I took my MS 441 Stihl to the local dealer last week for a check up and repairs and he just called and said it has lost compression and is not worth repairing. I bought it in new from this dealer in February 2015 and it has been my primary saw for firewood, tree thinning/logging and mill use. I have always been diligent about running fresh gas at a 50:1 mixture per Sthil recommendations and don't remember any significant repair issues prior to this.
I asked the dealer if he could identify the cause and his response basically was "These things just wear out over time."
Does this sound like a reasonable life expectancy and if so any suggestions on other brands and models which may be more durable or more cost effective? I'm looking for something to pull about a 24" bar. Thanks for your input.
Nope - Not at all - except from a dealer more interested in selling you a new saw rather than trying to fix yours!
Look elsewhere for a second opinion.. in my humble opinion.
I asked him again and he gave me the same answer. Does that count? ::)
I will check around here but don't have any great sources. The last time I had a 440 fixed it is supposedly fixed and I still can't get it to crank and run.
I bought a similar sized Makita years ago because my local repair guy sold them and I figured he was going to be fixing it. It did well for a while but the dealer quit selling them then it became too hard to find parts and repair service in this part of the country. I'll see what others recommend here and look around. Thanks.
I'd fix the one you have. Doesn't sound like a fatal problem. If you wanted to try it yourself, I'm sure the gearheads here could help you through it. Alternatively, try to find a shop that's interested in repairs, and not just selling new gear.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 27, 2020, 12:27:22 PM
I asked the dealer if he could identify the cause and his response basically was "These things just wear out over time."
Does this sound like a reasonable life expectancy and if so any suggestions on other brands and models which may be more durable or more cost effective? I'm looking for something to pull about a 24" bar. Thanks for your input.
No, for a $900 saw it certainly does not. If he can't tell you what 'wore out' then it sounds like sloppy lazy work. Find another shop. This happens around here all the time.
This thread is a case in point. Same thing, checked by dealer and told to throw it out.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=105794.msg1647928#top (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=105794.msg1647928#top)
This kind of "service" is everywhere.
My buddy Tom who owns a tree service dropped one off,gave it to me.No compression so he bought a new one .Danged spark plug backed out .Took me all of 10 minutes to fix it .I could have been dishonest but I called him up and gave it back to him .Evidently it did it several more times after that so he had a coil put in the plug hole ..
I personally think, although it was never made public knowledge something could have been amiss when it was made .
On the design which I understand was driven by environmental edicts I'll just say I prefer the older design of the MS 440 .Same for the MS 201T which replaced the MS 200T.
Was it not running, or hard to start before you carried it there? They aren't That hard to work on.
Most of my saws are four times+ that old.
Tom,
It had been running good but I'd have to pull it 10-15 times to start and with my recent injuries to hand and ATV flipping I suspect I am not pulling as hard. I replaced the plug but no joy. I figured maybe good cleaning and tune up would make it easier to start so I took it to the dealer I bought it from. I called another today who is new and about 5 miles further up the road. He says for $42.50 (I guess that is half hour at $85/hr mechanic rate) he can tell me if fixable or not and I guess I will do that.
I am no small engine mechanic and know nothing about replacing cylinders, pistons, seals, etc. on such a machine and unfortunately I don't have anybody else around I know of any more who works on such that I trust.
Good luck with the saw,
Sorry about your experience with your purchasing dealer,
Let us know what shop 2 finds,
D
I agree, that saw should not be worn out after 5 years with your use. You are not a professional logger and you look after your tools. I would like to know what the compression reading is.
@sawguy21 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1763) ,
He said it was reading 65 and should be 90. I don't know if that is PSI for ft lbs or what measurements he was citing.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 27, 2020, 06:49:01 PM
Tom,
It had been running good but I'd have to pull it 10-15 times to start and with my recent injuries to hand and ATV flipping I suspect I am not pulling as hard. I replaced the plug but no joy. I figured maybe good cleaning and tune up would make it easier to start so I took it to the dealer I bought it from. I called another today who is new and about 5 miles further up the road. He says for $42.50 (I guess that is half hour at $85/hr mechanic rate) he can tell me if fixable or not and I guess I will do that.
