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work shop build

Started by DDW_OR, November 16, 2022, 09:47:43 PM

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DDW_OR

shop will be inside a 30x60x14 polebarn
shop will be clear span 30x20x??. cement floor with in-floor-heating from the Central Boiler 760HDX

my questions
1 - How high should it be, 8, 10, 12, or full 13 ft high
2 - should i put all dust collection ducts above, below, or both
3 - there will be future wood working CNC machines
3a - what should i look for
3b - what should i avoid
4 - is there a way to make the sawdust/chips into logs or pellets that can be burned in the downdraft furnace

power will be 240v at 100 amp from the house. if the business grows then its own meter

equipment as of now.
Air Compressor - 5 HP
Band saw 14 inch - Floor
Band saw - Bench
Jointer - Floor
Miter saw 10 inch, Yard sale
Miter saw - Ryobi 120v
Planer - Ridged - 18 inch
Planer - Woodmaster 725 - 24 inch
Sander Bench
Scroll saw
Table Saw - 10 inch delta
"let the machines do the work"

Greenie

Ceiling as high as affordable. Lighting (which can be broken handling long lumber) and dust collection will occupy the top foot of the area.
Whether it's prohibited by insurance or not, wood or pellet heating in the same area could be a source of fire or even explosion (grain silo dust). An OWB would be the safest form of heat where you could burn waste safely. Painting the interior walls white makes it easier to light and easier to see.
Placing the dust collection outside would be the cleanest but then you're pulling lots of heated air outside with the dust. My only experience has been with dust collection venting up on the ceiling with feeders dropping down.

It sounds like your power is like mine - likely not up to code by running two buildings off one meter. The house can easily use 30 amps depending on clothes dryers, electric range, or other electric water heaters. Depending on the distance of the run and the size of the cable you ran to the building there could be voltage drop. Then there's the starting factor of the planer and air compressor, and table saw - when first started these draw much more amperage than what they use when running - sometimes it's almost like a dead short. My 5 HP compressor will trip breakers if I attempt to run it on too long or too small of an extension cord - it needs the full 15 or 20 amps (whatever it's listed at) to start. Motors and or wiring can get hot if there's not the full power right at the source.

Don P

I don't knock out lights with these new LEDs. I also cannot really heat the tall shop. Open the door, the flies come in. Close the door, its hot again. Life sure gets tedious don't it?

If you solve 4 you'll be a rich man, any number of missed attempts will agree, choose you battles  :).

Underfloor ducts need to be in trenches you can open, chunks go into floor stuff, avoid floor sweeps! Go overhead and have enough suction to avoid settling out of the airstream.

Tom K

How big of a CNC are you talking, a little 2'x2' table top or a 6'x12' monster? Your shop size could get real tight if your planning on a full size CNC. I'm afraid you're going to be tight on space.

The kind of work you plan to do would make a difference to me on most of your questions. 

I'm in the finishing stages right now for my wood shop. While I have thought about building this shop for years there are still a couple things that I missed and should have done a little difference, but there is a lot I did right. The biggest thing I did right was to not build a pole barn, full foundation and stick framing is the only way to go if you plan on heating and finishing off the inside. I get pole barns are easy to throw up, but with all cost considered by the time you insulate and finish one out your the same cost as stick building, but stick built gives you a better building.

My dust collection will be cyclone system with ceiling mounted ductwork & drops. I wired 240v power in EMT inside the wall to the proposed location of my shapers, jointer, table saw, and planer. I have one floor box that I plan on building a power pedestal for to power a couple of those. The walls are all sheeted with plywood and painted light gray, ceiling is white liner panel with low profile surface mounted LED strip lights. I light natural light so I have 5 windows along with 2 high quality insulated overhead doors with windows. My ceiling height is 11'-4" which let me get 10' high OH doors and plenty of room to spin sheets of plywood around.

Don's comment about heating a tall shop is spot on, and why I only went 11'-4". I would have liked to go 14', but heating 24/7 in my climate would have been a little pricey. 

Old Greenhorn

Some questions and a couple of thoughts to add:
Is this a full time operation or a hobby shop?
Do you intend to use it as a retirement business?
How many people working in the shop at any given time?

