how much of my junk trees should I clear

[James P.]

Hello, I have about 6 acres of woods and 2 1/2 clear. My woods are a mixed bag of small trees 4 6 inches in diameter and larger maples, oaks ,gums and beech . the trees are not in good shape do to ice storms back in the mid 90's. my question is should I cut everything that has no potential of growing healthy .I know I won't see any harvest in my lifetime but I would like to have a healthy woods . Is there any books like forestry for the complete idiot out there. If I cut down a lot of larger trees will this promote new growth of different native species or will I need to plant what I want. thanks for any info. James P

[tonich]

Planting "what you want" would not be the best approach, when it comes to sustainability and costs. I would create favorable conditions for natural regeneration of your main/desired existing species (unless I want to grow pines).
The local forestry department should have a better clue, to which of them could be given an advantage, regarding the particular site.

[James P.]

thanks will contact state forestry. I want to grow what was once there besides the leftovers from previous cutting back in the 80's I would say. I would rather not spend money on trees. I would like to promote natural revitalization, If I cut down the larger trash trees will this help. It seems like alot of gums and beech and a few poplars and oaks are the main new growth. Once was some white pines . Just seems way to many sweet gums and they are the seedlings off some larger trash trees still standing. also some black gum. there are oaks and acorns just not many smaller trees coming up. How do I promote there growth. I am right next to a large old woods full of large oaks, beech and maples. thanks

[tonich]

there are oaks and acorns just not many smaller trees coming up. How do I promote there growth. I am right next to a large old woods full of large oaks, beech and maples. thanks

To support oak young growth (assuming one of the main goals in your case) it is essential to create some openings, removing the junk black gum (I think) and any other competitive weeds. Oaks are pioneer species and would easily establish in open areas. Note, that you have to keep an eye on the any other competitors within the first ~10 years.
Than again, these are only small tips, a professional on spot assistant is recommended.

[James P.]

thanks tonich, that is basically what I needed to know. i will clear the bad trees and stay on top of regrowth of unwanted species. While hoping the oaks can get a foot hold if need be I will plant seedlings. I don't like the look of a woods with lots of open spots but it is what needs to happen for good future growth.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, it is best to have your local Conservation District Forester, DNR Service forester, or a local professional consulting forester look at your stand to provide you with the best advice to meet your objectives within your forest's ecosystem. Select the crop trees (best trees) to meet your objectives for timber, wildlife, aesthetics, etc. Remove the worst first.

[James P.]

hello and thanks for the advice. I contacted my state forester and discussed with him what I wanted. His recommendation was I need a permit to clear more than an acre for starters. Well no biggie. Its free and he will issue it when I go down and see him. He said if I wanted oaks, cut down everything else beside the oaks, then let the oaks reseed itself if I want pine which I have very few of, cut down everything. pay 100 an acre to have sprayed and 60 an acre for replanting lob
loblolly pines. He said at the moment there is a better market in our area for the pines. I am not really interested in reaping from this cause I won't be around. what is your opinion on hardwoods or pine . I am in what is considered lowland but it has produced a harvest in the past. since tax ditches were put in I imagine the land will produce better trees than before. He does seem to think that pines and oaks would be a good idea. please chime in

[fishpharmer]

You asked for opinions, here goes.  I am no forester.  And understand that I come
from the perspective of a southerner that has seen most
every clearcut block of woods, hardwood or pine replanted in loblolly pine my whole life.  Thats fine.  I like pines,  planted some myself.  I may plant some more.  I guess this is just
me but I like oaks a little better from an aesthetic and deer hunters point
of veiw. If you have some good size oaks you can "release" thats the way I would go.  Since you like deer hunting I think you will attract more deer with oaks.     Most all wildlife likes acorns.  Around my part of the world oaks seem to be getting scarce.  I am sure thats not true everywhere.  Although you are making a long term plan you might consider comparing the growth rates
for your area.  Seems like a carefully managed stand of
veneer grade oaks could demand more value long
term than a faster growing pine.  Or you might want to combine a little of
both.  Plant pine between your house and the road and neighbors for privacy.  Let the rest remain in oaks.  Best of both.  And interface of oak, pine and open field would truly be a deer magnet IMO.
You asked ;)

[James P.]

