Lucas Mill 830 Vs Peterson WPF 8"

[flanajb]

I have narrowed my purchase down to one of the above and I am hoping someone who has experience can help me.

I am constrained by budget, but I want to make sure I don't make a mistake and purchase something that I regret in the long run for the sake of spending more now.

1. I really like the WPF as I will be working on my own and I think the single winch for lowering the carriage must make it more accurate and time saving.

2.  The Lucas seems to have a winch at either end and I can see how you spend more time walking from one end to the other lowering the carriage than you do cutting timber ?

3. I suspect that having to lower the carriage via 2 winches on the Lucas there is significant room for getting timber that starts 2" at one end and ends being 1 3/4" at the other end, where as with the Peterson that is not possible ?

It is a tough one as I can get a used Lucas for nearly half the cost of the Peterson, but I would rather get the right machine

Thanks

[sigidi]

Flanajb, I am a Lucas owner/operator. I've been the 'sole' operator of my mobile sawmilling business for almost 6 years using a Lucas 6-18. I just upgraded to a 10-30.

1. I have a mate here in Aus (goes by the name of Rude on our woodwork forum) he has a 10" WPF Peterson. Late last year and a bit into this year was working with another sawmilling mate (from our forum - Weisyboy) he remarked how easy and quick it was to setup Weisyboys 8" Lucas as compared to his Peterson WPF. I was surprised as I thought the two would be comparable to each other., Rude also mentioned how easy everything packed up with the Lucas carriage not being housed inside WPF housing. I can't speak from personal experience on Petersons as I haven't operated one, although I'm sure someone here will chime in soon.

2. The endframes normally sit a maximum of 6m 20' (or 8m 27' if you have the 2m extension kit) apart so yep, there is 12m of extra walking per layer of timber, but it hardly constitutes more time adjusting the rails as compared to cutting. I try to put the endframes at the smallest distance apart needed to accommodate the logs I have (within reason - I don't put them less than around 4m apart or the mill may become unstable) more often than not the log dump isn't all nice and neat so they need to be kept apart to accommodate where the logs are. From personal experience it takes a 20-30sec to walk to adjust each endframe. Now sure if you stuff up and don't set it low enough when first opening the log, you need to drop the rails again, but lack of experience on any mill will produce extra work for you.

Another thing, we had our first Portable Sawmill Showdown last year down under (very similar to your guys Shootout) there where only 3 sawmills represented, Lucas (factory team, and two private Lucas owners) Peterson (Qld region representative) and Eco-Saw (factory team) With it being our first ever kind of thing, it was on the small side as compared to the shootout you guys get to have each year. One of the private Lucas owners pulled out after cutting but before getting their timber judged and graded. The other private Lucas owner got the best recovery, the Lucas factory team got the best volume per hour and there was a misunderstanding which lead to some large leeway in accuracy needing to be given on our first Showdown. Basically the Peterson team cut using imperial measurements and everyone else cut using metric measurements - so there had to be some leeway given and reminders made for next year concerning explicit cutting instructions:) How do Lucas rate in your guys Shootout with respect to volume per hour? I'd say (from my milling experience) there isn't much time 'lost' in adjusting the endframes and definitely not more time spent adjusting than cutting.

3. What you mention is possible. I find the times something like this may happen is if/when I may use a greenhorn (more often than not I mill on my own) but even if the new guy winds up the ratchet instead of down, therefore producing a tapered cut, you get to see it in the piece of waste you take off the side of the log before you get into the lumber you are cutting and thus there is no loss. I have a system I use each and every time I change depths of cut on my Lucas, once you start milling you will develop systems yourself. So when milling on my own, I just don't experience the scenario you mention. In the instance the greenhorn stuffs up, I warn them about the possibility of it when showing/instructing them and I let them know if they do make a mistake or think they might have to let me know straight away and I can fix it without any trouble. Again lack of experience on either a Peterson or a Lucas will produce a bit of extra work for you.

4. Yeah I know, you didn't have a '4' but here's something I've found with having the two endframes; flexibility. It was mentioned here recently about making a device to lift/level logs for when using a Peterson. With my Lucas I can adjust the rails to account for the lay of the land, tapered logs, the butt of the log being at one end on one log and then at the other end on the next log. Even 6 years down the track I am amazed at the flexibility I've got from my Lucas.

