Canoe advice. Looking to buy another one

coalsmok · April 07, 2019, 07:44:24 PM

Guys I don't have a lot of experience with the different types of canoes out there and am looking for thoughts and opinions on the different types. Our old fiberglass 16' canoe seems to be getting brittle and at the same time the keel is loosing its strength.
I take my family on trips down the elk river with varying types of water some class 1 whitewater and deep pools to less than 8" shallows.
Looking at capacities I can't go less than 16' and really should go up to 17'. And would like to be able to patch it when it gets a hole in it.
Mad River and Old town seem to be the top picks running right around a grand.

lxskllr · April 07, 2019, 08:07:41 PM

Patching is the tricky part. The good plastic laminate boats are tough to correctly fix. Fiberglass is the easiest, but heavy as I'm sure you're aware. Kevlar is similar to fiberglass for repairability, but $$$.

20 years ago I'd have sent to Mohawk. Great boats with great prices. Sadly, they aren't around anymore. AFAIK, Old Town and Mad River still make good boats, but you may have to be a little more careful with Old Town. They're in the entry level market as well as higher end, and you could end up with a heavy boat. I believe Mad River is all enthusiast grade, but it's been ages since I've been into paddling.

edit:
BTW, never drag a boat on portage. Yea, it easier, but it's abuse, and you're grinding away dollars. Scraping through shallows is just part of the game unless you're grinding the whole run. Gotta wait til the water comes up! Also, store them covered and off the ground. Sunlight's hard on, well... Pretty much everything, but especially plastics. In a garage would be best, but at least have a tarp over it.

edit2:
Wow, the landscape has really changed. Royalex isn't being made anymore, which was a great material to save weight, though it lacked abrasion resistance. Also, it doesn't look like any of the big players are making whitewater boats anymore, which is what I was in to.

edit3:
I'd get the Old Town Penobscot. It's an old tested design, and the specs look good for the flattish water you're interested in. A little more slender than the other boats in its price range, with little rocker, so it should be a bit faster in the water. I'm assuming maneuverability isn't a primary concern for the water you're paddling(Little whitewater, and not too many rocks).

Ljohnsaw · April 07, 2019, 10:57:16 PM

I guess I'm a bit uncouth. I've always had a 17' aluminum canoe. They've weighed in at 70 pounds. A bit heavy but I could car top it by my self when I was a few years younger. They are strong and can take abuse. You can (or could) get a light weight version that had some sort of stretched aluminum. I think they weighed in at 50 pounds or so.

Bandmill Bandit · April 07, 2019, 11:54:14 PM

Not sure if your be interested or up to it but the best canoe you can ever have is cedar strip.

I built one 30 years ago. 18'6" Red Bird weighed 56lbs when I was done. I have yet to EVER have any one in any thing other than another Cedar strip match my canoe for any thing.

It is tough, easy to load/unload, easy to repair, VERY easy to paddle and every thing that goes with that.

The Redbird is a tripper and I have had 900lbs of gear plus 2 x 12 year old girls and me on a canoe trip up the Seymor Arm of the Shushwap leading 15 other canoes that were mostly Gruman and a few fiber glass. All the other canoes had two adult paddlers and 2 kids and mostly personal effects of the occupants.

They kept up to me and while I had to work I dont think I worked any harder than any of the others on the trip did. But to be fair I kinda grew up in a canoe so paddling experience was not comparable for most of the other paddlers.

That cedar canoe has done a few thousand Km of paddling and has never let me down and has been very easy to keep in "ship shape"!

You would never regret building one for your self.

rjwoelk · April 08, 2019, 12:31:10 AM

I built a 13 ft cedar strip canoe in grade 11. Some one stole it back in mide 80s. Would like to build another one. Very stable worked well on lakes.

coalsmok · April 08, 2019, 07:51:19 AM

I wish I had the time for a cedar strip canoe build or the budget for a purchased one.

