virginia pine

[MDLogging]

Is pulpwood the only market for virginia pine around maryland or anywhere?  I used to always mix it a few in with loblolly to send to the mill but they' ve completely put a stop to that now.  I'm talking about 30 to 40 ft long completely straight with a 12" top.  Some of the prettiest va pine i've cut in a long while.   Just wondering?

[MDLogging]

Heres some that are over 19".  I have to send those to another chip mill that can handle em

[MDLogging]

Just a minute im still trying to upload a photo

[beenthere]

Here is a helpful tutorial put together by a very studious member, to pass on to you.

Here are some instructions for uploading and posting pics.

It looks like a lot, but really isn't, you only need to make an album one time. After that it's up to you if you want to make more albums and keep your pics sorted.

If you have any trouble along the way, feel free to drop me a message with what your problem is and I'll find a way to help you. The instructions are general instructions and things may be a bit different because of the software you are using.
You may also be able to skip ahead a little if you are good with computers, I typed this up to cover a broad base of users.

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To create a gallery/album:

Click the "gallery" button at the top of the page or above the sponsors list on the left side of the page.
That will take you to the gallery home page.

Under the caption "Forestry Forum Gallery", click "upload file".

You will see an error message, click the "create/order my albums" button in that message.

Now find the "new album" button and click it.

Type in a name for your album and click "ok".

You now have a gallery with an album in it, you can add more albums if you like.

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Uploading pics:

Once you have an album, you can upload pics by clicking the "upload file" button in your gallery.

You'll need to pick an album that you want your pics to go into. Then just below that click the "browse" button.
That will allow you to locate the pics on your computer.
Once you have located the pic on your computer that you want to upload, you'll need to click it and then click "open".
The pic will upload automatically and you can either upload more pics or click the "continue" button.

After you click the "continue" button, you'll be in your album and you can add a title for your pics and a discription if you'd like.


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Posting pics:

When making a post, under the post box you should see "Click here to add Photos to post" click that and a new window will open with the upload page. You can either upload a pic as posted above or locate a pic in your gallery to post by clicking on "My Gallery" along the top.

That will show all your albums and you can find the pic you want to post from there.
When you find the pic you want to post, click it and it will open a bit bigger.
You should see an information box under the pic.

Look for the "Insert image in post" button and click it. The code for the image will be inserted into your post.

Go back to your post and click the "preview" button and you should see what your post will look like.
You can add more pics following the same steps.

When you have the post the way you want, make sure to click the "post" button.

Thanks Furby

[lumberjack48]

I would thing these would make cabin logs.

[WDH]

Virginia pine does not have the strength of other Southern pines, and cannot be mixed with loblolly, shortleaf, slash, or longleaf pine for framing lumber.  It has to have a special grade.

[Okrafarmer]

 

I didn't think Virginia pine got that big! Supposedly we have it here, but we have the shortleaf pine, and our local pine mill prizes shortleaf pine over loblolly, its primary local competitor. Nobody seems to ever talk about virginia pine here, but I thought from looking in the books that VP was a scrubbier, crookeder poor relation to shortleaf. Guess I'm learning something... How can you tell the two apart? They both have short needles.

[SwampDonkey]

What I saw of Virginia pine reminded me of jack pine up here. I don't know it's strengths as framing material , but I do know that plantation jack pine is not as nice at wild jack pine that regenerates naturally and thick. The plantation stuff is limby and crooked as a rams horn. The pulp companies have planted a lot in southern New Brunswick. I've seen old burns up north in natural stands and someone had a brain fart and planted black spruce on it. You couldn't find the spruce for all the released pine seedlings, thousands per square yard. :D

[WDH]

Okra (just for the record),

Virginia pine has needle bundles (fasicles) in two's.  The needles are strongly twisted.  Shortleaf has fasicles of two's and three's and the needles are only weakly twisted, if at all.  Virginia pine bark is noticeably scaly, shortleaf is not.  Shortleaf pine bark has little dimples called pitch pockets.  Looks like circles about the size of the end of a ball point pen.  No other pine has these.  The cones are also different.  The interior of the umbo (cone scale where the seed sits) of virginia pine is purple, and there is a significant contrast with the tip.  On, shortleaf the inner side of the umbo is dull brown and is the same color as tip of the cone scale.