Now I have to tell you I am a dedicated Lucas fan (can ya tell ;D) I've been using their sawmill to run my business and build our family home. I bought my first Lucas without even touching one and other than not buying a bigger machine at the time, which I thought my leg injury wouldn't be able to cope with the extra weight associated with a larger mill, I haven't had a single regret. I can't speak personally for Petersons (the some other lads will no doubt) but the Lucas after sales support/service has been nothing less than fantastic.

I'll happily go into any detail on my experiences using a Lucas for my business or to make the timber we have used to build our home - just ask me ;) ;D

[flanajb]

Hi sigidi, many thanks for taking the time to put together such comprehensive reply.  Given that the Lucas Mill I can get is nearly hald the price of the Peterson I think it makes sense to go for the Lucas.

From what you say it seems that there is not a massive difference between the 2 mills except the single winch system on the WPF

[sigidi]

Flanajb, I can't speak for a Peterson as I haven't had experience using them, but I haven't found the two endframes on my Lucas to be an issue whilst milling, if anyone was to find a problem with the 'extra walking' I would and believe me if ya ever saw my right leg you'd understand  :( :'(

but i can't complain any, it was the factor which led me to becoming a miller in the first place 8) ;D and I just love making sawdust ;)

[Dakota]

I second what Sigidi said.  The flexability of being able to adjust your rails for taper etc. is well worth the walk.
Dakota

[Captain]

Really?  Twice the price?  Wow.  Glad I don't have to buy my WPF now in the current market.  When I bought my original WPF about 10 years ago, the price difference was only about 30% betwen it and a Lucas 8". 

I'm going to chime in and say that having cut thousands of hours with a Peterson WPF and several hundred on a Peterson ATS (which has moving rails like the Lucas, but at the same end NOT opposite ends)  I would hands down take the production frame when sawing by myself. 

However at twice the price, I would seriously have to look at the Lucas.  Really? Twice the price?  Wow.

Captain

[flanajb]

However at twice the price, I would seriously have to look at the Lucas.  Really? Twice the price?  Wow.

Captain

Sorry Captain I should have mentioned that it is twice the price because the Lucas is a used mill with only 10 hours on it where as the Peterson would be a new mill.  Second hand mills here in the UK are like rocking horse *"!&.  They just don't exist!

[sigidi]

However at twice the price, I would seriously have to look at the Lucas.  Really? Twice the price?  Wow.

Captain

Sorry Captain I should have mentioned that it is twice the price because the Lucas is a used mill with only 10 hours on it where as the Peterson would be a new mill.  Second hand mills here in the UK are like rocking horse *"!&.  They just don't exist!

Holy Heck 10 hours!! she's not even warmed up, I'm with Captain, go the Lucas, you'd still have original warranty here in Aus too, not sure if they operate the same in UK, but here if she's less than 2 years old the warranty transfers. You can't go wrong and even if ya didn't end up making some massive fortune you've just told me your re-sell market is very strong, so in a sense you can't lose...

[ErikC]

  I think the price difference is a deal-maker on this one. I love my Peterson, and at this point would pay a higher comparative price for another one. But you don't have any reason to do that, and although I would rather have a Peterson, Lucas are not junk. I have been around a few of them guys I know ran, and they are well made. With 10 hours it has less wear than a lot of demo models. For half price I'd buy it right away ;)

[Captain]

Hey, Allan is putting words in my mouth I said SERIOUSLY LOOK  ;D

[sigidi]

... I said SERIOUSLY LOOK  ;D

Yeah Ok I'll pay that one ;D Captain ya did say look - but I reckon once flanajb looks at the Lucas... that'll be it, he'll be out of the sawmill buying market  ;)

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Allans spoton in his post and said just about everything already and like him Im a lucas man and have got two mills an 11yo 8-20 with a briggs and a new 10-30 and very happy with the runn im having and will get out of both of them I also have all the extras for my mills  ;) ;D ;D 8)

Theres afew things to consider ontop of just the same old agument of single v two point sizing I and any decent sawyer can get consistantly under the +- tollerances for sawn timber im within about +- 1 to 2 mm of target size And w/out much time loss if you set the mill up with both winches on the sawyers side of the machine  ;) and from my exp the lucas would be the quickest and best suited mill to settup in a portable situation and an unknown ground conditions and  log supply Flexabilitys and Quick settup is the name of the game Mate  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

with price lets compair apples with apples New Mill Prices would you rather get either an 8-30 Lucas with alot of the extras or even a 10-30 with a few for the same price as a basic Peterson   ??? ??? and another thing to think about is build/delivery time Lucas has a good dealer network that generaly have mills instock and delivery times pretty short ive noticed some long wait times on here for petersons around 3 months due to being a built to order mill   ;) My 10-30 was ready within a week  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) but i do live only 3 hrs from the factory  ;) :D ;D ;D 8)

