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Reality check, BF pricing and railroad ties

Started by Jcald327, January 13, 2020, 07:59:21 AM

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tacks Y

No smart advice here. But there is a large mill in my area cutting ties because they are making more money at it. With lumber prices down, go where the money is. 

moodnacreek

There is always more to it than what meets the eye. High speed equipment, low payments, good log supply, cheap fuel, reliable help but most of all markets for bark, chips, sawdust and maybe fire wood. The ties or side boards could just break even if the residuals sell.

Jcald327

So this guy is persistent.
I pushed myself in the 42 to 49 cent per bf range, and pretty sure I even quoted 45 an hour for me, 60 with 1 helper, and 75 with a second, and said I was out on ties.  The prices I gave allowed for 3 to 4 ties an hour depending on help.

Customer/employer here runs a forestry company.  His explanation is he is pulling 10mbf of logs off of these jobs daily, with about 1mbf being of tie quality.  All of his off cuts are used for something other than mulch (dont remember off hand but apparently that market does very well with the rainy year the almanac is predicting), he even sells his dust and chips for bedding.  He said he used to run a bandmill before 'moving up'.  I really never expected to get a response but what do I know anyway.

Well I got a response this evening stating he was gonna keep my info for large log slabs and such, and then asked if he had a bandmill, and the equipment to minimize lifting / manual labor (which was a key point in the tire talks) if I'd be interested in running the mill for him.  I've never heard of non owner operators on portable mills but I suppose it happens.  What's the rate here?  I don't claim to be a wiz at it by any means, but I'm a quick learn, an avid 23 tabs on google kind of researcher, and a sponge.  I know the only true experience comes from putting the blade in the log, but I feel that with a little guidance and training I can be ready to knock out quality product in a few weeks.  At this point in my life I'm past the 12$ an hour stuff that used to be part of my 60-80 hour a week grind, and am REALLY focusing on being a good husband, and a great FATHER.  I would be willing to work to the tune of 20-25 an hour depending on how he manages travel time (as some jobs may be local, and some up to 2.5 hours out) a few (read 3) days a week, just need to keep up with his production expectations.

Time will tell haha
Lucas 8-27 w/ slabber
Husqvarna 395xp 32, 42 inch
Rancher 455 24 inch
Stihl 271 20 inch
Grandberg 66 alaska mill
Lowrider cnc 4x8 capacity
Logrite mega 78 and 60

stavebuyer

The guy is persistent because as of now ties are by far the best market for most logs that will make them. The flooring market is overloaded; low pricing and quotas. You could easily justify the wage level you indicated operating a hydraulic mill.

timbour

Out of curiosity what species of logs are used now for RR ties and how are they preserved if creosote is no longer used.  I assume it is something akin to pressure treated and preserved SYP?

thanks

Ron Wenrich

If he wants to be an owner, then you're going to be either an employee or a sub contractor.  If you're an employee, then figure out the price you want per hour.  Make sure you get health care and a 401k and a decent vacation schedule as well as overtime pay for over 40 hrs.  That's what any decent mfg job has.

As a sub contractor, then you can charge per bf.  You'll have to cover insurances, SS taxes, retirement, etc from the earnings.  But, then you have to figure out who does the repairs and saw sharpening.  I didn't do repairs as a sub contractor.  Not my expertise.  

If you're into cutting ties, he might want to consider getting a portable circle mill that can punch out 100 ties per day.  It brings the cost down.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jcald327

Talked to him some more today, hes already spoken to his 'business partner's and the bank about a bandmill.  Hes looking at a Baker 3638 diesel.  Not super impressed by the speed of the hydraulics for something in a production setting, but also like it better than moving things by hand.  He threw out the arbitrary number 'if I was paying you say 20$ an hour', which leads me to believe he would be willing to pay 24-26 as I wouldn't arbitrarily give a price higher than I was willing to pay if I was looking to hire someone.  He expects 400bf an hour with a skid loader of some kind, and a 3rd body for off loading.  He wants a truck load every other day 8-9mbf.  Looking at mostly 4/4 stock, and ties (I'm not sure how his conversation has evolved away from ties, to 4/4 stock).   Says hes getting mostly hickory these days.  