If this is, and will always be a hobby shop, you are on the right track. If your plans are, or might change to possibly generating some income, think about your expansion/upgrades going forward, such as 220v for the bigger dust collectors, planers, and such as you grow. Also wanting to add a phase converter for that 'special deal machine' you find down the road to make a jump in production. If you have more than one person working at the same time, more electric draw will tax or overload your panel. When the time comes, put in the biggest panel you can, even for 100A because number of circuits is a tough thing to fix later (I am hard against that now) and makes it's easier to figure your wiring out and overdo it a little bit up front. I work alone so only a limited number of things run at the same time. I have a 100A service from the 200A house service just as you plan. Yes, it is all up to code. My shop is 25x40 block built with 15' ceiling and insulated attic, came with the house (that's why I bought this house) so I am stuck with with what is there already. I am getting ready to change out the panel in the shop for a bigger one and rewire, because the original job was 'spartan' at best and messy. I'm tired of working around it.

 Put a few bucks into insulated doors, it will pay for itself (I don't have these and regret that).

 As for the high ceiling/heat issue I will take exception to some others. Heat will stratify in a stagnant room and this is why folks think it's hard to heat, which it is, UNLESS you break up the layers of heat. I have mentioned this several times in other threads. I have a simple cheap ceiling fan I hung in my shop the first year we moved in. It has run 24/7/365 for over 30 years on a low setting and draws much less than an amp. It will keep the shop from freezing all winter unless we have at least a week of below zero temps and I never turn on the heat. With the woodstove running it keeps all the air in the shop moving and smooths out the temps well (the exception being those two front garage doors). The high ceiling allowed me to add lofts upstairs over the past 7 years and I now have more than half the shop with a loft above. I have no loft in front of the main 14' door in case I have to bring a large [something] in to work on it. This has added a LOT of working space for me. At any rate, my thermal stratification is only noticeable during the morning warmups when I reload the stove. It can be 68 down around the stove and 65 upstairs until the temp settles in. Sometimes upstairs is 1 or 2 degrees warmer during the working day. I have no blowers or circulators on the stove, it's just stove.

 Anyway, these are just some observations in case you find them useful. It's your shop, hopefully a dream shop, so take your time, do it as you wish, and enjoy the ride!:)
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

PoginyHill

Ceiling fans will help to equalize heat in a tall shop. No sense letting all that warm air hang out up there.
Kubota M7060 & B2401, Metavic log trailer, Cat E70B, Cat D5C, 750 Grizzly ATV, Wallenstein FX110, 84" Landpride rotary hog, Classic Edge 750, Stihl 170, 261, 462

Tom K

Type of heat makes a big difference in stratification. With radiant floor heat like the OP is talking about this should not be as much of an issue as with using forced air or wood heat. If you dial in your water temp. and flow rates right you should get fairly even heating throughout the height profile.

Hopefully I can test this theory soon as I hope to get my floor heat hooked up this weekend. I also planned for 3 low speed high volume ceiling fans as well though..

21incher

I think everything really depends on if it will be used 100% for a home shop or you plan on taking  it commercial one day and selling  items. If you plan on going into the commercial  arena I definitely  would talk with your  local building department to see what permits, variances or other legal items will have to be addressed in the future along with the upgrades required and the chances of being  able to use it for your intended purpose.  Your insurance  company  should be able to help you with the best options  to keep insurance  down. 
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

DDW_OR

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on November 17, 2022, 10:01:26 AM
Is this a full time operation or a hobby shop?
Do you intend to use it as a retirement business?
How many people working in the shop at any given time?

.... plans are, or might change to possibly generating some income, ... expansion/upgrades .... add a phase converter... put in the biggest panel .....tough thing to fix later .... and overdo it a little bit up front....I work alone...Yes, it is all up to code......Put a few bucks into insulated doors, ....a simple cheap ceiling fan...... keeps all the air in the shop moving and smooths out the temps well ......
hobby shop for now, sub contract to local cabinet shops
retirement income for the last 12 years has been from stock dividends averaging 7 to 9%
Just me working. do not plan to hire anyone
Phase converter is a great Idea. i have a 3-phase panel
240v 200 amp panel, 2/0 aluminum from the house
if orders increase i will put in a 200 amp service to the polebarn
pole barn will be insulated with spray foam
concrete floor in two parts. first is the barn-shop
second at a later date the rest of the polebarn
all buildings will be heated from the OWF
have 3 cheep ceiling fans still in their boxes
pole barn 35 deg
barn-shop 45 deg with 75 on demand
no ducts in the floor. all overhead
thinking 10 foot high
14-10=4 feet of storage above barn-shop
14-8= 6 feet
CNC
a 6'x12' monster, with automatic bit changer
a CNC that looks like an 18 inch planer
and several of the 2'x2' table top to make scrap into DIY kits
Kid toys
knik nak shelves
jewelry boxes
bird houses
other ??
cyclone system
A  and B = 20' beam
C = cyclone system cabinet. air return to Barn-shop through a Hepa filter. large door to the right to remove sawdust and chips
D = Power panel
there is an area inside the polebarn 15x30 to build larger projects



 
"let the machines do the work"

Don P

You'll lose ~a foot of depth to the ceiling framing  ;)

aigheadish

Sounds like a fun project and you gotta love those dividends! 