If you can get hold of the 8-30 with 10 hrs on it go for it you cant go wrong  ;) if not buy a new one Mate  ;) ;D ;D ;D

Regards Chris

[hogs4hobby]

i have bought two lucas's so far a 618 & 1030. i love them. the two end frame winchs does not slow you down once you learn the in & outs to them. i saw some syp logs this past sat. 8" to 16" dia. had two fellows stacking & we managed to turn out about 2900 bft in small logs for about 8hrs off sawing.

  i belive both mills are good choices. i looked at peterson hard an long before i bought my 1030.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

H4H thats bloody good going in small logs Mate 2900 bft/6.82 m3 sawn and you would have punched out a fair bit more than that  if you where on 20 inch + logs too mate ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) that being said with either mill you realy need a couple of good blokes to get into the higher production figures  ;)  ;D 8)  when your working solo production isnt realy an issue as you can saw more than enough in a day on your own to make a better than average living the bit that knocks you about is doing the sawing stacking and everything else on your own and that goes for any decent well made portable mill  ;)

Regards Chris

[Captain]

That's great production, Hogs.  But you guys are ignoring the fact that he is working alone.  I've never seen a guy with a Lucas in a production situation adjusting both of his verticals while his help was standing around.  The helper is making things faster by adjusting a vertical for the operator, or with 2 helpers, the operator is not doing it at all.  I will admit, however, that the operator when working alone has to walk with the finished pieces or the waste pieces.  With a Lucas, you're walking out of the end of the rails if you're trying to keep stuff neat and orderly, whereas I often stack over the low rail with my Peterson setup.  In this situation, the operator is walking by the adjustment anyhow, so no further steps are needed.  In situations where there are 2 qualifed operators on a Lucas, as proven time and time again in the Sawmill Shootout, there is little or no speed dfference between the 2 mills.

I've cut with both styles of mill, and I far prefer to cut on a WPF especially a WPF with an E-winch for vertical sizing when working alone.  As stated before, the cost difference AND the fact that you are gaining 2" of cut capacity has to be considered in your decision.  That's a great price for a 10-30 Lucas.

[flanajb]

One final question that I am struggling with is how you go about sourcing lumber.  I have spoken with a few tree surgeons and intial thoughts are not that positive as they seem to suggest that there is not much stuff around.

I was under the impression that most people just find large butts to difficult to remove and just want people to take them off their hands, but here in the UK that does not seem the case ?

[mcfcfan]

Hi Flanajb,
Maybe you should have a demo with both your prefered options.
You can then make an informed decision based on performance and price.
I must say though that if the Lucas is half the price of the WPF that is very cheap.
The WPF has many features such as the Hi / Lo track system, electric winch, totally unlimited track length, 38Hp motor on the 10 inch model.
Good luck

[wtf]

Hi Flanajb,
I'd like to put may 2 cents in on this. I bought my WPF 8" 8 years ago. Now, I'll have to admitt that I don't like too work any more than I have to. So I use Peterson's Low-low track set up, so I just step over the track rather than walk around them. Also I really like using one winch to raise/lower the mill and not the tracks. I also found that if someone interrupts me while I am setting up the next cut, I don't forget how much I lowered the mill ( one winch) I have set mine up in road ditches, in front yards, and pastures and it is an easy set up and pack up. I can do it in 10-15 min. alone. If I were starting out again, I would still go with a Peterson WPF, it's so easy to use and the fit / finish, and support are top of the line.
Russ

[sigidi]

One final question that I am struggling with is how you go about sourcing lumber.  I have spoken with a few tree surgeons and intial thoughts are not that positive as they seem to suggest that there is not much stuff around.

I was under the impression that most people just find large butts to difficult to remove and just want people to take them off their hands, but here in the UK that does not seem the case ?

Flanajb, I find log supply the most frustrating part of owning a 'sawmill' I know I can make a pretty nice paypacket for my family with the figures I've been regularly pushing through the mill on mobile jobs, if the work was more constant, so I figure the way to make it constant is to get logs... if you got logs, the mill can run 5 days a week and you have something in ya pocket to use while spending time with the family on ya weekend.

