Why not make a circular sawmill?

DanG · May 22, 2007, 11:31:59 PM

Worms is good. In your garden, they aerate and fertilize the soil. On The Forum, they teach us about things that are different from what we are used to. A can of worms, every now and then, keeps us from becoming stale and narrow-minded, because it always stimulate's discussion.

Sprucegum · May 23, 2007, 01:06:46 AM

And this can o'worms is easily opened at any time, I was surprised at the emotions/nostalgia stirred up when I was asking around the country about old mills. The mill may have been rusting in the bushes for 20 years but No...its Not for sale. Then they get that misty look in their eye and comment

"Uncle ran that mill" or "Brother started off-bearing when he was 12" or "I'd have to ask all 7 brothers first"

One guy tried to donate his mill to the museum. The old Folks Committee couldn't agree on who would be in charge of it so he took it home again :-\ :D

sawguyver · May 23, 2007, 02:15:28 AM

I run an old "American" and enjoy every minute. Its an older setup with wooden carrige and wooden track. It requires alot of tinkering and attention and thats the best part. For years I intended on building a band mill and maybe I still will but I don't think it will replace my circle mill. From my point they are to different sensations, sort of like the difference between a sailing dingy and a sailing a 40 footer. Both are exciting each with a totally differant set of concerns.
Completely different experiences.

I wish everbody could have the good fortune of seeing what a circle mill can do.

oh and here are some more wooden rollers

Sprucegum · May 23, 2007, 12:28:24 PM

Whats that mark on the toe of your headset?

sawguyver · May 23, 2007, 03:13:11 PM

do you mean that saw kerf ;D

firecord · May 23, 2007, 04:42:50 PM

Here is something I dug up on circle saws when I was deciding between, build band or circle.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf

Frickman · May 27, 2007, 05:47:47 PM

Looks like I've been missing a good thread. Years ago I sold some 4 x 6 cants to a pallet shop. The next day they were on the phone, telling me they were having problems with the lumber, and I'd better get over there real quick. I went over, and they were griping that their resaw wouldn't cut my lumber. The problem was the finish was so smooth that they had trouble with it sliding on the stationary infeed table. There was so much wood fiber in contact with the table that the wood, being fresh-sawn, would actually stick. After a quick trip to the hardware store and a can of paste wax the resaw was up and running again. This lumber was sawn on a Frick circle mill, circa 1961. This particular shop bought everything I could produce for ten years until the retired. They always bought my lumber, even if they had to shut off other suppliers.

Yesterday was sawed poplar and oak barn lumber, alot of 16 and 20 foot stuff. Our mill cuts so accurately that you have to work hard to screw up lumber. We're sawing again tommorow and the next day the same thing, custom sawn barn lumber. I'm not going to say a band mill or a circle mill is better, just don't put one or the other down. If a circle mill is so bad, then why am I growing my business in a down lumber market?

Like some above posts stated, quality has alot to do with the operator, not just with the type of mill.

Nate Surveyor · May 28, 2007, 09:17:37 AM

Mr. Frickman!

I stand corrected!

And, thanks! I envision a circle mill to open logs with, and a band mill to resaw. Now that I have some testimony that accuracy is DO-ABLE on the circle mill, well I guess I will be re-thinking my equasion. 8)

N

two saw · May 28, 2007, 12:09:42 PM

I've not had much experience with either mill. The D&L I have is the only mill I have ever owned/run. I have watched band mills and big circle mills run and can see benefits of both.
Like others have said I think it is about your business/personal goals which would be the better mill for you.

Buzz-sawyer · May 28, 2007, 02:55:36 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on May 20, 2007, 06:56:40 AM
I see there are quite a few people who don't know much about circular mills.

AH yes we agree Mr W. ;)

My very first post on this forumwas about the circle mill that I built and still run......it is inexpensive to run
dead on accurate,
easy to replace teeth ,
cheap to work on ,
quick to sharpen,
and with helpers can cut close to 10,000bdft a day.....and I built it for under 2 grand.....but I like bandsawz to...they are cute toys 8) 8) ;)

rpg52 · May 30, 2007, 08:45:17 PM

One of the reasons I decided to build a circular saw was because I plan to mulch my 25 acres of forest land with a foot of sawdust. Previous occupants caused a lot of erosion and disturbance and I figure sawdust is likely the best treatment I could give it. Not looking foreward to spreading it, but already have a 1 ton truck with a dump box on the back to move it around.