Keep posting and lets see some pictures! I have a pole barn (40x48x16) that in the future I could see turning part of (or adding on to) into a bigger shop at about 20'x30' so you'll likely give me some good ideas. 

My only major complaint with my little shop (22'x13'ish), and it doesn't sound like it'll be an issue for yours as it's almost double the size of mine, is that I found out, on my first project, that my shop wasn't long enough in either direction, really. To rip a 12 foot long board on the table saw I need to go through the walk-in door and have the big doors open to the back yard. I also have everything on wheels and too much junk in there, so I move stuff around a lot. It sounds like your plans would be much less mobile. I'd love to be able to turn a 12 or 16 foot long piece of wood around in the shop but that ain't happening. Neither is miter saw on a long piece. 
New Holland LB75b, Husqvarna 455 Rancher, Husqvarna GTH52XLS, Hammerhead 250, Honda VTX1300 for now and probably for sale (let me know if you are interested!)

scsmith42

The ceiling in the 50' x 60' main room of my woodshop is 15'6" above the floor.  This allows me to run ductwork along the ceiling yet still be able to back a semi-sized van or large RV into the shop.  Plus I don't have to worry about clearance for the forklift mast.

Radiant heating is fantastic!  When mine is running, I can point an infra-red thermometer to the floor, equipment, and ceiling and all are within 1 - 2 degrees.  There is not much of a problem with hot air near the ceiling and cold air at the floor.

In my shop all of the load centers (there are four) are on one side of the shop.  Connecting all 4 is some 6" rectangular conduit that runs horizontally underneath all of them.  The upper side of the rectangular conduit has multiple 2" conduits to each load center.  Underneath the rectangular conduit is a network of dedicated 3" conduits that go beneath the slab and pop up in every wall around the shop.  Some walls along the 60' sides have two conduits popping up - around 15' from each end.  The conduits terminate in a junction box that has 1-1/2" conduit running horizontally through the wall, terminating in a series of 4" boxes.

This system allows me to pull new wiring to just about any wall in the shop as my equipment needs change.  Because I'm going underneath the slab, each run is around 20' shorter than if I went overhead (and I do have some overhead drops for equipment that is not near a wall).

Ditto Old Greenhorn's recommendation for insulated doors.  Go overkill on the insulation if you can.

Here are my panels:



 


The first two panels on the left are for 240 single phase.  The medium sized panel to their right is 240 3 phase, and the large panel to the left of the double doorway is the 480 3 phase panel.  Behind the doorway is a 400hp generator that outputs 480 to the large panel.  Unseen is a step down transformer, 30hp rotary phase converter and transfer switch that are in one corner of the generator room.  They allow me to create 240 3 phase from either the generator (via the step down transformer) or from the rotary phase converter.  

There is an overhead rectangular conduit also that has drops for several of the 480V machines.

Below is some of the dust collection system.  The lines are routed so that I can back a semi sized van into the middle of the shop.  My wife's veterinary practice has two Freightliner chassis mobile surgical hospitals, and if emergency maintenance is required I'm usually the guy pulling the all-nighter to get them back in service so that they don't have to cancel a surgery day.  In the winter, being able to pull the unit into the radiant floor heated shop for repair is a Godsend!



 

So to sum it up, I'd recommend the extra ceiling height if you're using radiant heating.  Plus it's nice to have the headroom to lift a board up and swing it around w/o hitting a light fixture.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Tom K

If you're planning on that large of a CNC, plus all your other tool list I think you're going to be way small on the shop size. If you cutting box parts for cabinet shops I would think you're going to want access with a tow motor for handling sheet goods, both ingoing and outgoing.

Maybe I'm just not reading your post right, is you pole barn a 30'x60' with 14' eaves that's already built? If so there is no way I'd invest the time and effort to drop the ceiling any lower then the 14' you already have. If it's not built yet ideally I would push it to 16' high so you can get a 14' OH door that you can back a box truck up to for deliveries & shipments. 

DDW_OR

Quote from: aigheadish on November 18, 2022, 08:04:39 AM
Sounds like a fun project and you gotta love those dividends!

.... a pole barn (40x48x16) .... (or adding on to)...20'x30' so you'll likely give me some good ideas.