I'm at 60$ an hour for 3 people, 25 me, 20 for my 60 year old drive anything on wheels operator, and 15 for his son, as an offloader.  He wants to subcontract the whole job, what I do with the money (in terms of pay or taxes) is up to me. 
Still very leery of the whole endeavor honestly.  I dont know that I'm ready to meet large scale productions expectations, where every cut/board/tie/flitch/cant/pile of sawdust is accounted for towards the bottom line.  
Lucas 8-27 w/ slabber
Husqvarna 395xp 32, 42 inch
Rancher 455 24 inch
Stihl 271 20 inch
Grandberg 66 alaska mill
Lowrider cnc 4x8 capacity
Logrite mega 78 and 60

Tom the Sawyer

Don't forget about taxes, insurance, taxes, unemployment, taxes, benefits, etc.  Three people banking on the learning curve associated with new bandsaw mill operators... risky.
07 TK B-20, Custom log arch, 20' trailer w/log loading arch, F350 flatbed dually dump.  Piggy-back forklift.  LS tractor w/FEL, Bobcat S250 w/grapple, Stihl 025C 16", Husky 372XP 24/30" bars, Grizzly 20" planer, Nyle L200M DH kiln.
If you call and my wife says, "He's sawin logs", I ain't snoring.

Bandmill Bandit

Baker builds a good mill but 400 BF/hr average 8 hours a day will be a fairly long stretch. I can see about 300 BF as a reasonable target with that mill UNLESS you have a full suite of auto mechanical material handling to go with it.  

Also those labour rates seem a bit on the stingy side.

That mill with operator should bill out at around a $100 an hour PLUS any extra bodies and iron. 
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Southside

Absolutely no way I would do that. You are not going to get consistent production of 400 BF/ hr with that set up. Throw in an edger, a sort table, power take away conveyors, ditch the Hickory and 300 / hr would be closer to an 8 hour average. 

He wants someone to make him rich. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

WV Sawmiller

   Maybe offer to saw them for $10 each for ties and $.30/bf for 4/4 lumber with him providing the mill, skid steer and having the logs staged for quick and easy access. If my math is right he says he's expecting 9.5 ties per hour. I can see that in a circle mill with conveyors constantly bringing the logs and removing the slabs and finished ties. Its hard for me to believe your helpers can load and unload you quick enough to do that.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

SawyerTed

400 bdft per hour to make 4,000 per day.  Sounds like 12-14 hour work days assuming everything runs perfectly.  There's refueling sawmill and support machines, blade changes, lube tank to refill, slabs to move after they accumulate, stacks of ties and lumber to move, daily maintenance, clean up, blade sharpening, unloading and loading trucks etc. and nobody has had lunch yet.

I don't believe your man is not providing sufficient equipment or manpower to reach the 4,500 bdft per day goal. The sawmill is just one piece of the puzzle.  A skid steer is not an ideal log handler nor is it an ideal finished goods handler for production. A wheel loader with grapple forks for logs and a telehandler with forks for finished goods movement and loading would be my choices.  Even a big skid steer just doesn't have the capacity to be an efficient choice-think one log at a time.  Have you ever tried to unload a log truck with a skid steer?

A log deck will be a must and a live deck almost a necessity. 

With those kinds of production goals, two helpers at the mill and one driving equipment seems to required.  Every time the sawyer steps away from the mill, production goes down. 

Those labor rates are low in my opinion.  Maybe starting out those rates are appropriate but long term help will be hard to keep.  
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

EOTE

Maybe this will be some help...I tracked my time and board feet very closely sawing approximately 50K board feet, albeit by myself on a WM LT40... Included onloading logs, sawing, offloading, but not stickering, palletizing, sawmill maintenance, fueling, etc.  Sawing was split between 2x material and 1x boards.  My total labor worked out to .86 minutes per board foot.  

I know there's probably less sawing passes for ties but there are offsets as well.  Hope it helps.
EOTE (End of the Earth - i.e. last place on the road in the middle of nowhere)  Retired.  Old guys rule!
Buzz Lightsaw, 12 Mexicans, and lots of Guy Toys

Bandmill Bandit

 Also 300BF/hr is a reasonable TOTAL BF output per hour NOT the tie out put which I would expect to be at about 40% of total BF out put.

AND to get a consistent 300BF/hr every things would need to be ticking like a Rolex watch everyday all day all week.

Also to get additional 4X material out of logs that you are targeting for ties you pretty much need 12" small end minimum to do that assumming your cutting 6"x9" ties.  

If you are cutting ONLY ties, AND you are ONLY making 4 cuts per tie to get there 6 minutes is doable but not on an hour in hour out basis. AND your logs gota be pretty much sorted and bucked so that you ONLY get the prefect tie logs which would likely be about 40%(and that is a bit generous) max of the logs in yard.

You would need them sorted to that spec and stacked before you ever start the mill.

