orignal question is it better to write up a business plan to get financing that incorporates the largest machine and try to justify that which I could or is it better to learn small and grow.  I don't want to hurt myself and much of what I would be learning on would be larger logs.  to me it makes sense to go as large as possible but like I said I have never done this so is there a big learning curve.  And kinda an odd question does splitting a lot of firewood and understanding how the grains in multiple species work help at all or is that knowledge not going to help much.

what is frustrating is that it is 14 months until I am done with school and the bar is behind me and I want to get outside and do this now.

thanks again for the questions it is a great idea to keep this newbie levelheaded

[D._Frederick]

L-S,

If you are good at lawyering, you can do about anything you want on the side.  There is a lawyer about 50 miles from me that is one of the best mal-practice attorneys here. He has a privite zoo on a section of land and has most of African game (no cats).

I still thing that it would do your schooling well if you would go work some hours with someone that is in the sawmill business that you are thinking about going into.  I think that I would get my feet on the ground with your law practice first, that will put you a few years down the road. In that time frame there will be a lot of new design to the portable sawmill equipment.

What sawyers like Jeff, Ron, Mary, Arkky, etc learn from sawing a lot of logs is they know from the out side what will be found inside a log. I don't no if you gained the same experience from fire wood.

[Ron Wenrich]

The learning curve can be steep, especially on good logs.  I'd throw firewood logs on a mill to learn how to cut.

But, where a sawyer is worth his salt is how well he can maintain a saw.  If your lumber has waves in it or is thick and thin, you will have problems selling it.  You will have to learn how to make a stack so that you can pull boards off of a log and end up at a desired thickness on the dog board.  Getting a saw to cut straight and true, cut after cut will take a lot of time.  You will also destroy some pretty good wood along the way.  Better to make your mistakes on low grade.

For grade sawing, its knowing when to stop and knowing when you can get another good cut of lumber.  That takes practice.  Jeff has sawn a million logs, and I would think I'm pretty close to that, if not past it. 

[DanG]

What Ron said is absolutely true.  However, you can learn a lot from firewood.  Paying attention to the way wood splits can teach you a lot about the characteristics of that wood.  You can play with your firewood, too.  I frequently sit around in the shop in the evenings, and during the winter, I usually have a little fire going.  When I find an interesting piece of wood, I take it to the table saw and see what I can do with it.  You'd be surprised what little gems you can find in the firewood pile. ;D  You might find that this practice will satisfy your sawmill urges while you wait to get a real mill, too.  You can get a pretty decent little table saw from Lowe's for about $87.  It ain't fancy or powerful, but it will cut wood.

[Buzz-sawyer]

DanG

I had one of those Lowes Delta saws..wouldnt cut (rip) Cotton wood or elm.........

Lawyer

I built my mill but have an opinion about your situation. From what you have said about your cheap free supply, ready customers etc.......If you bought a $30,000 mill with all the good stuff, I see that as a lot better purchase than  a SUV or high end pick up truck!!!!
My point, you can use the mill a LONG time and it will depriciate MUCH less than buying a new truck.

[Cedarman]

I am going out on a limb here so I could get it sawed off. But I believe that a lot of injuries are caused when a person is not in shape and does something unusual with their bodies.  I have worked physical in my youth, baling hay, worked in the oil well service sector, ran a custom baling business and for the last 20 years a sawmill business.  I believe safety is number one in all aspects of logging or sawing. 
I started (July of last year) using lower and upper body weight machines at the YMCA from none to 3 times per week. It has made a difference in my muscle tone and gotten rid of my knee aches.

When a weekend warrior does activity that they are not used to, then injuries can result. Look at the number of injuries in people who play basketball or tennis only once in a while.

I hope to stay active logging, sawmilling, hiking, caving for many more years. I am 57 now.  But I know I need regular weight training and exorcise to maintain my fitness.

[Ron Wenrich]

I gotta agree with that.  Sawing in on an automatic can get to be pretty tiring.  I told a trucker it was like driving 80 mph in rush hour traffic.  But, you get out of shape pretty quick.

I do a lot of walking and a little bit with weights.  I got rid of the riding mower a number of years ago, and have used walk behinds.  When I stop doing the exercises for awhile, I will feel sluggish and some aches will come back.  I get muscle cramps that is related to the repetitive motion.

The biggest problem for weekenders would be the lifting.  Real easy to blow out your back.  If you don't have a back support, you can get them at the local hardware store or at Lowe's.  The stackers at the mill use them, and they help the backs pretty much.

[Brucer]

I planned bigger, but I started small.

My production is going to be limited at first by lack of customers. The customers are there, but it will take a season or two before my mill is the limiting factor. So I started with a bare bones manual mill and I have a list of upgrades that I will add as demand and income grow.

Eventually I expect (hope) I'll have to replace the mill. It might seem better to start with a hydraulic mill with all the bells and whistles, but it will be several years before I'll have the work to keep the mill busy. In the meantime, there'll be improvements to the mill designs, and new options (there always are  ;)). When I finally need the extra capacity, I'll be getting the most up-to-date mill instead of making huge payments for capacity I won't be able to use at first.