I am no small engine mechanic and know nothing about replacing cylinders, pistons, seals, etc. on such a machine and unfortunately I don't have anybody else around I know of any more who works on such that I trust.
Doubtful it has a fatal issue (although possible). Most likely a tuning/replaceable part type of issue I would say, without being too familiar with that particular model . If you lack the mechanical skills to fix you may have the people skills enough to find a decent, honest mechanic to fix for a fair price. Commercial grade saws should give good service for yonks if treated right.
Hope you get some satisfaction this time around.
Howard this gets curiouser and curiouser. ;D
Just to summarize, so you can correct any incorrect assumptions:
1) the saw is hard starting
2) the saw runs pretty well when finally started
3) The 'mechanic' says the compression is 65psi? (this would indicate to me that it probably will not start at all and would run very poorly when it does start with loss of power, so at this moment, that number is dubious.)
I understand your reluctance to opening it up, but this could be very easily fixed, or fixed by somebody with just a little more time working on saws. If you read that thread I referenced above, it was a very similar issue. The actual total time I spent on that saw was under 2 hours and I had it apart about 3 times as I was exploring and learning. (Part of my 'process'.)
My experience is that most of these things that happen to regular usage saws (but not professional day long usage all the time) is that the solutions are simple more often than not.
The hard starting makes me wonder about the fuel supply, a careful visual check of the fuel lines, vent lines and primer bulb (if that saw has one) might show you something, those things have a life. They get soft, crack, or rot, and they can pull off their connections over time. Checking tightness of all bolts, particularly the head bolts and carb bolts (air leaks) is simple and quick too. Also, if there is a decomp button on this saw, that could be the issue with hard start and low compression. That device is a simple cheap replacement also. Stepping back a little, I am wondering if something got 'disturbed' in there during the roll over 'event'.
I am not a saw guy, but I fix my own because we don't have a reliable and trustworthy place around here that I have found yet. I just take my time and don't work faster than I can think it through. You don't need any fancy tools until you get down to splitting cases and doing full rebuilds. A pair of hemostats can be very handy for running the tubing and some wires.
I have never worked on a Stihl, all my stuff is Husky, and I don't know your saw, but this stuff is very learnable and you are a smart guy who takes care of his stuff. Your saw has a lot of important things in it's favor: It is a one-owner saw, it has good fuel and oil be run through it on a regular basis, and it has consistent use without abuse (excepting the little rollover affair ;D ).
See what the 2nd guy says and you might want to make it a little challenge for him. When you drop it off consider telling him that you had it to the 'other guy' who sold you the saw and he couldn't fix the issue and you are looking for a new dealer for your future business.
I began teaching myself to fix these out of self-defense, because I refuse to just 'buy a new one' when there is a problem and too many of these dealers have that attitude. I wish you were closer, I would be all over that thing in a New York minute.
If you should get to the point of replacing the saw, DO NOT discard it. Send it to me or one of the better guys here and we will figure it out. I'll make you a deal that is hard to refuse. :D
Best of luck, keep us in the loop please.
OGH,
The saw was not involved in the ATV flipping incident - it was hanging in the shed at the time. I was spraying weeds and my 15 gallon Fimco sprayer is what needs repair from that - which looks pretty straight forward when I get a new sprayer wand and electric wire and plug in connection. The saw was hard to start before but I cannot crank it at all now and that could be because of something with the saw itself or because I was too banged up to pull as hard and long as I used to.
I will definitely recover the saw and if I can't fix or get it fixed I will keep it for parts. I also will not be buying a replacement saw from that dealer. I will see what the new dealer repair guru says. I'll keep looking for a good saw mechanic. I have a neighbor who is pretty good with mowers but does not like to work on saws.