Now admittedly I haven;t pushed hard, trying to 'find' logs I feel if I was full time looking for logs and milling I could get as many as I wanted and more, but I need a bit more capital behind me to be able to cover crane truck fee's and log purchase fees prior to milling and selling the timber, once the cycle has started, then no worries.

Best place I can advise is see land developers, when they being new estates etc. but be sure to keep your word and do as you have promised. All too often I come across guys who would rather pay a bill to have the timber made into garden mulch, than give it away, because fellas come to them promise to remove it, then leave 'em with it and then the guys have a huge problem getting rid of a bunch of logs.

Keep in touch with your tree arborists etc. they get hold of logs all the time. get hold of some names of guys who operate excavators and dozers, they are the ones pushing trees over all the time. maybe even contact your local council to see if you can cut for the council some of the logs which come into the dump...

Mate logs are everywhere ;D ;) good luck

[sigidi]

2.  The Lucas seems to have a winch at either end and I can see how you spend more time walking from one end to the other lowering the carriage than you do cutting timber ?

Hey Flanajb, I never realised this, and only found out tonight on our Aussie forum, but with a Peterson like an ATS, with having the rails adjusting at one end, you can't just raise one side up as high as needed, then go to the other rail and raise it up, you gotta go back and forth between rails keepin no more than about 200mm 8" difference between the rails until you get the height you need. So no wonder the WPF is pushed so much it'd get really painful going side to side takin 3-4 bites to get the mill up over logs.

[wtf]

Sigidi, I think you may have miss understood. The Peterson ATS only has a winch at one end of the rails. It raises the the entire rail at one time. Two winches, one for each rail and they are at the same end of the mill set up.
Russ

[sigidi]

Well I have to admit, I'd never thought about it happening, so I could be wrong...but what was explained to me was when rail 'A' is raised,  it can't be raised 3' foot and then Rail 'B' raised 3' as the carriage is then 'twisted'...



in my rudimentary drawing (apologies for the quality and admittedly it isn't to scale) it looks as though about the depth of a rail would be the most one could have either side 'out of height' with the other side so around the 8" 200mm I was told by a Peterson owner here in Aus???

[NZJake]

Hi guys,

Thought I'd chime in here... Just thought I'd put you guys straight with the ATS thing. You can near enough lift as I recall on my machine around 800mm to 1m before anything would bind. There's enough flex in the idler winch to accommodate this.

What you might consider is lifting the carriage weight is near enough halved with the ATS as the carriage is divided between the winches regardless of position, length ways...

I would expect to achieve this same weight distribution on the Lucas, you would need to park the carriage mid way the track lengths each raise and lower...

Jake.

[Captain]

Jake designed it, he would know  ;D

[sigidi]

Hi guys,

Thought I'd chime in here... Just thought I'd put you guys straight with the ATS thing. You can near enough lift as I recall on my machine around 800mm to 1m before anything would bind. There's enough flex in the idler winch to accommodate this.

Jake, as I've said a few times, I've never used one, but was just relaying what an owner/operator had stated on our Aussie forum. I know it's another forum, but you might want to pop your head inhttp://www.woodworkforums.com/f132/portable-mill-advice-114868/index2.html and set him straight? Post number 17

What you might consider is lifting the carriage weight is near enough halved with the ATS as the carriage is divided between the winches regardless of position, length ways...

I would expect to achieve this same weight distribution on the Lucas, you would need to park the carriage mid way the track lengths each raise and lower...

I understand what you are saying with half the weight on each winch. If ever using a helper, I always take the 'carriage' winch although I don't know how much 'heavier' it actually is. I've personally not had any trouble with the different weights on different winches (I reckon the gear ratio must be calculated well) having said this I have had one time where the different weights have saved my bacon... I had a four day job and was on the morning of the 4th day when I noticed a crack at the weld on one of my winch handles, so I swapped it to the 'light' winch and it got me through the job without busting, and I fixed her up at home. Turns out the way I have been loading the mill into my truck for the last 6 years put stress on the winch handle and thus the weld and after that time she decided to let go, not bad I reckon 6 years to break it- mind you, I now have a different loading system for Bo Derek and don't foresee the same thing happening again ;D

[Part_Timer]

I have cut a few hours on both and I do like the Peterson much better.  Half the price is a big deal breaker but I would still buy the Peterson or at least look for an ATS.  The ATS is a lot closter the the Lucas in function and price.
Just my.02