Hammering swingmill blades? cutting issues

brdmkr · May 12, 2009, 05:16:17 PM

I am having some issues with my mill. When I put a newly retipped blade on the mill, it cuts like butter. No dives, rises, fuzzy cuts, etc. It is both easy to push and pull. However, it does not take too long, generally less that 1000 bdft, before that changes. I sharpen pretty often, but it does not help. I have been cutting mostly SYP.

Sometimes the blades will have dark spots on them, suggesting that they got too hot. They will also sometime 'ring' when exiting the log. So all of this makes me think that they are losing tension. However, I can't see that happening so quickly. My cut marks over the bunks look fine, pretty much like the manual shows when I first put a new blade on the saw. I honestly have not paid attention to what they look like when they start cutting poorly. Because they look fine when fresh, I would be reluctant to adjust things anyway.

I have not really noticed on earlier blades, but I wonder if the SYP could be building up sap on the blades causing them to cut poorly. I noticed that the last blade was pretty bad with sap. When my blades come back from the doc, they have been thoroughly cleaned. Maybe a periodic cleaning with a solvent would help?

Because so many folks retip themselves instead of sending them to a saw doc, it make me wonder if tension is the problem at all. Still, I know that after a few logs, it really cuts rough. Any suggestions are much appreciated.

Wife · May 12, 2009, 05:55:17 PM

Your mention of a 'sing' when it exits the log is a clue too. When you exit that cut, SLOWLY back up to that same cut you just exitted, and see if the blade is in exactly the same spot (or it's moved to one side of the cut). Could be that your lock is giving, allowing the blade to wander a bit in the cut, dragging one way or the other, and then straining to get back on track...constant straining will cause you to lose tension prematurely.
Is your blade hot after cutting a log?

brdmkr · May 12, 2009, 10:16:37 PM

Quote from: Wife on May 12, 2009, 05:55:17 PM
Your mention of a 'sing' when it exits the log is a clue too. When you exit that cut, SLOWLY back up to that same cut you just exitted, and see if the blade is in exactly the same spot (or it's moved to one side of the cut). Could be that your lock is giving, allowing the blade to wander a bit in the cut, dragging one way or the other, and then straining to get back on track...constant straining will cause you to lose tension prematurely.
Is your blade hot after cutting a log?

That is a good idea. I have noticed that sometimes the top inside corner of the board is often 'nicked' on deep vertical cuts. Also, the horizontal cut seems deeper than needed on the start of the push than on the end (I cut vertical first as I cut alone a lot). It could be that something is pulling the saw into the log on the vertical??????????? Something to think about for sure. Maybe I need to tighten up the lock a little?

Fla._Deadheader · May 12, 2009, 10:30:06 PM

Are your track wheels tight ??? On my Peterson, if the bearings get a little sloppy, the carriage will "Rack" out of parallel with the track. It will cause the blade to cut off line on the vertical and IT will jump over on exiting the cut.

I recently had the same problem as you, and had to replace 1 carriage wheel. Cured the problem, instantly. Frame rack is what I get on the Peterson. Don't remember what the Lucas is like. Took me some time to figure it out, as I am the sawyer. Had a guy want to learn how to saw, and I watched the blade. Makes a BIG difference to see what is happening.

Down here, the trees grow on hillsides a LOT, and they release tension, causing the log to move and pinch the blade. Sometimes, I have to go-backup-go-backup, several times, to relieve the tension, before I can exit the cut. This is usually on the horizontal cut. I had slightly larger width tips put on the blades, to get a tad more clearance, to keep the blade from pinching as bad. Sometimes, the saw tries to throw a runaway, and I have to be ready to go quickly, or get run over. A log is ALIVE, and will do strange things.

Sap buildup is bad on some species here, and, I don't cut hardly ANY softwood.

Might try a little soap or Pinesol in the lube drip, to clean the sap as you saw. If the blade gets real warm, that Pine sap will stick BADD.

ErikC · May 12, 2009, 11:08:09 PM

I have had my blades hammered from time to time when they start acting up. If I see a hot spot I have it done. Re-tipping is great, but taking them in for a tune up makes a difference. It costs me the same as if he just re-does the tips to have the tension adjusted.

brdmkr · May 12, 2009, 11:11:23 PM

Well, FDH you have given me something to think about as well. I know I have one of my track wheels that is a little on the loose side. Maybe I just need to tighten everything up?? My issues also seem worse in the horizontal cut, but that may be more because it just seems easier to pull than to push. Also, when I am cutting horizontal, I am releasing the board; whereas when I cut the vertical, the bottom is still attached. The big trouble is when cutting horizontal using a full cut.