I remember moving to SC when I was in USMC and had trouble with my old Ford (Yes I owned a Ford at one time - it was a low point in my life :D) and it was hard to keep running and I knew nobody in the area so I took it to a dealer I just found on my own. I was strapped for cash and told him not to do anything till he gave me an estimate. I called that evening and asked and they said it was ready and I saw dollar signs flash across my eyes and was alarmed till the guy told me it was only $3. A bolt in the carb had just loosened and he tightened it. He said that was common in that model but could have sold me a new carb or fuel pump or other parts and I would not have known better. The best part was after that I had a mechanic I could trust when needed. They did any repair work and we bought our tires from them as long as we were there.
Not about the saw, but the sprayer.
I've had a Fimco sprayer for more years than I remember, mounted on a rotary cutter.
Long story short, Chapin just came out with one that has the large tank to just hold water, and separate, smaller concentrate tanks.
My trouble with the Fimco was not that it didn't work fine, but it was always guesswork to figure out how much to mix in the 40 gallon tank.
The new Chapin allows me to swap out the concentrate tanks, and go do a small amount of spot spraying.
I haven't had the chance to swap out the rig, but the new system came. You can buy the concentrate tanks separately, and have several ready to go. I'm keeping one with detergent, to wash out the guts before switching from herbicide, to insecticide, etc. They make smaller ones than this one.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07N1G6Z88/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07N1G6Z88/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I sure do like that sprayer. That would be perfect for me. Looks like it's time replace the old Fimco. Thanks for posting that.
Tom,
Now I know you are trying to kill me! If I can flip a 4 wheeler with a 15 gallon sprayer in the front basket how long do you think I will make it with a 25 gallon tank there instead? :D
I do like separate mix tank but I basically just use one mix in that tank and as I remember about 20 oz to 15 gallons makes the right mix for my use and 20 oz pop bottles are common and readily available.
The tank fits well in the basket of the 4 wheeler and the winch cable holds it in there very well (Which I can prove now) and that is great for stability going up steep slopes however it would be better stability strapped on the back rack going down the slopes. I guess in the future I will just spray going uphill then go down a safer slope and get a new run at it. Either that or fill the big tank, park the ATV then walk around with the 1.5 gallon hand sprayer and refill from the big tank as needed.
Here's the one it's replacing. I have two pumps. Either can be operated by their switch up near the driver's seat. One is high pressure, low volume, for spot spraying with a wand that stays in reach from the seat. The other is a lower pressure, higher volume. I can spray a 30 foot swath with that second pump, and the "boom" on the back.
Chapin does make that new split version in smaller sizes, but I don't remember exactly what sizes, right off.
<br
>(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35437/IMG_1016_28129~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1595954314)
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 28, 2020, 10:14:55 AM
OGH,
The saw was not involved in the ATV flipping incident - it was hanging in the shed at the time. I was spraying weeds and my 15 gallon Fimco sprayer is what needs repair from that - which looks pretty straight forward when I get a new sprayer wand and electric wire and plug in connection. The saw was hard to start before but I cannot crank it at all now and that could be because of something with the saw itself or because I was too banged up to pull as hard and long as I used to.
I will definitely recover the saw and if I can't fix or get it fixed I will keep it for parts. I also will not be buying a replacement saw from that dealer. I will see what the new dealer repair guru says. I'll keep looking for a good saw mechanic. I have a neighbor who is pretty good with mowers but does not like to work on saws.
I remember moving to SC when I was in USMC and had trouble with my old Ford (Yes I owned a Ford at one time - it was a low point in my life :D) and it was hard to keep running and I knew nobody in the area so I took it to a dealer I just found on my own. I was strapped for cash and told him not to do anything till he gave me an estimate. I called that evening and asked and they said it was ready and I saw dollar signs flash across my eyes and was alarmed till the guy told me it was only $3. A bolt in the carb had just loosened and he tightened it. He said that was common in that model but could have sold me a new carb or fuel pump or other parts and I would not have known better. The best part was after that I had a mechanic I could trust when needed. They did any repair work and we bought our tires from them as long as we were there.
Sorry, I don't know how I got that wrong in my head. Anyway, that saw has got to be fixable, nothing else makes sense.