Fishpharmer stick to fish, lol No I think your right. the forester is pushing the pine but I like oak myself too. Plus yes I like the deer and yesterday morning had a 1/2 dozen turkeys scratching right behind my mill. Lucky I wasn't hungry. I asked about the mixing of pine and oak but he said it doesn't do well. funny though a lot of the older stand around my place have a good mix of hardwoods and pines . I also don't think I can afford the spraying and manual planting. the oak might me more labor intensive keeping invasive trees out but I have the time .I will talk to him tomorrow I hope and discuss further my options. thanks

[SwampDonkey]

A brush saw is expensive, but on a small acreage is effect in steering the direction your new forest takes by removing the less desired ones and spacing the best of your preferred tree species. Done as a pre-commercial thinning in openings you create or in clear cuts. Generally, the species growing on-site as regeneration are what was present under the parent trees unless it's a tree species with windblown seed that travels long distance or has a fleshy fruit animals and birds carried in their belly. If you have a lot of maple or beech regrowth it will likely over take the oaks since maple and beech are tolerant to shade conditions, oak not so good at living in shade. Hardwood should be around 18-30 feet before spacing with a brush saw and the limbs should have been self pruned so you can see under the canopy when you walk in from the edge. On some sites it's almost dark in under maple and beech. ;D

[thecfarm]

I would leave some oak and try to leave some pine too as a shelter for the wild life.Have a mixture of trees.Let the pine just grow,in a few areas, so maybe the deer will stay in it.I have a few places a men would have a hard time walking through.Most animals like acorns.Swampdonkey is right,a brush saw is expensive,but it should last you for years,like a chain saw would.I would buy one,if I was doing want you want to do.Don't forget to leave some trees for the woodpeckers.They need to eat too.I keep talking about taking about 5 acres of mine and cutting all of the junk stuff out of there too.Be a good way to get firewood.With my math you should buy a nice bush saw,almost $1000,that you have been quoted on spraying and planting.It's hard to guess what will be selling for trees 20-30 years down the road.This will take ALOT of time and effort on your part to do all this.Meaning ALOT of work.But I would think it's worth all of it.You will see the results for years to come.I think the first 5 years would take the most time.Than as the canopy starts to close in,the under brush should slow down growing.

[WDH]

I suggest that you work with the trees that are naturally on the site since you have such a small area.  Choose the crop trees that you want to leave, and take out the rest.  You can use hack-and-squirt where you use a hatchet or machete to hack into the bark every couple of inches around the tree and squirt in herbicide.  The herbicide impacts the cambium just under the living bark, so you do not need to hack very deep.  A Formula 409 bottle is perfect for squirting the herbicide since it has that little pull handle.  If you saw them down, and they are hardwood trees, they will re-sprout from the stump.  That is better than nothing, but herbicide shuts the door on the undesirables permanently.

[James P.]

thanks for every ones input, I did talk to a forester today and filled out paperwork for my permit. I told them my budget wasn't there for a helicopter spray job . my forester was out on duty playing Smoky the Bear literally so I think he will be out to my place in a day or 2. The forester I talk to said that since it wasn't alot of acreage I could get herbicides that don't requires a permit to spray and basically cut down what I want . They do have a law that if you have 25% of poplar or pine it must be replanted with those species. If I give it all up to pine I couldn't go back and change it. I am going with the oaks and pines and maples if they don't try and take over and few poplars. I like the mix. I will do what ever I have to physical to see they get going. hopefully mother nature will be on my side and a lot of luck. atleast when it comes to the reseeding. thanks, If it wasn't for the forum I wouldn't be taking this step . I would probably wait a few more years thinking I have what I have. with no clearing or actual tree farming taking place.

[SwampDonkey]

Hardwood will sucker when cut, but proper timing of the treatment and tree spacing will do those suckers in or inhibit them from doing much and usually they die off in a few years. The problem is thinning too early and spacing too wide.

[Flatheadyoungin]

good thread....

i would really like to do some clearing too.....i love to walk in woods that are clear of young trees and briars....just a leafy forest floor, tall trunks and thick canopy......mainly oaks........

i thought about clearing some areas but didn't want to cut down any of my small oak saplings........i'm not sure what to do......maybe i need to call my extension agency??  is that where the forester is called out of?

[James P.]

Hey flathead ,I just looked in the phone book Government Pages went to Forest Service alphabetical and called . very easy , have one in each county in Delaware.maybe the same for you. its free advice so go for it. Good luck.

[beenthere]

flatheadyoungin
Where are you located?

Possibly the Flathead region in Montana?

Welcome to the forum.

[Flatheadyoungin]

Southern ohio.....i'll double check my profile.......probably should do an intro, too...

[Restoman]

I will admit I have not read this book, but it is on my Amazon wish list. 