Fla._Deadheader · May 12, 2009, 11:26:59 PM

Stuff I cut is HARD. I can't even imagine a 10" blade, full cut, in the logs I get to work on.

Are your wheels plastic of some sort ??? Mine are, and the bearings get loose in the wheel. They are sealed bearings. That is why they get sloppy. A little goes a long ways to let the blade start to lead, then you push-pull harder, and it leads some more.

C'mon down and saw some REAL logs, anytime. ;) ;D ;D :D :D

I really believe this will help you if the wheel(s) are just a little sloppy.

brdmkr · May 12, 2009, 11:30:43 PM

They are a little bit sloppy. Really, one of them is VERY sloppy. Does the loose wheel cause the blade to lose tension? I assume that the used blades will need to be hammered?

scsmith42 · May 13, 2009, 12:39:12 AM

If you mix some Pine-sol into your lube water it will minimize the sap buildup on the blade.

Fla._Deadheader · May 13, 2009, 08:36:57 AM

I had a blade get VERY warm. As you stated earlier, it had some black spots on it, like it may have blistered.

When I change blades, I can't see any difference in any of them. (I have 6) :

:

I think clean running blades and fix the wobbles, will get you back in shape.

Meadows Miller · May 13, 2009, 09:23:51 AM

Gday

Brdmkr with the Zing you hear as the saw exits the log it genraly comes from one or a combation of of three main things Mate ;)

Saw either out off tension or teeth ground with a slight lead to them
also when you retip a saw you take tension out off the saw when you heat it up to bronze the teeth to the plate ;) (howmany times have the saws been done ??? ) also with sharpening os swing blades as you have only 5-6 teeht to the saw it only takes a couple to be out to see reduced saw prefomance

Carriage Lock as Kerris said the carriage locks wear with time and let the head play from side to side ;) A saw will pull to the point off least resitance ;)
With the Lucas's ive found that out on the first one i used which was the second one built and had done a power off work w/o much maint when i got on it i use to have to use a thin wedge id cut and put it in the gap to get the carriage to lock properly ;) and id carry another 5 or 6 in my back pocket ;) :D

:

Lucky i talked the boss into odering the parts to bring it back upto scratch ;) ;D 8)

Carriage wheels i usually replaced them every 1000 hrs roughly or when they realy need it done as they are a sealed bearing and as Fdh has said ;) ;D they usually letgo around the bearing in the plasic before any huge wear shows on the wheels ;)

With the hot spots on the saw plate once you have them in a small saw plate the saw never realy cuts like it should again and it takes alot off trial and error to bring it back ;)

And with the wide horizontal cuts i try to do every cut upto about 5 or 6" in one pass depending on the log and how the saws coping but anything wider and more than 2" thick i have used a wedge of wood that i keep in my back pocket also as when i started on swingers i use to saw alot off 6x6" and 8x8's on my own ;) I dont have to about space these days tho as it use to get alitte crowded when i had the carriage lock ones inthere also ;) :D :D :D

With Lube in pine i just use a good squirt of dish wasing liquid in every second tank and on real sappy ones ill run at about 2/3s to a tank on a 24" x 12' log that dose the trick for me and keeps a nice film a the saw ;)

Good luck Mate it shouldnt take too much to get it tuned up rite ;) ;D 8) 8)

Reguards Chris

ErikC · May 13, 2009, 10:55:27 AM

Quote from: brdmkr on May 12, 2009, 05:16:17 PM
I am having some issues with my mill. When I put a newly retipped blade on the mill, it cuts like butter. No dives, rises, fuzzy cuts, etc. It is both easy to push and pull. However, it does not take too long, generally less that 1000 bdft, before that changes. I sharpen pretty often, but it does not help. I have been cutting mostly SYP.

Sometimes the blades will have dark spots on them, suggesting that they got too hot. They will also sometime 'ring' when exiting the log.