Finding good service people is tough. We just lost our auto mechanic (retired, not dead yet) after 30 years with him and are hard pressed to find another one, but I think we got lucky. I can work on vehicles when I have to, but I hate it and would rather pay somebody with the right tools and skills to do it right, in half the time I could. More than 25 years ago my wife burned a couple of pistons in her station wagon. We didn't have the cash for an engine rebuild or a replacement vehicle and our mechanic didn't have the time to tie up a bay in his shop to do the work anyway. But he said to me "You can do this, I know you can. Here is a torque list for all the bolts and all the other setup specs you need, here are my torque wrenches and some other tools you will need. Call when we you have it apart and I'll come take a look." So I took it apart and called him. He came over, confirmed the diagnosis, found a few small things that should also be fixed, gave me some pointers and said he would come back before I finished, which he did. He checked my work and gave his blessing to finish it up. It ran fine. I hated every minute doing that work, but I did get it done and like it or not, I saved a lot of money.
The moral is: "keep seeking and eventually you shall find what you seek".
OGH,
One of the things we used to have available to us when I was in the USMC was an auto hobby shop. It was typically run by an old experienced mechanic and had just about ever tool you could need to work on a vehicle. I'd take mine in and say "Its making this noise, or leaking here, or such. Is that something I can fix?" He'd look at it and point out some part and say "That piece needs to be replaced. Get the part and an extra gasket or such and bring it back and I'll help if you have any problems." I'd go get the parts he recommended, check out a bay and a tool set and take off the old part and put the new one on. About half the time I could do it alone but if I hit a snag I'd go get the shop manager and he'd get me some special tool or show me some trick he knew to fix it. I never got into any real big repair jobs but replacing a water pump or brake piston or such was do-able.
I got out my old rebuilt MS 440 today and dumped what little gas was left from last year when it was rebuilt and after about 30 or so hard pulls it finally popped, sputtered and died a few times then I finally got it running so I guess I will be able to use it as a back up till I get a second opinion on the 441 and possibly find a better repair source.
Just out of curiosity, what do you suppose changes on the 30th pull that the previous 29 tries didn't have? I'd think that if it didn't start after 10 tries, it never would.
I sure wish I knew and I'd change it on the second pull. :D
Maybe others here can shed some light on the suspected causes.
I like that statement you made about changing your ways and using the smaller 1 gal sprayer more. I quit using my 15 gal atv sprayer that way, now it only usually rides in the loader bucket of the tractor.
Actually that would be much more efficient at spot application than area wide coverage too. That is still a likely option at least for this season.
Quote from: Tom King on July 28, 2020, 10:47:12 AM
Not about the saw, but the sprayer.
I've had a Fimco sprayer for more years than I remember, mounted on a rotary cutter.
Long story short, Chapin just came out with one that has the large tank to just hold water, and separate, smaller concentrate tanks.
My trouble with the Fimco was not that it didn't work fine, but it was always guesswork to figure out how much to mix in the 40 gallon tank.
The new Chapin allows me to swap out the concentrate tanks, and go do a small amount of spot spraying.
I haven't had the chance to swap out the rig, but the new system came. You can buy the concentrate tanks separately, and have several ready to go. I'm keeping one with detergent, to wash out the guts before switching from herbicide, to insecticide, etc. They make smaller ones than this one.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07N1G6Z88/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07N1G6Z88/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Tom Thanks for posting about this sprayer. I do a ton of spot spraying and some days change chemical three of four times a day. I will look into one of these the next time my old Fimco needs a pump.
I expected there would be others with the same issues, and would appreciate the benefits. I spray a few different chemicals too.
For pump sprayers, these 2 and 3 gallon cheap ones, from Tractor Supply, are pretty good. I especially like the pressure relief valve. I have a utility sink in this shed just for taking care of the mixers. I buy them when they are on sale for about 30 bucks for a box with two in it. I keep one of those with detergent in it too, and swap out the wand after washing it, after use.
They do develop some problems, and no replacement parts available, but I just keep a couple of extra ones to pull parts off of. Haven't had much trouble, but in the three years that I've been using them, one pressure relief valve, and one trigger assembly went bad.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35437/IMG_0900~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1596041465)
Dang! Tom collects sprayers like the MagicMan collects LogRites!