If it was me looking at doing it with my equipment;

$100 an hour for me and the mill
$20 an hour per laborer
$80 an hour bobcat/FEL with grapple and forks

All processing including milling, bucking, staging, loading, unloading, sorting, banding et. el.  is also billed at $100 an hour plus the helpers and the hourly rate for additional equipment used to process.

I wouldn't touch it for a BF price. Too many unknowns! 

Sawyer Ted was typing the same time as I was and is pretty much saying exactly what I am saying in more detail.
Skilled Master Sawyer. "Skilled labour don't come cheap. Cheap labour dont come skilled!
2018 F150 FX4, Husqvarna 340, 2 Logright 36 inch cant hooks and a bunch of stuff I built myself

Jcald327

Really this is where I am at as well, hourly all the way because I dont want to get into any of the problems assuming perfect production in an imperfect world.  
I think he told me today hes running through 25-30 tons of material a day, and when he contacted me originally it was 10mbf a day with 1mbf being clear straight tie worthy logs.  But 1mbf of millable lumber does not 400bf an hour make day in and day out.  Pulling from bakers website on the mill, it claims I believe 5000-8000bf a day with 3 people, no indication if this is 8, 12, or even 14 hour workdays.  He said hes run this model mill before and turned 3000bf a day 'with a lot of breaks' by himself, but even on an 8 hour day this doesnt make 400bf hour.  

If I broke it down to an 8 hour day, and cut bakers numbers in half, your looking at 312bf an hour, and this is a super subjective target. 4 roll tie logs @ 44 bf a pop 9 an hour, sounds do able but hard, honestly giving the log loader a minute to load, another minute to unload, and 7 minutes to level, cut, rotate, repeat.  But cutting a 36 inch log (let's just assume a perfect 36 inch x 8 foot cylinder) is 675 bf, and 35 cuts if in slab form, and a minute down, 30 seconds back and 10 seconds to adjust and send the carriage back on it's way and your way above your target.

He claims everything will be setup ideally, with all logs trimmed and organized, big end all facing same direction, with a huge supply logs staged, bucked to the same 8'10 inch length, and the work divided out daily (ie all logs staged for the day will be 4/4, the next day they may all be tie logs, but no switching every other log).

***disclaimer as I know those are over simplified perfect world have no bearing equations, just showing the big differences depensing on his expectations, and why I would rather go hourly***

Maybe a skid steer was an assumption on my part, as he only really outlined material handling equipment, and not specifically a skid loader.  

60 $ an hour puts his cost at 15 cents a bf with a 400bf yeild and 20 cents a bf at 300.  

I've asked for a meet and greet to feel him out completely, as numbers, expectations, and production numbers(both expected, and available logs) keeps changing.
Lucas 8-27 w/ slabber
Husqvarna 395xp 32, 42 inch
Rancher 455 24 inch
Stihl 271 20 inch
Grandberg 66 alaska mill
Lowrider cnc 4x8 capacity
Logrite mega 78 and 60

Southside

Again - why did he approach you?  Nothing against you personally, but why you?  Also what magic contract does he have with mother nature, loggers, and the tie buyers to make all of this happen so perfectly all the time?  Not trying to be negative but I can bring you one town over from where I am and show you an operation that a year ago had two guys working in less than ideal conditions, but they were working, over the summer and fall they blew up like a soda bottle going over the rockies, rented kilns, a whole facility, hired oodles of laborers, had multiple truck loads of material coming in daily, now all of their equipment is for sale and they are flat busted.  Want to know what they were sawing?  Commodity hardwood lumber, including 4/4 and ties on a brand new 3665.  It's a nice mill, I may go look at it as they need cash. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

stavebuyer

The current tie market peaked a couple months back. The collapse of the flooring market has pushed some of the big grade mills into sawing ties so the bust will be sooner rather than later. If I had the logs and equipment I'd ride it while it lasted but no way I would borrow or buy to jump in.

I rolled my own LT70DCS into a super before Wood-mizer made them. Live deck, inclined conveyor, transfer table, edger, green chain, barn sweep, chipper, sawdust blower and 3.5 men(dedicated wheel loader half time on mill and half time on lumber grading side).

We sawed +/- 100 logs a day. 75-80 made ties. Almost 50% 4/4 side lumber. Wouldn't touch a hickory. Mostly oak. 30-35K ft per week(multi-year real world numbers). 40 hour weeks including breakdowns and cleanup.

I am a log broker. I hand picked the logs most profitable to saw for the equipment and markets I had out of several hundred thousand board feet per week going through my yards.

A lot of people in the business with big mills told me it wouldn't work. They were wrong.