The Woodlot Management Handbook: Making the Most of Your Wooded Property For Conservation, Income or Both


link

http://www.amazon.com/Woodlot-Management-Handbook-Property-Conservation/dp/155407553X/ref=wl_itt_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I221GK4U7B6AWK&colid=X4I4KNS4LVU2

[James P.]

thanks again , this site really does the mind good. I will have to put a couple of those books on my wish list too. Actually need to get my books out of the milk crates and build a bookshelf. from metal casting to self help and everything in between. some tree books but nothing on management . identifying, growing and choosing for sawing.  With this coastal storm I don't think I will see the forester til next week. I am chomping at the bit to get out there and cut down what is only good for firewood. Will be neat to see only the oaks standing.
I don't have a chipper , what besides burning , which I usually do . Is another alternative for tops less anything for firewood. thanks again for sharing your knowledge, your humble tree butcher. James P.

[Ron Scott]

The Woodlot Management Handbook  mentioned above is recommended reading.  Woodland Stewardship, A Practical Guide For Midwestern Landowners is also worth reading.

[thecfarm]

If you take your fire wood down to 2 inches and cut up want is left so the branches does not hold it up off the ground,it will break down pretty quick,3-4 years.I saw any branches up quite a few times to get them to lay on the ground.Like I may cut down a small fir tree.I saw off all the limbs off from it so the bare trunk will lay on the ground and rot quicker.Wild life like brush piles too,by the way.

[SwampDonkey]

I've been in 10 year old pre-commercial thinning sites and the brush and stumps are all gone. Looks like a mess when it's first cut, but it soon disappears.

[Ron Wenrich]

One of the problems with your area of Delaware is the soil.  I believe you're on a lot of sand in that area.  The quality of tree you can grow gets to be limited.  You may be able to grow hardwoods, but the quality is lacking.  That's one of the reasons they did those stand conversions on Rt 113. 

But, you can surely grow hardwoods, if that's your intent.  Most likely, all the native pines have been stripped out of the woods a long time ago.  What was left over were the hardwoods.  People stopped burning firewood and some of the farmland was allowed to revert back to woods.  Hardwoods became more dominant. 

As for tops, cut the firewood off that you want and cut the tops so that you can see over them.  Contracts in my area usually say to leave them no higher than 4'.  Cut the limbs so they lay closer to the forest floor.  They'll be mostly gone in a couple of years.  It is beneficial to adding nutrients to your soil, and it will also help protect young seedlings from being eaten by deer. 

Forestry laws are a way for non-professionals telling professionals how to do their business.  Guidelines are one thing, laws are something else.

[dtody]

After reading this, I've got a lot of work for the fall and winter.  I have split cedars, at least 50/70 on my 40 acres, and was thinking about dragging them to my east side road where I could eventually chip them.  some were there when I bought the land 10 years ago and do not appear to be diminishing,  neither do the brush piles.  I was also considering burning the brush piles this winter, any positives or negatives?

Thanks

[thecfarm]

My Father and I cleaned up about 100X500 foot section of woods.This was a field years ago.We left many trees and piled up the brush.I built a house right across from this area.I mow it with a push lawn mower to keep the brush out of it now.Looks just like a park now.I got tired of looking at the brush piles in there.Probaly was about 15 years.Brush piles was maybe 5 feet tall.Took the tractor and tried to do something to the piles with the loader and I could just about drive over them as the piles were all rotted and were probably less than 2 feet tall by the time I got done with them.I hauled of the piles and made the place look alot better.There was no way that I could burn them being trees was just about touching the piles.
By the way,if you are thinking about burning the piles,any way the wind blows the flames it will cook,burn any nearby trees.Depends on how big the flames get,but I would guess any tree 40 feet away will get cooked.Have to think about the limbs,crown too.If the piles are mostly cedar I guess they would burn.But other wood I would think you would have a hard time burning them due to being too rotted inside the pile.The outside would burn,but doubt inside they would.

[fishpharmer]

How is the clearing of junk trees coming along?

[James P.]

I could use a hand fishpharmer, thanks for the offer. Should I call you when I am near finished.  ;)4+ inches of rain yesterday made for a soggy woods but I just put on some rubber boots. Finding lots of baby loblolly pines . They must have been there all along just kept dying cause the lack of sun. Don't think i will have a problem getting a healthier woods going. anything beats black gum , and sweet gum. IMO

[WDH]

Don't think i will have a problem getting a healthier woods going. anything beats black gum , and sweet gum. IMO

Now that is a true statement!