Like Arkansas said, "Now with all that said, this is one opinion, circle mill equals higher cost of start up, higher labor cost but in turn produces higher production, by far. Band mill lower cost for start up, lower cost for labor, and in turn lower production." Seems to sum it up accurately.
Ray

Ron Wenrich · May 31, 2007, 06:00:43 AM

Actually, it doesn't sum it up very well. If you buy used, you can buy a circle mill fairly cheaply, especially when you consider production capacity. A small, handset circle mill will produce several Mbf per day with only 2 or 3 people working it. I used to do 5 Mbf/day on a circle handsert mill with a total of 3 workers.

When you get to automatics, you double your production. Used costs are similar or cheaper than a new bandmill. Currently, I'm getting anywhere from 1.4-2.1 Mbf/hr cutting hardwoods, with a total of 5 men. I could do it with 4. So, my actual labor costs are lower than a bandmill. You have to figure things in the $/Mbf range, not the $/hr.

My sawing costs are a lot lower than a small bandmill. Sure, you get more sawdust, but you saw a lot more logs. ;)

Sawdust won't do much for your erosion problems. That'll just wash off with the next rain. You need something to keep the soil from moving.

rpg52 · June 01, 2007, 12:08:14 PM

Yeah Ron, to be more specific - my problem isn't really current erosion, it was erosion that occurred ~120 years ago. I'm in the gold mining region of the Sierra Nevada. The mining activities turned an area with limited soil depth (maybe 1.5') to one with 0.5'. Any standing timber was cut too, but it's the soil loss that prevents it from coming back much. Subseqently it was colonized by Scotch Broom, which seems to prevent the return of conifers. I'm trying to heavily mulch it to discourage the Broom and enable the conifers to survive the summer drought. Don't know how effective it will be, but it seems worth a try. If I can get the conifers to overtop the Broom, it seems to depress it and prevent it from monopolizing all the ground.

Regarding circle vs bandsaw, I don't disagree with you. For hobby type milling, even at the discount of costs, the mill I'm building will cost about the same as a bandsaw. I'm sure the production will be higher, but I likely will never achieve it because of site constraints. I'm not sure yet about the accuracy of this comment, but I was told that the operating costs of a circle mill were lower (mainly because of blade costs), so that the kerf issue was irrelevant to the cost of the lumber. In other words, the narrower kerf of a bandsaw was equivalent when considering the lower cost of circle saw teeth. More sawdust, but reduced maintenance costs, almost a wash. Since I want the sawdust, it seemed like a logical choice. Your mileage may vary, etc. Had I bought a complete mill from a neighbor, it seems like the cost would have been considerably less. Most of them disappeared from this area ~50 years ago though, unlike some parts of the country, so my choice seemed to be build a circle mill or buy a bandsaw. If I had it to do over again, I might have made another choice. :-\
Ray

oakiemac · June 01, 2007, 10:20:05 PM

To answer the original question, I say make one! If you do it right you will have a good, safe, accurate mill.

I'm not going to get into the band vs circular argument except to say that last fall I got way behind in my sawing and I hired a local guy with a bandmill to come in and saw up 2mbf of tulip poplar for barn siding. I was too busy to pay much attention to the lumber and I figured he would have no problems with the soft Poplar. Well after he left I got looking at my stack of 1X8's and couldn't believe it. Some of the boards are 5/4 on the ends, 6/4 in middle and who nows what else. The edges were so wavy I had to run most of the stuff through a gang rip saw just to get parallel sides. Alot of it was absolute junk.
I think I could take all the teeth out of my saw and still cut better lumber then this guy did.