[Okrafarmer]

That's what I was thinking, SD. I did not think I would ever have any trouble mistaking Virginia Pine for a sawlog tree, but what do I know? The shortleaf pines make real good lumber.

[WDH]

Old growth virginia pine can have clear logs, but they do have to be old.  The bark is so scaly that you can spot them from a long ways off.

[Okrafarmer]

Well the pines we have here have scaly bark, but are not twisted needles. I have never seen the pitch pockets. I am familiar with pitch pockets on balsam fir, which is one of the default trees in the area I grew up in. I will have to check on the needles numbers. But if what we have here is Virginia pine, then that would contrast strongly with the original post regarding its use for lumber. These are nice straight strong pines whose profile often resembles a palm-- long tall trunk with a round bunch of branches on top. And we have loblollies, too. Their needles are longer.

[WDH]

When I say scaly, I mean real scaly.  Cherry bark scaly.  There is an orangish color between the scales.

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=113

[Okrafarmer]

That looks like the ones we have. So I was wrong about the species. They take them for saw logs here.

[SwampDonkey]

Quite similar to jack. The forest grown jacks as I said are quite often sawlog quality and I have never seen plantation jack look like much, too limby. Only one company here buys jack pine logs and that's Irving down at Chipman and Sussex areas. They've got it planted all over the country.

Mother and I planted some down by the creek at grandmother's about 23 years ago and they are beginning to prune up and are a lot nicer looking than most I see planted. Planted them tight.

[Okrafarmer]

Here are our pines.



  

 

[WDH]

Little bitty needles, little bitty cones, and orangish scaly bark.  That is her.

[Phorester]

A mature VA pine also has hundreds of those little golf ball-sized cones in the top.  VA pine is also a poor natural pruner.  The lower limbs die from suppression as do the lower limbs on other trees, but they don't fall off.  You can see this trait in Okrafarmer's pictures. Both of these traits help in identifying it. These dead limbs produce loose knots, which then fall out when a VA pine log is sawn into lumber.  This occurs even in the big, older trees which finally lost those lower limbs decades ago and the bark covered over the knots so you can't see them.  That's why VA pine is not very valuable, even the big ones.

Finally, VA pine is shallow rooted.  You can't thin a pure stand since the trees left in the thinning would just blow down 5 - 10 years later. The standard management recommendation here with a pure stand of VA pine is to let it grow until it's big enough to sell for pulpwood, then convert it to a better tree by clearcutting and replanting with something else.

[Okrafarmer]

Well our local pine mill likes them very well, and would rather have them than loblolly. I don't know why. Loblolly looks like a more handsome tree.

So I guess these are Virginia pine, and I don't know if I've ever seen a shortleaf then. I've never seen a pine around here that had pitch pockets. Supposedly we are well within the range of shortleaf, but I will keep my eye out for a different kind. Virginia, Loblolly, and White pines are what we have here. Maybe an occasional Longleaf.

[WDH]

Shortleaf pine needles are about 1/2 the length of loblolly, and the cones are much smaller than loblolly.  I am sure that you have it around there.

[Okrafarmer]

Those VP's I showed you are the only short-needle bearing variety I am familiar with here. I have not seen any of the ones with the pitch pockets.

[WDH]

The pitch pockets are small and unobtrusive.

[Okrafarmer]

So what does the bark look like on a shortleaf? How can you tell a shortleaf from a virginia, especially if you can't get at the needles?

[WDH]

Shortleaf looks like loblolly.  Platy, not scaly.  The needles are just a lot shorter and the cones are 1/4th the size of loblolly.