Most of aluminum canoes on the elk look like they have been hammered out a few times. Nothing against them personally and I may end up with one of the right deal comes along. At the moment though my wife seems to be in agreement that a new canoe would be a good investment. The kids will be 10, 5 and 5 this summer so it is going to be awhile before we can do family kayak trips.

Our trip yesterday I think was the last trip on our current canoe. Put two cracks 3/4 of the way from the top to the bottom on one side. Going to take lots of glass and epoxy to fix those.

LeeB · April 08, 2019, 08:06:41 AM

My first canoe was a broken down aluminum one that blew up in a storm back when I lived next to Lake Travis. It was grate for trot lining or drift fishing when the wind was right. The broken ribs actually made it more stable. I always left it down by the water in case the rightful owner ever happened to look for it. I did actually meet the guy several years later and told him it was still his as far as I was concerned. He didn't want it. Had already bought a new one with the insurance money. After that one finally became so broken down and full of leaks I bought a 17 ft fiberglass. I've had it for probably better than 16 years now. The keel is worse for the wear and Lindy had loaned to to some of the local kids that really did a number on it. Glass and epoxy fixed it. Haven't used it since though. Recently bought another aluminum 17 footer and have yet to use it either. The Buffalo river near by to us is great for canoeing but I just never seem to find the time.

Ljohnsaw · April 08, 2019, 09:26:34 AM

Quote from: coalsmok on April 08, 2019, 07:51:19 AMThe kids will be 10, 5 and 5 this summer so it is going to be awhile before we can do family kayak trips.

Please be careful and always wear PFD's!

Last month, a dad and a young child (5 or 6 yo) were out in their canoe on the lower Sacramento - flat calm but very cold water. Neither had PFD's. Child fell over so dad jumped in. Kid was saved, dad was never seen again. Very sad and preventable. :-[

lxskllr · April 08, 2019, 10:37:59 AM

Aluminum is hot in the summer, loud, and it's "sticky" on rocks. They're best use is fleet rentals, and/or kids, They can take a lot of abuse and neglect. I personally wouldn't use one unless it came to me almost free.

coalsmok · April 08, 2019, 12:47:00 PM

Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 08, 2019, 09:26:34 AM
Please be careful and always wear PFD's!

Last month, a dad and a young child (5 or 6 yo) were out in their canoe on the lower Sacramento - flat calm but very cold water. Neither had PFD's. Child fell over so dad jumped in. Kid was saved, dad was never seen again. Very sad and preventable. :-[

Always. The Elk is notorious for undertow currents. No one gets in without a PFD. An adult can walk on the bottom in lots of paces but you never know what happens.

coalsmok · April 08, 2019, 12:48:48 PM

When time allows I'm going to call up Mad River and ask how hard their new triple layer hull is to repair. Liking the looks of them better the more I look.

Skip · April 08, 2019, 07:05:51 PM

Need to watch out for them BIG Muskies on the Elk too !

coalsmok · April 09, 2019, 01:11:10 PM

If I found a Royalex boat is there anything I need to be on the lookout for? Waiting on a response from a guy selling a 16' Old Town that is supposed to be made from this stuff.

lxskllr · April 09, 2019, 02:16:54 PM

Look for deep scrapes going below the top layer, sun damage, and cracks. Royalex is light and durable, but difficult to properly repair. It's my preferred material if in good shape. It won't be as robust as a poly laminate, but it'll be lighter.

barbender · April 09, 2019, 02:40:55 PM

I took my first and only whitewater run in an Old Towne Royalex canoe a friend had just bought used. Aside from about losing my life that day😳😳 we found that the bottom of the canoe had been flexed enough that it had lost it's stiffness and flexed more than it should, causing it to handle funny. It didn't matter much, after it got wrapped around a bunch of rocks in a Class V Rapids (a great place for your first run 🙄 I was going on someone else's judgement being I was new to it. Big mistake). Anyways, that canoe didn't have anything obviously wrong with it when we picked it up, you couldn't tell until you got it in the water. He bought 2 of them, they were a matched pair and the other one was fine in the water. All that to say, I would suggest getting them to let you try it out first.