After re-reading the first half of your post, I would bet you are sharpening the blades a little incorrectly, probably a slight lead. I notice this in my sharpening if I'm not careful, and would check that out. If your mill was that sloppy a new blade would not cut great, and then worse and and worse as you sharpen it.

hogs4hobby · May 21, 2009, 03:04:11 PM

i have been sawing with a lucas mill since 2002 & just upgrade to a 1030 a few weeks ago.
I had the same problem with my 618 blades for a while, when i would get them back from saw doctor from being hammered & retipped they would cut like brand new blades for awhile. some would start acting up after the first sharpening, others would would work fine for 2 - 3 sharpens. leave fuss & feathers on the luber, horisontal & vertical cuts would not match up 100%. i found that my major problem was the retippin, after you have the blades retipped several times you will start to loose some blade metal where the tips seat ,thus making the blade dia. decrease quick with sharpenings.
never had any problem with sap build up & saw alot of syp but run a heavy mixture of pinesole in my water tank that cuts the pine tar.

on my 1030 blades are alot bigger dia. & it does not takenear as much to have blade problems. I have to keep a good flow of water on blade at all times or it will heat up & cut ruff , odd size lumber. thus i run a heavy mixture of dawn dish detergent & pinesole to keep it good & slick.

i saw alot of power poles also & the soap really makes a huge differance in blade life.

Chico · May 21, 2009, 08:15:16 PM

Body of the saw shouldn't change with carbide tips side clearance could vary but the tips protect the saw body I agree that maybe you're getting off a little with your sharpening and the slack could magnify the prob once it begins
Chico

ErikC · May 21, 2009, 08:34:11 PM

When the tips get replaced, a small amount of hand filing to the plate is needed to clean up the shape and remove oxidized material. It is just enough to get things shiny again, but can add up over time, (or if a saw shop got a little heavy handed) and it will slightly decrease overall diameter.

james · May 21, 2009, 09:01:14 PM

try joining your blades , with them on the mill clamp a felt tip pen so it just touches one of the teeth and spin the blade in reverse by hand, if the teeth are all the same distance and angle from the center the mark will be exactly the same on each
tooth
james

Chico · May 22, 2009, 03:31:33 AM

I'm not trying to say a very minute amt may be lost but all I ever did was use heat to clean the silver solder off of them use emery cloth to remove carbon then replace the bit if the jig is right it is a Very minute amt of mat, lost it should take years to lose enough to be a factor unless the saws are being butchered. Now if you don't heat it enough and leave too much tramp metal from the prior bit you can run into probs also. My main concern was always making sure The side clearance ws right and the jig was properly placed on the saw I ran saws for up to 10 yrs and more in high prod mills without enough loss to see enough wear to take any actions The main thing is don't over sharpen the bits if you sharpen on mill don't side clearance unless you side clearance all of them on both sides this is really import with the low tooth count you have on these mills. The main thing I've seen with carbide/stellite is the bit is not put in correctly (either the jig is out or some other factor) , The bit is the wrong size or instead of going ahead and changing the bits they run them at a min side/Top clear ( everyone wants their moneys worth).An easy way to tell is when you sawing and stop look at the araea behind the bit if theres not a little dark area(caused by clearance ) then you may a prob with plate wear JMO
Chico

brdmkr · May 22, 2009, 10:26:49 PM

I have replaced two carriage wheels (one was original to the mill and was pretty sloppy). I have a new blade on the mill now that has not been sharpened. I will pay close attention to how the sharpener fits this blade. I looked at some of the blades that were cutting poorly and they did appear to have ever so slight of an angle on them. I am not sure if this was real or if I was just imagining it. I will have to mount one and try the idea James suggested. Hopefully, I will get everything right as this is really frustrating. I suppose it is what I deserve as I have run the saw pretty hard without checking adjustments in some time. It will likely be Monday before I can get the blades in logs to see if the problem has been fixed.

hogs4hobby · May 25, 2009, 02:41:23 PM

when i was going thru simuilar problems I all so replace all 4 carrige wheels on my lucas, double check all of the blade adjustments. made sure that my tracks was set up correct not out of parralle.

my problem turned out to be the saw doctor taking a small amount of metal from the blade when retipping. these blades had been retipp several times but not enough to have lost that much metal I thought, but they must have been focus on production instead of quality.
as far as sharpening goes a have sharpen a blade or two incorrectly an caused it to cut improperly but never enough to make the cuts not match up or blade walk to the piont of odd shaped lumber. i generally know pretty quick if i have sharpen inncorrectly & stop to correct it.