[Okrafarmer]

Ok, I will keep watching for it.  ;D

[allmosdone]

  If you've got 19" logs, saw em'!! My buddy has a barn, Two tractor sheds, and several other verry nice structurs, all VA pine. There are huge 6 by 12 ridge beam carrying the roofs, and its plenty strong. No way would I chip those logs.   

[lumberjack48]

What do your log home builders use around there ?  I sold Balsam, White Spruce, and Norway for cabin logs. There were a few build with Aspen or Poplar, turned out very nice.
I've cut 80' Jack Pine, beautiful trees, 12" and up were cut in to logs, 12" down to 8" were cut for saw bolts, the rest pulpwood.

I think these Jacks would have made some nice cabin poles. I sure wish i would have built a home with them, hind site is always 20/20.
It only takes a 100 trees to build a 1200 sq. foot house.

[SwampDonkey]

Jack is very much like lodgepole pine over the big hump (Rockies).

[Okrafarmer]

Shortleaf looks like loblolly.  Platy, not scaly.  The needles are just a lot shorter and the cones are 1/4th the size of loblolly.

Ok, I will keep watching for it.  ;D

Does this resemble him? (Shortleaf)


 

And also, does the spiraling of the bark indicate spiral grain?

[WDH]

Yes.  Did you look for the little pitch pockets  ???.  Or maybe not as there were too many wild animals  .

[Okrafarmer]

I did look for the pitch pockets, but if they were there, they were very small. I saw things that looked like little tiny pin prick things, but if those are pitch pockets, I would never have guessed.  :D

Yes, there are some wild animals around Profdan's farm, to be sure!

[sealark37]

The Virginia pine is a prevalent evergreen in many areas of the Carolinas.  Too bad, the mills are not interested.  Some years ago it was made into interior paneling known as "knotty pine".  It is still used with a live edge as gable siding on log or rustic structures.  I noticed a goodly wack at the local firewood yard.  I stopped and asked if he used them as firewood.  He answered, "Not if you will haul them off".  I suppose the VP's largest contribution is as a wildlife feeder.  Birds and squirrels love the seeds.   Regards, Clark

[Okrafarmer]

I am thankful that our local pine mill buys all SYP's at the same price without complaining. However, the sawyer does say that Shortleaf is his favorite.

[Okrafarmer]

BTW, once we buy this lapsider, I think I will try making some VP lap siding. Like you say, it's real rustic, and what better way to use VP?

[WDH]

The pitch pockets look just like little moon craters.  They have raised edges just like a crater.  They are small, a little smaller than the "o" typed from the keyboard on this post.  Check out this website for a pic.  https://sites.google.com/site/appalachianforests/shortleaf-pine

Virginia pine does not meet the strength requirements for SYP (shortleaf, loblolly, slash, and longleaf), so it cannot be included with grade stamped SYP construction lumber.  That is why most mills will not buy it.  Doesn't make the grade.

[Okrafarmer]

Virginia pine does not meet the strength requirements for SYP (shortleaf, loblolly, slash, and longleaf), so it cannot be included with grade stamped SYP construction lumber.  That is why most mills will not buy it.  Doesn't make the grade.

Hmm, I wonder why he buys it. He definitely knows the difference. Not all of their lumber goes to be grade-stamped, but I wouldn't have thought that so much would be for non-stamped use. He does sell a lot of lumber locally for barns, sheds, fences, etc.

[Okrafarmer]

The pitch pockets look just like little moon craters.  They have raised edges just like a crater.  They are small, a little smaller than the "o" typed from the keyboard on this post.  Check out this website for a pic.  https://sites.google.com/site/appalachianforests/shortleaf-pine

Ok, I guess that's what I was seeing. I could have mistaken them for little insect bites. I think I can tell the species more by the shape of the bark plates, combined with the length of the needles.

[Ianab]

He does sell a lot of lumber locally for barns, sheds, fences, etc.