lxskllr · April 09, 2019, 03:04:26 PM

Quote from: barbender on April 09, 2019, 02:40:55 PM
I took my first and only whitewater run in an Old Towne Royalex canoe a friend had just bought used. Aside from about losing my life that day😳😳 we found that the bottom of the canoe had been flexed enough that it had lost it's stiffness and flexed more than it should, causing it to handle funny. It didn't matter much, after it got wrapped around a bunch of rocks in a Class V Rapids (a great place for your first run 🙄 I was going on someone else's judgement being I was new to it. Big mistake). Anyways, that canoe didn't have anything obviously wrong with it when we picked it up, you couldn't tell until you got it in the water. He bought 2 of them, they were a matched pair and the other one was fine in the water. All that to say, I would suggest getting them to let you try it out first.

That's a good point I forgot about. They do have a bit of bottom flex. It wasn't that much on short whitewater boats, but it's probably more noticeable on 16'-17' boats.

Southside · April 09, 2019, 06:00:08 PM

The very best canoe I ever had, which I had to work out of for several years, was an Old Town XL Tripper, 20'. We would lengthen the thwarts by a couple of inches to keep more water out when in the rough. Had that in everything from deep lakes with a 6 hp outboard off the side to class II white water, to places I had to stand and pole it. Very stable and they turn quite well for such a long boat, also quite forgiving when you run one over a rock.

Ron Scott · April 09, 2019, 06:24:21 PM

I've done a lot of canoe miles in the Thompson and Old Town wood canvass canoes, the Grumman, Alumnicraft, and Mirocraft aluminum canoes and the Sawyer Kevlar canoes. I'm partial to the Old Towns, but you might want to check on the Sawyer brand canoes made in Oscoda, MI. They are pricy, but top of the line. Sometimes one can pick up a good used one at a reasonable price.

coalsmok · April 09, 2019, 08:35:28 PM

I am trying to work out the details but I am between two choices. I am going to have to drive around 4hrs for either one.
One is a mad river adventure 167 that has been a rental at for two years. It is half the price if number 2 but also is 84lb.
Two is a Old Town camper 16 that is older but is made from Royalex and weights in at 54lb. Pictures make it look well kept and the owner just redone the seats.

lxskllr · April 09, 2019, 08:53:31 PM

The Camper's a good looking boat; fairly traditional design. A little fat imo, but it gets good user reviews online.

edit:
Here's a review from another forum that seems to encapsulate what people are saying about it. See if that matches your expectations...

QuoteThe good & the not so good...
I had one and you can check my review on this website - but I'll go through it some right here for ya...

Good:
*Easy to get used to for a beginner.
*Reasonably light for a 16' Royalex canoe.
*Hauls a lot of stuff and has full stems for good buoyancy.
*Rugged.
*Easy to stand in on flat water.
*Excellent poling canoe for especially shallow water, and pretty good for poling all-round. Easy to carve an edged turn in.
*Turns pretty easy just about anywhere.

Not so:
*Not generally as efficient as similar priced and sized Royalex boats.
*Lacks secondary stability compared to shallow arched or vee hulls and is therefore less suitable to rough water.
*Catches more wind and skids across the water more easily as a result, than some other canoes given a similar load (I.E. - Penobscot, Malecite)
*Tracks less easily than arched or vee hulls.

It's a good canoe, within it's limitations. I wish I could have kept mine (had to prioritize, y'know), because when the river is really low it's about the best thing going.

Old Town Camper 16, pros/ cons? â€" Message Boards

coalsmok · April 18, 2019, 10:01:05 AM

Well we will be leaving in the morning to pickup the Mad River canoe. Had issues with the seller of the Old Town even though I was willing to pay him a deposit to hold it.
Had hoped to get a quick trip in on the New River but according to the locals it isn't looking promising.