DanG · June 01, 2007, 10:55:47 PM

Like I've said a dozen times, bandsaws will cut some beautiful lumber, but you gotta do your homework. If a "sawyer" doesn't take the time to learn his trade, he won't make good lumber. This will tell on a bandsaw man a lot quicker. If the circle saw guy screws up, it won't be evident until the lumber is well into the drying process. The bandsaw guy still has that problem, but he also has the chance to cut waves, and thick/thin stuff that the circle guy doen't have to worry about.

inspectorwoody · June 03, 2007, 08:12:40 PM

I like band and circle but if I had to choose.....It would be the ol' handset circle mill ;D This is what I grew up on and probably the biggest reason why I chose to start a career in the industry. Nothing is better smelling than sawdust and diesel in the morning :D I miss it a great deal. The only smell I get anymore is from R.Oak.

My company still has a circle at the WI mill. There closer in our daily production at the main mill than I thought they would be. For the most part, whatever you throw at a circle, it can handle it.

Dan_Shade · June 03, 2007, 08:47:05 PM

why won't a circle saw cut thick on the ends or in the middle boards?

cant stress is cant stress, the log don't care what's cutting it...

Corley5 · June 03, 2007, 10:16:57 PM

Quote from: Dan_Shade on June 03, 2007, 08:47:05 PM
why won't a circle saw cut thick on the ends or in the middle boards?

They will ;D ;D

thurlow · June 03, 2007, 10:30:53 PM

Quote from: Dan_Shade on June 03, 2007, 08:47:05 PM
why won't a circle saw cut thick on the ends or in the middle boards?

Well.........................if the lead is wrong, it'll definitely cut thick on one end; can't really say I've ever had trouble with thick or thin in the middle. Maybe I'll think further on it.

Jeff · June 03, 2007, 10:38:33 PM

Quote from: Dan_Shade on June 03, 2007, 08:47:05 PM
why won't a circle saw cut thick on the ends or in the middle boards?

cant stress is cant stress, the log don't care what's cutting it...

They sure will. You can cut all sorts of oddities. :D Especially shows up in your dog boards if you have stress.

Buzz-sawyer · June 06, 2007, 07:14:56 PM

Ditto the dog board comment....If I get a beatiful last board I count myself blessed...they tend to show me the logs troubles.

bowman316 · May 16, 2013, 04:57:35 PM

how does the log not bind in a circular sawmill? I tried to trim down a beam that I cut down with a chainsaw. After trimming the two sides off, I took it down to my table saw, and could not feed that thing thru there with out the blade binding and stalling.
maybe i needed to plane the bottom edge to perfectly square, so it would not wanna curve

Ianab · May 16, 2013, 05:31:53 PM

You can get binding on a circle saw, but 100 odd horsepower takes a lot of stopping ....

Doesn't mean it wont cause issues of course. Blade gets hot instead of stalling and then things don't work properly any more.

It's possible to bind up a small circle mill (Swingblade) in a badly tensioned log. If you are expecting to happen you can slow down, and even back out of a tight spot and take another run at it. But what you are really doing is taking a thicker kerf in the cut, and that leads to slightly uneven boards.

But this is due to tension in the log making it bend as you cut part of it away

In your table saw scenario you have the problem of the "log" not being dead straight, or supported properly. This means it can also change angle in relation to the blade as you feed it. On a sawmill this shouldn't happen. The log is solidly clamped to the carriage and moving in alignment with the blade. Even if the log is crooked, the feed is still lined up.

With the small circle mills, the log is stationary, and the blade is moving. But the blade stays aligned with the cut at all times.

The table saw analogy would be a "sled" that you clamp the work piece too, and this runs in the slots on the table. Now the board stays aligned with the blade, and binding is much less likely.

Ian

jimparamedic · May 18, 2013, 10:46:22 AM

Which saw is best that is up to the person who owns it. Everything has its place. My thing is a circular sawmill should make chips not dust and to do this it is the number of teeth in the saw. More teeth more power is needed. I have not run a band mill but I was told the same goes for them to. I choose a circular mill do to blade cost for me. When i bought my mill it cam with a 50" blade and a box of teeth. My first box i bought cost 37.50. About 2 yrs ago my second box cost 125.00. Now i must add that i have had this mill close to 15 years. So to this day i have less than 200.00 in my blade costs. Some day I hope to have a band mill to resaw with but until then I'll make do with what I have.