If it's being sold as ungraded, for non-inspected use, then being a little weaker isn't really an issue. I would guess he can buy the VP logs cheaper, and hence sell his ungraded wood for a better price and it's "good enough"?

[WDH]

Ian,

Yes, if the lumber is sold for local use for barns, sheds, and not used for residential or commercial framing, etc.  Commercially produced SYP from the big mills has to be grade stamped by a SPIB Lumber Grader.

Okra,

Yes, and the egg-sized cones versus the fist sized ones of loblolly.  Virginai pine has similar sized cones, but it has purple color on the apotheosis (inner tip of the cone scale).  The contrast in color is very distinct.  There is no such color distinction in shortleaf.  The inner end of the cone scale is bland. 

Get some shortleaf and virginia pine cones and inspect the inner tip of the cone scale  .

You can see the purple inner cone scale tips of virginia pine in this pic:



 

[Okrafarmer]

Yep. I see it. Profdan has all three on his place, Virginia, Shorleaf, and Loblolly. Now I am trying to learn to differentiate between Loblolly and Longleaf, which I think we encounter occasionally. It seems that Longleaf has the needles in a pom-pom like ball on the end of the branch, whereas Loblolly looks more like paint brush or fox-tail tufts.

As for the Virginia pine at the pine mill, it's a mystery to me still how he doesn't differentiate between them in price. He's never complained, and he doesn't pay us any more for the loblolly or shortleaf. He did complain that he doesn't like people planting loblolly in the big plantations when in his opinion they should plant shortleaf.

[SwampDonkey]

They stamp jack pine lumber under the SFP grade up here. I was wondering if they stamp VP under the same grade down there. Both pine look about the same and plantation jack pine is pretty knarly stuff. Wild jack pine grown thick is a world of difference in quality. Straight as guns and limb free for several feet. Irvings buy jack pine logs at their stud mill in Sussex. It's an on and off again proposition with those guys though, no matter what they are buying. 8 foot at around $60/mt or $66/ton, min 4-1/2" top, 13 max on the but. When you drive down around there, it's miles and miles of jack pine.

[WDH]

I am sure that some of it gets mixed in the the regular 4 commercial species of southern yellow pine.

Okra,

Longleaf pine and loblolly have a different branching habit.  The end of the branches where that round pom pom is located are very stout, at least twice the size of the end of the branches of loblolly.  Like the difference between a 1" - 1.5" dowel and a pencil.  Very distinctive, plus the long drooping needles and the big cones.  You can tell them apart going 60 MPH down the road.

[Okrafarmer]

I'm sure I will be able to tell them apart going 60 mph down the road once I am fully sure that what I am seeing is longleaf. When I am, then I will know. First, I have to positively identify one or two in my area. I know where two are that I suspect are LL. I need to stop and make a positive ID.

[Okrafarmer]

SD, 4½ inches on the top? You sure are spoiled. Our pine mills don't want anything less than 8" on the top.

[SwampDonkey]

I've seen them take a 2-1/2" top in fir and spruce during second thinnings.

[Road Runner]

Okra,  If you have any longleaf in your area my guess is it was planted as you are a good bit north of it's natural range which as a general rule runs on the north edge of the sandhills in SC.  We have some longleaf in Abbeville Co. but it was all planted, mostly on USFS land in the 50s with very slow growth in the red clay.  Longleaf likes sandy soil. 
Oconee, Pickens, and Greenville Counties have both shortleaf and virginia pine, but my guess is that most sawlogs are shortleaf due to the size. limbs, and knots associated with virginia pine.  Virginia pine is used for interior paneling (knotty pine), but not so much for framing.     

[Okrafarmer]

The two longleafs I suspect, are in someone's yard, so probably planted.

The Virginia pine obtain some decent size here, up to at least 16 inches dbh or more. We have tons of them around, it is one of the default trees for the whole area. Along with Sweetgum, Tulip Poplar, Water, Southern Red, and White Oak, Loblolly pine, and ERC.