WV Sawmiller · April 18, 2019, 10:38:27 AM

Congrats on the new canoe. I hope it lives up to your hopes and expectations. If you end up on our part of the New River give me a shout. There are lots of day trips marked out around here on the New and Greenbrier Rivers.

coalsmok · April 29, 2019, 09:17:53 PM

Well we finally got to take our new canoe out today. It is worlds better than our old one. I can lift it easily enough to get it on our car myself. It handles all of our weight better and floats about 3-4" higher than our old on.
Only regret is I didn't go ahead and order a new one of this model when I was first looking at them.

coalsmok · May 27, 2019, 06:05:14 PM

Finally got ourselves out on a river with the canoe for some family time.
Here are photos of Kanawha Falls. Handled the rougher water and fast currents pretty well with all of us in it.

Next up is trying to plan a trip down the New River from Hinton area to Sandstone Falls area. Hopefully this will be a multi day camp/canoe trip.

Ron Scott · May 27, 2019, 09:56:23 PM

Good to see the life jackets on use. I've done several white water raft trips down the New River Gorge when I lived in Richwood, WVA 1974-78.

LeeB · May 28, 2019, 01:54:12 AM

I too applaud the life jacket use. Just an observation about color though, blue is hard to see on the water. Orange is much more visible.

Don P · May 28, 2019, 06:50:58 AM

Did you all run that? That's quite a drop into what looks like a waring blender!
The New crosses the state line and comes into my county as it crosses from the headwaters in NC. Mostly class 1 and 2 although there is one class 3 at Molly Shoals. Back in the day I ran the gorge and the Gauley in a kayak, it's a whole nuther beast up there.

coalsmok · May 28, 2019, 08:02:47 AM

No we didn't run that

, I don't think I have ever heard of anyone trying it. The falls are part natural falls with a man made dam built on them I believe, on one side there is a hydro electric plant and there are warning floats on a cable across the river above the dam.

This was short sidebar to a weekend camping trip further south in the Beckly area. We didn't take cameras on our day on Bluestone lake. Wanted it to be a strictly family day as our daughter starts the summer week on week off with her dad this Friday. Seen some pretty stuff there but didn't catch any fish like WV Sawmiller shows photos of :(.

We purchased this canoe off of a canoe rental shop down in North Carolina based on one of the forks of the New River. Lady just laughed at me when I told her it was a whole different river on our end of it. Looked like long quite pools was the norm there, I had always thought of the New as big rocks and fast water.

WV Sawmiller · May 28, 2019, 09:32:56 AM

Glad you came down and brought some money to the local economy. :D We had a bunch down this weekend for Memorial Day. Some stranger in the local Kroger asked me where to get fish bait and I sent her to the closest bait and tackle shop. Sorry I didn't know you were here but glad you had good family time together. I guarantee you passed over some big catfish as I have caught them every spot I put out lines - some more than others obviously.

coalsmok · May 28, 2019, 11:00:41 AM

Wv the trip to Bluestone wasn't a planned thing. We were going to stay at Little Beaver park and let the oldest paddle the canoe some on small quiet water. First sign on the gate there ended those plans. Can't use private water craft on the pond there.
As you can see from the picture most of my fishing buddies don't have the attention span to catch much due to their age. They are still learning and I don't get to set in one spot long if the fish are not hot to strike. Throwing a line in and napping till a fish comes along isn't their thing.

WV Sawmiller · May 28, 2019, 11:35:56 AM

Coalsmok,

Let me know when you are here again and if I'm available I'll run down with my 18' johnboat and a bunch of 10' crappie poles to a couple of my smokehouses where I catch my bait and they can jerk little green sunfish out of the rocks to their heart's content. I take my granddaughters down there and they help me stock up on bait and we have a blast. I'm not talking about big fish just aggressive little bait fish we use to catch the big ones. A 3" sunfish will nearly jerk your pole out of your hand and a 6" version feels like a whale.