The guy who said the compression should be 90 psi is getting mixed up with something. Should be more like 140 to 160. They run OK at 120 usually. Likely he has a gauge that just won't read low displacement equipment, so he may be factoring that in to his analysis.
I think those saws are borderline too lean off the shelf. And, something does not need to change much and you have aluminum melted in to your rings.
Zero,
That is mostly Greek to me but it sounds like the tech did not check something correctly or with the right gauge. I have not been over to pick it up yet and take it to the next repair shop for a second opinion. Any thoughts on likely problems and whether it is likely worth fixing or not?
It's definitely worth fixing if it is not broke broke, like run over or dropped out of a tree broke.
If it indeed has lost compression you are at a big disadvantage if you don't do this yourself, which is why so many of us have gotten in to it to start with.
Somebody will give you good money for that saw on eBay because they can fix it for $40.
So, I think I would eBay the saw and buy a new one before I would pay a dealer $300 or $400 hundred bucks.
An engine of any kind does not just lose compression like you lost your car keys .There is a reason for it .Find that you got it licked .Could be a completely blown out crankshaft seal .I've seen that too .
Fact one of my 038 mags blew a seal out twice .The third time I red lock-tited it .It will take heat if I ever need to do it again to remove it .
I'll give you $100 for it towards your new saw purchase?
Its worth more than that to me for parts.
Well, this may be another mistake I have made but I had the new Stihl dealer rebuild this saw for me. $632!!! $350 for parts and $237 for labor. $10 Misc (I assume shop rags and WD40, etc) and $35 tax. I was expecting around $500 based on their discussion. Their mechanic quit the day I turned in my saw so I don't know if the new one was just slow or it that is reasonable, well, normal on labor. The cylinder & piston was over $310 and was biggest parts cost.
I tested it in the shop and it did crank readily and sounds good. We will see how it holds up.
Man, that sucks. Lets see how it holds up with some run time. For that cost, it should run, cut, and stack it in the truck.
I agree, that does suck, especially when I realized that's in US dollars. I just replaced my 441 piston with OEM parts and it was over $200 CDN. I've seen the prices in the US and a good Meteor replacement could have been way cheaper. It's pretty easy work, especially with YouTube and Forestry Forum. Good luck with the saw, I'm sure it will last long now!
The Stihl dealer called me today and they want me to rebuild a scored MS460 for a friend of one of their employees. They obviously have rules for what they can and cannot do. Unless I run in to something unusual I will clean the cylinder, put an OEM piston in and charge them $100.
You should really learn to do this. Find you an old junk saw and figure out what makes it tic .
A chainsaw engine is not a lunar rocket .By design a 2 cycle is about as simple as any internal combustion engine ever made and the least understood .If a person were really interested in learning about them they'll never know until they delve into it .
Now dealers ,any dealer no matter if it's a chainsaw, automobile or a dishwasher will not be inexpensive .That's just the way it is and always has been and will be forever .
Now that being said it's none of my business what a person does with their stuff .At this stage of life money is not that big of an issue, finding somebody with enough brain power to repair things is .I've came to the conclusion to just do it myself no matter what it is .I do however verbally assault my computer from time to time when it doesn't do what I want it to do .It doesn't mind too well .
If you've never done engine work, a chainsaw is a great place to learn. I really don't like letting what saw shops exist now do this kind of work, because they will tend to repair a saw (like Howard's) without finding the root cause. They'll usually assume you straight gassed it, and didn't look into it to find the leaking crank seal, lean carb settings, or other issues that caused the problem. I have never seen a saw "wore out" to the point where they lost compression. I've had saws that pro pulp cutter ran for years, the body of the saw was wired together but the internals were still very good. I would be very cautious of just running your saw. If I can't figure out my saws myself, they've unfortunately become not worth fixing. I had one saw that a spark plug failed and destroyed the P&C, and it would've cost $500-600 to have a shop repair it. I might as well get a new saw for that, is my thinking. I did get an aftermarket P&C and repair it myself for about $150.
Funny you should mention straight gas. They were kind enough to leave it in the tank.