......long enough in either direction, really. To rip a 12 foot long board on the table saw ....... Neither is miter saw on a long piece.
ripping lumber is what i use the sawmill for. can do a 21 foot board
add to the length of your polebarn.
add the poles, pour the concrete, then build the addition
i think the center ridge of your polebarn runs the length if the 48 feet, so make it 24 feet longer and same with of 40 feet
add a BIG door to get tractor and other big stuff in
always build bigger than you think you need. i am limited on my 1.5 acres. 30x60 is as big as the setbacks allow

i get my rolling wire racks from places like Costco
then the large sheets of cardboard to cut to put on top of the wire shelves
then i flip the Starbucks boxes in-side-out to use for storage, organizing, or to hold tools and parts for projects
then i open the empty box flat to store in the RV under the bed

this winter i have the equivalent of 5 houses of stuff to sort for the yardsale this spring
sorted into these groupings
Keep
Ebay
donate
yardsale
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

Quote from: Tom K on November 18, 2022, 11:12:18 AM
...small on the shop size. If you cutting box parts for cabinet shops I would think you're going to want access with a tow motor for handling sheet goods, both ingoing and outgoing.

Maybe I'm just not reading your post right, is you pole barn a 30'x60' with 14' eaves that's already built? If so there is no way I'd invest the time and effort to drop the ceiling any lower then the 14' you already have. If it's not built yet ideally I would push it to 16' high so you can get a 14' OH door that you can back a box truck up to for deliveries & shipments.
pole barn is already built with a gravel floor that can be dug down if necessary
i have several engendered I-beam wooded joists, 6 are 36 ft long the other 6 are about 16+
i thought of 14 ft (actually 13ft) barn-shop ceiling, but want to store light weight stuff on top
i still have the house garage for use 19x21x7.5 with a concrete floor
it is not long enough or tall enough for the vehicles
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

Quote from: scsmith42 on November 18, 2022, 08:34:23 AM
..... a semi-sized van or large RV into the shop.  .....Radiant heating is fantastic!  ....This system allows me to pull new wiring to just about any wall in the shop as my equipment needs change.  Because I'm going underneath the slab, each run is around 20' shorter than if I went overhead (and I do have some overhead drops for equipment that is not near a wall).

Ditto Old Greenhorn's recommendation for insulated doors.  Go overkill on the insulation if you can.

....  In the winter, being able to pull the unit into the radiant floor heated shop for repair is a Godsend!
......it's nice to have the headroom to lift a board up and swing it around w/o hitting a light fixture.
the barn-shop will be in the back 1/3 of the polebarn. i still have the front 2/3 for large stuff (Pickups, vans, trailers, tractors, excavator, sawmill, firewood processor)
I agree, overkill on the insulation
my dad had an auto-body shop. he had to let the vehicle warm up before he worked on it
"let the machines do the work"


DaleK

Build it tall so when you decide it's too small you can add a leanto on each side
Hud-Son Oscar 330
Wallenstein FX110
Echo chainsaws and a whole bunch of tractors

DDW_OR

Quote from: DaleK on November 18, 2022, 06:43:30 PM
Build it tall so when you decide it's too small you can add a leanto on each side
this is a room INSIDE the polebarn
no leanto to build
polebarn already has one leanto on the west wall that i plan to extend 16 to 18 feet.
south, east and north i cannot add any leanto to because of the county setback rules.
wish i could, but the $$$ penalty is too great
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

i was looking online at a Drywall Panel Lift
13 feet is the most common

so, i will do 10 ft inside height.
gives me 2 to 3 feet for overhead stuff

cement floor will work great for moving stuff around

but first i have A LOT of stuff to sort for the spring yardsale
in all of the stuff in this photo are
Hoyer lift
Hospital bed
smoker
1 of 3 rolls of concrete wire
2 radial arm saws
woodmaster 725 planer
1 man inflatable pontoon frame
and at least one kitchen sink


"let the machines do the work"

Sedgehammer

I wood do the full 14' for ceiling height . Be cheaper to frame it in . I'd put metal on the ceiling . Once up it's already finished , plus if you ever wanted to wash it , you can . Can't do that with rock

With your radiant heart , you'll not lose any to the ceiling height . It'll be cooler @ the ceiling actually then the floor
Necessity is the engine of drive

DDW_OR

Sedgehammer

thank you for the full height suggestion.
still plan 10 foot height. want to store light stuff on the roof

cheaper? sawmill
metal ceiling  = no.
i have a lot of #2 plywood that i have gotten for free. most of what makes it #2 is pallet fork edge damage.
thickness = 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, 1 1/4
plan to use the 1 1/4 for bench top, then a replaceable hardboard surface. either the standard brown or maybe white

also have several wooded joists, 6 are 36 feet long
"let the machines do the work"

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