LT70DCS - YouTube



LT70DCS - YouTube



SawyerTed

Southside's question is a good one.  When I was approached, I had been sawing about 8 or ten months.  I believe my inexperience was the reason the guy came to me, thinking I might be swayed by the money he was talking about.  I'm pretty sure I was going to add capacity over his regular mill.  As soon as demand declined I was going to be cut loose.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Jcald327

I'm not sure what made him choose me.  Currently I am the only one on craigslist, but that's not common.  Maybe it's because I almost bit at 30 cents a bf so he thinks I'll be cheap, or maybe it's because I am (although I have yet to give him a price to run his mill vs our mill).  Possibly because he knows my overhead is low, and someone with a high woodmizer hydraulic payment may want to take the difference between customers mill (60$ hour) and their own mill (100-120$ hour with help) to put towards payoff.  

As to the magical contract skill, I know he had the next 5 months lined up already, and hes looking at partnering with a log yard in his operating area to cut boards and ties from what they have there too.  Theres also a claim that overseas buyers are stopping by multiple times a week and hes working on setting up the export side as well.  From everything hes saying, hes growing exponentially and he cant fill the orders he already has, but I am still quite suspect to the whole gig.

You guys are really good at planting the seeds of doubt, and I'm not mad about it.  I like to think every plan will flourish into fruition, although this is rarely the case.

***edit***
This may just be a ploy where he thinks I will jump the sign on money and not account for all the other parts of, for all intents and purposes, owning a business (as a 1099 contractor with employees).  But I am not someone who is easily taken advantage of, I work for fair wages, but those are my take home after everything is accounted for wages, and do not take kindly to nickle and diming.  I would assume for everyone to make fair wages all things considered we may be closer to 25c a bf, or 100$ hr.  And after he factors machine cost, wear and tear, expendables, and handling equipment operating costs, we may not make a deal.
****Edit****
Lucas 8-27 w/ slabber
Husqvarna 395xp 32, 42 inch
Rancher 455 24 inch
Stihl 271 20 inch
Grandberg 66 alaska mill
Lowrider cnc 4x8 capacity
Logrite mega 78 and 60

moodnacreek

From my experience and these posts it shows that many small sawmills don't just saw lumber [like I do].  There is usually another source of income. Buying and selling logs, metal roofing, firewood, building pallets, fence posts etc. Moodna creek sawmill only survived because the Mrs. worked at the local collage.

Jcald327

Quote from: moodnacreek on January 16, 2020, 08:06:34 AM
From my experience and these posts it shows that many small sawmills don't just saw lumber [like I do].  There is usually another source of income. Buying and selling logs, metal roofing, firewood, building pallets, fence posts etc. Moodna creek sawmill only survived because the Mrs. worked at the local collage.
I would love to do this full time, but I dont think a lucas is going to compete with a hydraulic bandmill, and the local amish presence.  I think I would need to charge between 65-85 an hour to account for maintenance, expendables, and down time to replace a full time job.  I only need roughly half that with my military disability, but there are plenty of other jobs that will prove to be less stressful than running your own business, and foot the required bill income wise.  
Lucas 8-27 w/ slabber
Husqvarna 395xp 32, 42 inch
Rancher 455 24 inch
Stihl 271 20 inch
Grandberg 66 alaska mill
Lowrider cnc 4x8 capacity
Logrite mega 78 and 60

Ron Wenrich

He couldn't get the Amish to do the sawing for him?  Generally, its hard to beat their prices.  

From what I've read on the Forum, hickory is the devil's wood on a bandmill.   I know my production dropped on days where we run solid hickory.  Your blade isn't going to stay sharp very long, especially in unbarked logs.  After sawing for 10 hrs/day, you'll spend how many more hours sharpening blades?

It also sounds like some days you'll be cutting grade and some days ties.  That sounds a bit different than originally planned.  More saw passes per log will reduce your production.  Then there is that pesky problem of edging.  400bf/hr means that you'll have to have some hrs with much more than that to make up for the ones that have less.  To make your trailerload every other day is going to mean you'll be spending more time at the mill than at home.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

moodnacreek

If there was an Amish mill within 2 hours of here, I would be doomed.

Jcald327

The amish around here, at least on smaller jobs, are around 40cents a BF, and will cut/slab however you want from beams to slabs to 3/4 boards for board and batten.  Not sure how they price big runs like this, or how prevalent their presence is in the nashville area (where this job/s would be) vs up in the fort campbell/hopkinsville area.
Lucas 8-27 w/ slabber
Husqvarna 395xp 32, 42 inch
Rancher 455 24 inch
Stihl 271 20 inch
Grandberg 66 alaska mill
Lowrider cnc 4x8 capacity
Logrite mega 78 and 60

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